Stephane Dion & The Economy

[Jobu]

A caller into CPAC's Primetime Politics tonight made a good point. Why on earth would we trust Stephane Dion to run this country's economy? Quite apart from the devastating and hardly neutral carbon tax, consider:

- He hasn't been able to pay back his personal debts for years

- His party is virtually insolvent

- Bob Rae has apparently been appointed to compensate for Dion, he of the infamous Ontario economy of the early 1990s

Those in glass houses...

[capricorn]

Yeah. Putting Bob Rae front and centre when attacking the PMs economics is not good optics. Best for Rae not to comment too much on the supposed economic disaster looming in Canada.

[fellowtraveller]

Bob Rae will be the next Liberal leader.

If the Liberals had elected him leader last time, he would have defeated Harper and gained a minority in 2006.

[Jobu]

Bob Rae will be the next Liberal leader.

If the Liberals had elected him leader last time, he would have defeated Harper and gained a minority in 2006.

I'm not so sure about that, particularly in today's environment. Rae stepping in as Dion's surrogate is music to the ears of Conservatives, especially when it comes to Ontario. There are not many politicians with as little credibility on the economy as Rae.

Having said that, it is refreshing to listen to Rae over Dion when it comes to eloquence and charisma. I am sure it will help the Liberal base, or at least the energy at their campaign stops.

Edited September 17, 2008 by Jobu

[Moonbox]

I've actually met Bob Rae and he's a very smart and charismatic guy but I doubt he'd do any better than Dion for the Liberals. Why?

Because he was one of Ontario's worst premier and what he did to our province is still fresh in everyone's mind. Bob Rae as PM would alienate the one and only province the Liberals have a strong presence in.

Edited September 17, 2008 by Moonbox

[Wild Bill]

Bob Rae will be the next Liberal leader.

If the Liberals had elected him leader last time, he would have defeated Harper and gained a minority in 2006.

I also think you're all wet on this one! The depth of animosity for Bob Rae here in Ontario can be downright vicious! It amazes me that Ontario NDP fans seem oblivious to it!

My father-in-law is an elderly Italian gentleman who has fiercely supported the Liberals since he came to Canada in 1950. This is far from unusual in his demographic but sometimes I swore he'd vote for a Charles Manson if he were a Liberal! I learned quickly to curb my tongue at family dinners.

Last week he told me he was voting Tory! You could have knocked me over with a feather!

Apparently he had received a call from a Liberal fundraiser in Ottawa who made no bones about the fact that they desperately needed cash donations from folks like him. My father-in-law tore a strip off him! He told him that as long as Bob Rae was in the Liberal Party he wouldn't be giving a dime! What's more, he was going to vote Tory!

He told them that Bob Rae had set Ontario back 50 years after his disastrous term in power as Ontario's premier.

If such a loyal Liberal partisan as he could have such a seismic change of heart I can't help but think he's far from the only one!

[kengs333]

I've actually met Bob Rae and he's a very smart and charismatic guy but I doubt he'd do any better than Dion for the Liberals. Why?

Because he was one of Ontario's worst premier and what he did to our province is still fresh in everyone's mind. Bob Rae as PM would alienate the one and only province the Liberals have a strong presence in.

Yeah, a distant second to Mike Harris. I think the NDP under Rae was perhaps inexperienced and made mistakes, but Harris instituted a deliberate and calculated systemic "revolution" that made such a shambles of Ontario that the chances of the PCs being relected in the next 30 years is remote at best.

[noahbody]

Bob Rae will be the next Liberal leader.

If the Liberals had elected him leader last time, he would have defeated Harper and gained a minority in 2006.

Right after he jumped from an airplane and landed safely in a bowl of soup.

[kengs333]

He told them that Bob Rae had set Ontario back 50 years after his disastrous term in power as Ontario's premier.

The thing is that 50 years ago Leslie Frost was Premier and Ontario had an excellent economy, so I'm not sure what the analogy fits.

The NDP came to power in a difficult situation and the province did manage to weather predicament well enough. The Liberals were the ones who set up the NDP in some respects, and I doubt that the PCs could have managed the situation any better. They certainly didn't on the federal level.

The whole deal with Rae just goes to show how ignorant the average elector is; first, the NDP was put in power essentially because people didn't want the Liberals or PCs, and then when it doesn't go so well people make superficial judgements about the guy and then figure we better vote in the PCs again, even though Harris was by no means a Bill Davis.

[fellowtraveller]

"Bob Rae could never be elected in Ontario blah blah blah."

In the 2006, after a horrific Liberal scandal, the Liberal still elected more MPs in Ontario than all other parties combined.

People have short memories/are willing to forgive much, half the population has forgotten Raes blunders and the other half would vote Liberal as a reflex action.

Despite Raes horrific past, he waas easily elected in his own Toronto/Ontario riding and will be again. No surprise there.

[Moonbox]

Yeah, a distant second to Mike Harris. I think the NDP under Rae was perhaps inexperienced and made mistakes, but Harris instituted a deliberate and calculated systemic "revolution" that made such a shambles of Ontario that the chances of the PCs being relected in the next 30 years is remote at best.

and that's simply not true. The NDP was both inexperienced and idiotic. Their economic policy was disastrous and they had the lowest approval rating of an Ontario government EVER (it was like 9%). They were BY FAR the worst government Ontario has ever had.

Harris brought the Ontario budget back in line from an almost $10 billion Rae deficit in just a few years all while having transfer payments from the federal government slashed on him. He and Rae both inherited shitty situations but where Harris lifted Ontario's economy back up and put more money in my wallet, Rae sent Ontario to it's highest deficit ever and made sure the NDP virtually dissapeared provincially.

Harris was re-elected for a second term and remained popular. Old man Eves and John Tory with his idiotic faith-based schooling made sure crybaby Dalton got re-elected. PC support right now in Ontario according to polls is around 30%. That's hardly the disastrous scenario you describe in your 'next 30 years' comment.

[Moonbox]

"Bob Rae could never be elected in Ontario blah blah blah."

In the 2006, after a horrific Liberal scandal, the Liberal still elected more MPs in Ontario than all other parties combined.

People have short memories/are willing to forgive much, half the population has forgotten Raes blunders and the other half would vote Liberal as a reflex action.

Despite Raes horrific past, he waas easily elected in his own Toronto/Ontario riding and will be again. No surprise there.

He's a prominent political figure. People vote for big shots most of the time. If you think a candidate has a chance at PM, he starts to look VERY strong in his own riding.

I think you really overestimate Ontario's forgetfulness for Rae's past blunders. Even IF (and I think it's a stretch) most of Ontario completely forgave his disastrous term as premier, you can be CERTAIN the opposition would be reminding us.

[fellowtraveller]

He's a prominent political figure. People vote for big shots most of the time. If you think a candidate has a chance at PM, he starts to look VERY strong in his own riding.

I think you really overestimate Ontario's forgetfulness for Rae's past blunders. Even IF (and I think it's a stretch) most of Ontario completely forgave his disastrous term as premier, you can be CERTAIN the opposition would be reminding us.

Well, the province as a whole forgave and forgot the repulsive actions of the Federal Liberals in record time, why not something much older?

Rae was Premier 13 years ago, I can guarantee that the vast majority either don't know or don't care what happened then.

The rest of Canada didn't know or care then and that hasn't changed.

[Wild Bill]

Well, the province as a whole forgave and forgot the repulsive actions of the Federal Liberals in record time, why not something much older?

Rae was Premier 13 years ago, I can guarantee that the vast majority either don't know or don't care what happened then.

The rest of Canada didn't know or care then and that hasn't changed.

Ah, but any federal party will need seats in Ontario. 13 years is hardly a long time when people can expect to live (and vote!) into their 80's and longer. Just eavesdrop in any coffee shop when folks are discussing Rae and you'll soon see that Ontarioans have not forgotten.

Well, any coffee shop outside of Toronto, anyway! Toronto is it's own planet, after all!

As a casualty of Rae's term as premier, I think I see the difference between Rae's reign and that of Harris.

Harris may have hurt those who didn't work but Rae hurt all of those who did! Even his own union buddies refused to support him, at the end.

[capricorn]

Well, the province as a whole forgave and forgot the repulsive actions of the Federal Liberals in record time, why not something much older?

If you're referring to McGuinty, for the most part the Liberal provincial win was due to the massive rejection of John Tory's faith based schools campaign policy. There's also something to be said about Ontarians generally preferring a Liberal government provincially when the Tories rule federally and vice versa.

Rae was Premier 13 years ago, I can guarantee that the vast majority either don't know or don't care what happened then.

Maybe so. Yet, I think the delegates at the December '06 convention were very cognizant about Rae's negatives as Ontario's Premier and this weighed heavily in rejecting him as Liberal leader.

The rest of Canada didn't know or care then and that hasn't changed.

Rae cannot camouflage his past. It's out there and still attracts criticism and media time.

[fellowtraveller]

Maybe so. Yet, I think the delegates at the December '06 convention were very cognizant about Rae's negatives as Ontario's Premier and this weighed heavily in rejecting him as Liberal leader.

It had little to do with that. Rae and Iggy and Kenndedy lost because they were considered loose cannons when compared to Dion, The Safe Guy.

They overlooked that he was also The Wrong Guy, everybodys second choice.

If you're referring to McGuinty,

No, I'm talking about the province of Ontario as whole that gave the L:iberals 75 fedral seats in 2004 and 54 in 2006, after years of proven theft and the government of Mr Dithers. That Ontario.

Nothing has changed. He'd do well nationally and OK in Ontario, but not enough to unseat Harper now.

[Moonbox]

It had little to do with that. Rae and Iggy and Kenndedy lost because they were considered loose cannons when compared to Dion, The Safe Guy.

Oh I suppose you know that as a close insider of the Liberal Party. You're good friends with most of them is that right? Are you even from Ontario? People most certainly DO remember what he did here. He managed to alienate the right and middle classes and at the same time the LEFT as well! I can't even think of a comparison for his government in Ontario. Not even the Trudeau/Mulroney federal governments were as bad as Rae's in Ontario.

No, I'm talking about the province of Ontario as whole that gave the L:iberals 75 fedral seats in 2004 and 54 in 2006, after years of proven theft and the government of Mr Dithers. That Ontario.

Nothing has changed. He'd do well nationally and OK in Ontario, but not enough to unseat Harper now.

Ernie Eves was an old fart that nobody wanted to vote for. John Tory ran the worst campaign in Ontario's history. Make no mistake, McGuinty is NOT a particularly popular Premier, but the Tories haven't been able to manage anything better than bumbling old men in Ontario elections since Mike Harris resigned so there's really no competition.

The Provincial Liberals will flop in the next provincial election.

[capricorn]

It had little to do with that. Rae and Iggy and Kenndedy lost because they were considered loose cannons when compared to Dion, The Safe Guy.

There are plenty of observers that say Rae's record and reputation in Ontario was a factor.

No, I'm talking about the province of Ontario as whole that gave the L:iberals 75 fedral seats in 2004 and 54 in 2006, after years of proven theft and the government of Mr Dithers. That Ontario.

Nothing has changed. He'd do well nationally and OK in Ontario, but not enough to unseat Harper now.

I'm hoping Dalton McGuinty runs for and wins the federal Liberal leadership. That would rid Ontario of a liability and deliver a new loser to the federal Liberals. A double whammy.

[Moonbox]

There are plenty of observers that say Rae's record and reputation in Ontario was a factor.

I'm hoping Dalton McGuinty runs for and wins the federal Liberal leadership. That would rid Ontario of a liability and deliver a new loser to the federal Liberals. A double whammy.

haha that made me laugh out loud at work. That's certainly the best case scenario. I don't think that they will though because I don't think they'll replace one losing weenie for another weenie.

[fellowtraveller]

Oh I suppose you know that as a close insider of the Liberal Party. You're good friends with most of them is that right?

Try to set aside your personal antipathy for Rae and review the facts. Rae: defector from another Party, no Liberal debts. Ignatieff: lived most of his life outside Canada, no political debts owed here, Kennedy: young and unknown outside Ontario. That left Stephan Dion, second choice of everybody, long time Chretienite. Easy pick as leader, and the wrong choice to win an election.

The Provincial Liberals will flop in the next provincial election.

Geez, you really are on a Ontario, center of the Universe kick.

I'm hoping Dalton McGuinty runs for and wins the federal Liberal leadership. That would rid Ontario of a liability and deliver a new loser to the federal Liberals. A double whammy.

I would donate cash to see this happen.