McHale running as an Independent in election

[charter.rights]

The only one twisting anything here is you. The war that the Iroquois waged against the Huron and Neutrals is well documented. If you do not accept these accounts, then there is no validity to any claim that SN now makes.

Actually they are not well documented. They are the fabrication of Hollywood writers for the most part. The myths grew from there. Of course the stories do show up in sixth grade texts but a modern and authentic historian rejects it all as hogwash.

Even the Jesuits Relations, the for most historical text on post contact natives does not provide the documents you claim exist. Sure there are witness accounts of skirmishes between the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat, but there are no more volatile than heated arguments and tussles over land and hunting rights. The real wedge was the French trying to use them as pawns in the French and British conflicts.

As I mentioned earlier, the truth is that the Neutrals, the Petun and the Cats were adopted by the Seneca Nation. And since the Great Law requires that one relinquish their birth nation after they have been adopted into the Confederacy, the Neutrals, the Petun and the Cat Nations ceased to exist. Their stories, traditions songs and practices however, were incorporated in Seneca traditions and now form an important part of overall Haudenosaunee culture.

Your beliefs about native matters are a series of lies you continue to tell yourself. Maybe it is time you wise up instead of living in lies and myths.

[kengs333]

Actually they are not well documented. They are the fabrication of Hollywood writers for the most part. The myths grew from there. Of course the stories do show up in sixth grade texts but a modern and authentic historian rejects it all as hogwash.

I don't think that "Hollywood" ever produced a movie about the Iroquois war against the Huron and Neutrals, Hollywood in general avoiding anything that has to do with Canadian history

My middle school (grades 6 to 8) history courses presented a very sanitized and idealized portrayal of Indians, quite the opposite which you persistantly and ignorantly claim.

Name one "modern and authentic" historian that supports your warped views.

Even the Jesuits Relations, the for most historical text on post contact natives does not provide the documents you claim exist. Sure there are witness accounts of skirmishes between the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat, but there are no more volatile than heated arguments and tussles over land and hunting rights. The real wedge was the French trying to use them as pawns in the French and British conflicts.

"On 19 April, 1652, an entry in the "Journal" optimistically rehearses the news brought on 10 March, by an escaped Huron captive, to the effect that the Neutrals had formed an alliance with the Andastes against the Iroquois; that the Senecas, who had gone on the warpath against the Neutrals, had suffered so serious a defeat that the families of the Senecas were constrained to flee from Sonnontouan, and betake themselves to Ononen, otherwise Goioguen, a Cayuga town (Journ. des Jés., 166-67; Clev. ed., XXXVII, 97). The general dispersion of the Neutrals, following close on their disaster at the hands of the Iroquois, is described in Relation 1651 (Queb. ed., 4, 2; Clev. ed. XXXVI, 177); but the direction of their flight is not indicated, save by the words; "they fled still further from the rage and cruelty of the conquerors"—which means, no doubt, that the general trend of their precipitous retreat was towards the West. The great number of prisoners carried off by the Iroquois is mentioned particularly, and especially the young women led into captivity to become wives of their captors. "

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07565a.htm

As I mentioned earlier, the truth is that the Neutrals, the Petun and the Cats were adopted by the Seneca Nation. And since the Great Law requires that one relinquish their birth nation after they have been adopted into the Confederacy, the Neutrals, the Petun and the Cat Nations ceased to exist. Their stories, traditions songs and practices however, were incorporated in Seneca traditions and now form an important part of overall Haudenosaunee culture.

Based on what?

[tango]

http://www.foundlocally.com/Hamilton/local...toryIndians.htm

Hamilton History - Native Indians & Early Explorers

The first humans, the Clovis people, arrived in Niagara Region almost 12,000 years ago, around the time of the birth of the Falls, when the land was tundra with spruce forests. These nomadic hunters camped along the old Lake Erie shoreline, in small dwellings, and left little behind except chipped stones, likely used to hunt caribou, mastodons, moose and elk.

By 9,500 years ago deciduous forest covered southernmost Ontario, supporting wildlife like deer, moose, fish and plants, enabling small groups to hunt in the winter, coming together into larger groups during the summer, to fish at shorelines and at the mouths of rivers.

About 2,000 years ago, the Woodland Period brought Iroquois culture in southern Ontario. These peoples began agriculture based on crops of corn, bean and squash, which supported a boom in population and a rich culture with small palisaded villages in which extended families occupied individual longhouses. They developed ceramics technology and forged strong inter-village alliances.

By the time the European explorers and missionaries arrived in the early 1600s, the Iroquoian villages had elected chiefs and were allied within powerful tribal confederacies. The Neutral Indians were the leaders of a group of ten tribes of the Iroquois Nation. Other tribes included the Seneca, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Huron, Petun, Erie and the Susquehannock. The French explorers , gave this Indian tribe the name "Neutrals", because of their position and status as peace keepers between the warring Hurons and Iroquois.

Anyone who proposes that Six Nations do not have ancestral land rights in Ontario is mis-informed. From Clovis to today ... people of the Five Nations lived around Lakes Ontario and Erie. The only question is the extent of their territory.

Along with their historical occupancy were the treaties that allow us to live here, treaties that are still honoured by Indigenous Nations.

From these two facts, solutions can be generated by those willing to engage in real discussion instead of pointless debate.

Since Candidate McHale specializes in misinformation and pointless 'debate' and even more pointless protest, he has absolutely nothing to offer to the situation, imo.

Edited October 2, 2008 by tango

[charter.rights]

I don't think that "Hollywood" ever produced a movie about the Iroquois war against the Huron and Neutrals, Hollywood in general avoiding anything that has to do with Canadian history

My middle school (grades 6 to 8) history courses presented a very sanitized and idealized portrayal of Indians, quite the opposite which you persistantly and ignorantly claim.

Name one "modern and authentic" historian that supports your warped views.

"On 19 April, 1652, an entry in the "Journal" optimistically rehearses the news brought on 10 March, by an escaped Huron captive, to the effect that the Neutrals had formed an alliance with the Andastes against the Iroquois; that the Senecas, who had gone on the warpath against the Neutrals, had suffered so serious a defeat that the families of the Senecas were constrained to flee from Sonnontouan, and betake themselves to Ononen, otherwise Goioguen, a Cayuga town (Journ. des Jés., 166-67; Clev. ed., XXXVII, 97). The general dispersion of the Neutrals, following close on their disaster at the hands of the Iroquois, is described in Relation 1651 (Queb. ed., 4, 2; Clev. ed. XXXVI, 177); but the direction of their flight is not indicated, save by the words; "they fled still further from the rage and cruelty of the conquerors"—which means, no doubt, that the general trend of their precipitous retreat was towards the West. The great number of prisoners carried off by the Iroquois is mentioned particularly, and especially the young women led into captivity to become wives of their captors. "

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07565a.htm

Based on what?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! LOL ROTFLMAO!!!!!

Using "Catholic history" to refute native history ! Ha ha ha ha. That is like going to the Japanese to try to explain the defeat of the Americans in WW2. Ha ha ha ha.

Only someone intellectually immature would try to use that kind of resource. Are you really a McHale fan? It does really show your connection to him......

Remember too, that the Jesuit Relations was written in French and requires a fairly established understanding of that language to understand how things were written in context.

You do realize that Catholic apologetic is design for one thing?

[kengs333]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Are you serious? You consider that to be a legitimate historical source????????

[Wild Bill]

Made a run yesterday from Stoney Creek to Port Dover, to make a pickup from a customer. I drove through Glanbrook into Haldiman-Norfolk along HWY 3, which is right through McHale's riding.

I was struck by the sign count. Not that many, over all. The majority seemed to be Dianne Finley signs. A very few for her Liberal opponent. Not a single NDP that I noticed!

The significant thing was that there was a surprising number for McHale!

Of course, signs have only a loose connection to actual support but still, it's interesting...

[Who's Doing What?]

http://www.foundlocally.com/Hamilton/local...toryIndians.htm

Hamilton History - Native Indians & Early Explorers

The first humans, the Clovis people, arrived in Niagara Region almost 12,000 years ago, around the time of the birth of the Falls, when the land was tundra with spruce forests. These nomadic hunters camped along the old Lake Erie shoreline, in small dwellings, and left little behind except chipped stones, likely used to hunt caribou, mastodons, moose and elk.

Anyone who proposes that Six Nations do not have ancestral land rights in Ontario is mis-informed. From Clovis to today ... people of the Five Nations lived around Lakes Ontario and Erie. The only question is the extent of their territory.

Ummm....You do understand that the Clovis people, like the spear tip that gave them their name, were of European origin, right?

[kengs333]

Ummm....You do understand that the Clovis people, like the spear tip that gave them their name, were of European origin, right?

Genetic testing done on First Nations peoples indicate that the Ojibway are of European origin, unlike other native groups that came to this continent by way of Asia. In all likelihood, the ancestors of the Ojibway would have been the first occupants of what in now southern Ontario, which basically means that Europeans have ancestral rights to this region.

[charter.rights]

Genetic testing done on First Nations peoples indicate that the Ojibway are of European origin, unlike other native groups that came to this continent by way of Asia. In all likelihood, the ancestors of the Ojibway would have been the first occupants of what in now southern Ontario, which basically means that Europeans have ancestral rights to this region.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! More of your racial assertions no doubt. Those who might think that natives anywhere are related to Europeans are dreamers.

The fact is that natives populated the Americas long before Europe was populated from Africa. IF and that is a big IF there is a correlation to be made, it might be that Natives share the common ancestry out of Africa.

All the rest is racist bunk.

[Smallc]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! More of your racial assertions no doubt. Those who might think that natives anywhere are related to Europeans are dreamers.

The fact is that natives populated the Americas long before Europe was populated from Africa. IF and that is a big IF there is a correlation to be made, it might be that Natives share the common ancestry out of Africa.

All the rest is racist bunk.

Actually no, he is talking about scientific fact. Europeans are now known to have been here long ago. There are artifacts to prove it. This whole "First Nations" thing really needs to be redeveloped...or eliminated. It was on Discovery a while back and is on from time to time. I can't seem to find what I'm looking for on the internet, but it is quite real.

Edited October 6, 2008 by Smallc

[kengs333]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! More of your racial assertions no doubt. Those who might think that natives anywhere are related to Europeans are dreamers.

European origin means they were from what is now Europe. Has nothing to do with race.

The fact is that natives populated the Americas long before Europe was populated from Africa. IF and that is a big IF there is a correlation to be made, it might be that Natives share the common ancestry out of Africa.

Which explains why they are genetically related to Asians and have a similar physiology...

All the rest is racist bunk.

Why must you interpret everything in terms of race and racism?

The scientific evidence is based upon voluntary participation of numerous Native groups, and we have to be thankful to those people that they don't share your archaic notion of race and are willing to accept scientific evidence as to their origin.

[charter.rights]

European origin means they were from what is now Europe. Has nothing to do with race.

Which explains why they are genetically related to Asians and have a similar physiology...

Why must you interpret everything in terms of race and racism?

The scientific evidence is based upon voluntary participation of numerous Native groups, and we have to be thankful to those people that they don't share your archaic notion of race and are willing to accept scientific evidence as to their origin.

Mitochondrial DNA testing is not "accepted science" It is a theory based on some very sketchy links. You should looked into it ore before you go spouting some coonnection.

The archaeological fact so far, is that natives were in North America BEFORE Europeans migrated out of Africa to what is now Europe. How someone can amde a connection where one half didn't exist is beyond me.

Being a racist is a personal viewpoint. Denying it makes one a bigot.

[AngusThermopyle]

Mitochondrial DNA testing is not "accepted science"

You should tell that pile of codswallop to the thousands of scientists who are successfully using it in a plethora of disciplines, it might come as a shock to them.

The fact is that it does form a part of what is called "accepted" science, just because you deny it does not make it so. Given the fact that a trained chimp has a better grasp of science than you it does not surprise me at all that you would claim it invalid.

Do a little actual research before offering an opinion that flies in the face of accepted and proven knowledge. The study and use of mitochondrial DNA is helping to forge new inroads into our knowledge of ourselves as well as our knowledge of such things as cancer and genetically inherited diseases. Actually great advances in such area's have been and are being made, using, you guessed it, mitochondrial DNA. These are advances that can be shown to be real and factual, not faked or made up.

Just because it blows holes in one of your key points does not invalidate it. Your denial of fact illustrates nothing more than...well...denial, and your abysmal lack of knowledge concerning all subjects beyond whatever you can get away with making up.

The archaeological fact so far, is that natives were in North America BEFORE Europeans migrated out of Africa to what is now Europe.

Linky linky.

Edited October 6, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[kengs333]

Mitochondrial DNA testing is not "accepted science" It is a theory based on some very sketchy links. You should looked into it ore before you go spouting some coonnection.

Goodness! how silly can you get...

The archaeological fact so far, is that natives were in North America BEFORE Europeans migrated out of Africa to what is now Europe. How someone can amde a connection where one half didn't exist is beyond me.

The Ojibway originated from southern Europe, so are you saying that the Ojibway are direct descendants of black Africans?

As for white Europeans, everyone knows that they are descendants of Odin and do not come from Africa. Please get your facts straight.

Being a racist is a personal viewpoint. Denying it makes one a bigot.

So you're admitting that you're a bigot and a racist?

[tango]

Descendents of Odin?

Pretty weird stuff.

We all came from Africa, but some say there were several migrations. In fact it is known that the Aboriginal people of Australia migrated out of Africa about 100,000 years ago, so why could there not have been migration to ANorth America too? If you look at the globe, it makes more sense than going around the world the other way! However, that whole area of research is in an uproar because of what mtdna and new finds have shown.

Scientists Find 1.8-million-year-old Homo Erectus Skull

By Associated Press posted: 22 August 2005 03:43 pm ET

TBILISI, Georgia (AP) -- Archaeologists in the former Soviet republic of Georgia have unearthed a skull they say is 1.8 million years old and part of a find that holds that oldest traces of humankind's closest ancestors ever found in Europe.

The findings in Georgia, which researchers said were a million years older than any widely accepted pre-human remains in Europe, have provided additional evidence that Homo erectus left Africa a half-million years or more earlier than scientists had previously thought.

The 'Moundbuilders' sites in North America provide evidence of a sophisticated civilization living here long before the migrations from Asia. Since these original people seemed to be Caucasian, evidence of their civilization was covered up to continue the myth that the land was 'unoccupied'.

The archeological findings are inevitably polluted with politics and the race war.

There are those who refuse to believe that Caucasians came from Africa, and those who refuse to believe that North America was heavily populated with a Caucasian society (haplogroup x) long before the migration from Asia (haplogroups a,b,c,d) and before Columbus or Cartier set foot.

At this point, it's all anybody's guess. However, the mtdna research is incomplete since most Iroquoian communities refused to participate.

Fascinating thing is that the research seems consistent with Edgar Cayce's much maligned theories of Atlantis.

They suggested that, prior to 9,000 B.C., various hunter-gatherer groups occupied the region. These groups included people from the X haplogroup.

Extremely significant in light of the Cayce readings is the presence of haplogroup X in ancient Basque mtDNA. While popular press reports have often termed haplogroup X as "Caucasoid," this speculative idea has been generally discredited by researchers. In 1997, haplogroup X was discovered in about 3 percent of modern Native Americans and in ancient North American remains as well.

The X type is frequently found in modern descendants of the Iroquois and in ancient burials in Iroquois' lands. The X haplogroup has also been identified in the Middle East and, in 2001, it was found in a tribe living in the Altaic Mountains of the Gobi. All of these of course are areas where Cayce specifically stated Atlantean survivors fled in 10,000 B.C.

The Editors of Ancient Mysteries, along with John Van Auken, have hypothesized that the X haplogroup may be the genetic link to the ancient Atlanteans.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/..._genetica12.htm

Edited October 7, 2008 by tango

[kengs333]

Quote your sources; the second part doesn't come from the article, rather this website:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/..._genetica12.htm

I'm curious what charter.rights' response to your post will be.

As for Odin, that's how it has been passed down to us. It must be true.

[AngusThermopyle]

I'm curious what charter.rights' response to your post will be.

Denial denial denial.

Then a cheap insult

Then some made up stuff to support the denials.

Then another cheap insult or two to further support the denials and illustrate the obvious (in their mind anyway) superiority of the poster.

[tango]

Denial denial denial.

Then a cheap insult

Then some made up stuff to support the denials.

Then another cheap insult or two to further support the denials and illustrate the obvious (in their mind anyway) superiority of the poster.

Ya, but ... u down with the "Odin" schtick?

Edited October 7, 2008 by tango

[tango]

Quote your sources; the second part doesn't come from the article, rather this website:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/..._genetica12.htm

I'm curious what charter.rights' response to your post will be.

As for Odin, that's how it has been passed down to us. It must be true.

Oh yes ... passed down ... must be ...

Remind me ... where did Odin come from?

[M.Dancer]

The archaeological fact so far, is that natives were in North America BEFORE Europeans migrated out of Africa to what is now Europe. How someone can amde a connection where one half didn't exist is beyond me.

Not only is that not a fact, it isn't even a fact based on sketchy links. At best it is a pseudo-myth. Modern homo sapians, including europeans and amerindians all came originally from Africa.

Of course if they were to postulate they are not modern homosapiens but separate species a la Neandertal, then there is no reason to consider them people.

Not a pleasent line of reasoning but following the scatter brained rabbit down the hole never is as Alice learned...

[kengs333]

Not only is that not a fact, it isn't even a fact based on sketchy links. At best it is a pseudo-myth. Modern homo sapians, including europeans and amerindians all came originally from Africa.

Except for the Germanic peoples, who descend from Odin.

[M.Dancer]

Except for the Germanic peoples, who descend from Odin.

Ummm yeah.....sure, whatever....

.....backs away slowly...

[tango]

Oh ... and where did Odin come from?

And again ... aren't you straying far from the topic? And are you sure Candidate McHale wants to be associated with this ... um ... 'theory' ... which I believe is part of the 'theory' leading up to the 'superiority' of the Aryan peoples?

Edited October 7, 2008 by tango

[kengs333]

Oh ... and where did Odin come from?

And again ... aren't you straying far from the topic? And are you sure Candidate McHale wants to be associated with this ... um ... 'theory' ... which I believe is part of the 'theory' leading up to the 'superiority' of the Aryan peoples?

I'm not sure how this has anything to do with the Aryan people. The Germanic peoples descend from Odin, and that's just how it is.

As for where Odin comes from... the sevret knowledge of the Germanic peoples is only revealed to a select few--and that means NOT you...

Edited October 8, 2008 by kengs333

[M.Dancer]

I'm not sure how this has anything to do with the Aryan people. The Germanic peoples descend from Odin, and that's just how it is.

As for where Odin comes from... the sevret knowledge of the Germanic peoples is only revealed to a select few--and that means NOT you...

Do you believe this or are yiou just yanking his chain?