Smear tactics in Ottawa

Keepitsimple · May 27, 2008

How many Jewish members in Conservative caucus?
http://www.jewishtribune.ca/TribuneV2/content/view/596/35/

I'm sure many in the Jewish community haven't forgotten how many Jewish MPs the Liberals have had, how many who have served as ministers, how the Liberals appointed the first Jewish Chief Justice and how many were appointed judges based on their merit.

Harper has certainly made inroads on the issue of support for Israel. Dion has been front and center in support of Israel these last years to counter the claim that he is hands off and it is starting to get noticed in the Jewish community papers. He has hardly taken the Jewish community for granted.

The Jewish community has conservative and liberal elements in it. I suspect, if anything, conservative Jews have parked their support with the Liberals because the right wing in Canada had not been as supportive of them in the past. Now, we might see liberal and conservative minded Jews go to either party based on their social views.

The conclusion of your argument is pretty accurate. The Jewish community represents a fairly balanced cross-section of Canadian society and just like in Israel, there are Liberals and Conservatives - so ultimately, there should be a healthy distribution of voters. Having said that, Harper's attractiveness to Jews is his clarity of support for Israel. If Dion and the Liberals insist on continuing their "balanced and nuanced" approach, the Jewish lobbies will be inclined to throw more support behind Harper. Even if Jewish voters are mixed in their allegiance, the political base is a powerful "influencer".

Shakeyhands · May 27, 2008

It's funny how this board works, I was just marvelling at how one can be called an anti-semite in an unprovoked personal attack and then have the discussion turn to who the Jewish bloc vote for and support. Cool.

Silk out of a sows ear for sure.

jbg · May 30, 2008

The Jewish community has conservative and liberal elements in it. I suspect, if anything, conservative Jews have parked their support with the Liberals because the right wing in Canada had not been as supportive of them in the past. Now, we might see liberal and conservative minded Jews go to either party based on their social views.

That hasn't happened in the US yet despite the fact that the GOP has been far more pro-Israel since around 1968. Despite Nixon's hatred for Jews he recognized their political value, and Israel's strategic/military value to the US. Ford didn't serve long enough to have any imprint on Jewish issues. Carter was a disaster, as was Bush Jr. Reagan was fairly good and Bush Jr. almost as good as Harper.

jdobbin · June 4, 2008

The National Post talks about the Harper government "meanness."

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=561148

Most of the government's best efforts at re-connecting with voters smack of meanness: closure of the drug injection clinic in Vancouver (why not quietly exempt it from federal drug laws for another year and leave it up to the municipal authorities?); opposition to the repatriation of Omar Khadr (it now turns out he is a "likeable, funny and intelligent young man", according to his prison guards, and opinion seems to be shifting behind moves to extradite him from Guantanamo Bay for trial); the repeated assaults on Dalton McGuinty's Ontario government by Finance Minister Jim Flaherty and Environment Minister John Baird (why would Mr. Baird dismiss the carbon trading plan proposal from Mr. McGuinty and Quebec Premier, Jean Charest as "smoke and mirrors", rather than embrace it as a step in the same direction in which Ottawa is already heading?)

Argus · June 4, 2008

The National Post talks about the Harper government "meanness."
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=561148

Yes, I guess the Tories are mean to murdering terrorists, drug addicts and incompetent, dishonest liberal politicians. How terrible.

Liberals, meanwhile, are quite friendly with criminals and drug addicts - they all vote Liberal, after all, and don't mind attending fund raisers for terrorist groups which murder children.

jdobbin · June 4, 2008

Liberals, meanwhile, are quite friendly with criminals and drug addicts - they all vote Liberal, after all, and don't mind attending fund raisers for terrorist groups which murder children.

Seems to me that the ones friendly with criminals has been Bernier's girlfriend. The fact that the Conservative were thinking of making her a candidate is quite funny. Talk about a cozy relationship and Harper was not concerned in the least.

Last election, the Tories ran a Tamil candidate who was in support of the Tamil organization the Harper government later shut down? Mixed message for those that defend against murdered children.

Edited June 4, 2008 by jdobbin

noahbody · June 4, 2008

Seems to me that the ones friendly with criminals has been Bernier's girlfriend.

The Liberals were friendly with criminals too: themselves. (insert "but the Liberals")

The fact that the Conservative were thinking of making her a candidate is quite funny. Talk about a cozy relationship and Harper was not concerned in the least.

I guess if they knew about her background they likely wouldn't have considered it. Liberals did know about Gagliano's mafia connections before they put him into cabinet, which to me is a bit odd. Were you concerned then? If the mafia and wanted to infiltrate government, wouldn't infiltrating the Liberal Party be a great way in? There was plenty of evidence of organized crime, money in envelopes, people worried to testify, etc. Maybe Harper should call in the RCMP to investigate the Liberal Party for the security of Canada. How about it? (what's the hot key for "But the Liberals"?)

Edited June 4, 2008 by noahbody

jdobbin · June 4, 2008

The Liberals were friendly with criminals too: themselves. (insert "but the Liberals")

But the Liberals!

I guess if they knew about her background they likely wouldn't have considered it. Liberals did know about Gagliano's mafia connections before they put him into cabinet, which to me is a bit odd. Were you concerned then? If the mafia and wanted to infiltrate government, wouldn't infiltrating the Liberal Party be a great way in? There was plenty of evidence of organized crime, money in envelopes, people worried to testify, etc. Maybe Harper should call in the RCMP to investigate the Liberal Party for the security of Canada. How about it? (what's the hot key for "But the Liberals"?)

The RCMP did a background check before Gagliano became minister in 1996. If Harper really believes that the RCMP was corrupt or inept, he should have spoken up then. He was an MP. I certainly would never have wanted the man if mafia connections were evident. Since the RCMP background check came back clean, I had no indication he was connected.

Do you have a cite that the Liberals knew? Please put it here. I'd love to see it. Otherwise, I am sorely tempted to call the accusation as lie by a desperate, frothy mouthed right wing.

In 2004, Gagliano was accused of being associated with the Bonnano family. By then, he had already been dismissed from his job as ambassador. Martin expelled him for life for the sponsorship scandal. The RCMP and the FBI never followed up on the accusation about the crime links.

I personally didn't like the man and thought he was over his head in most of the ministries he was appointed to.

noahbody · June 5, 2008

Do you have a cite that the Liberals knew? Please put it here. I'd love to see it. Otherwise, I am sorely tempted to call the accusation as lie by a desperate, frothy mouthed right wing.

A decade ago, Gagliano found his rise to cabinet delayed after the RCMP told prime minister Jean Chrétien Gagliano’s accounting firm was working for companies owned by Agostino Cuntrera, who spent time in prison for conspiracy in the murder of another mobster. Gagliano’s firm later stopped working for Cuntrera’s firms.
Cuntrera came from the same Sicilian town as Gagliano and worked to help Gagliano get elected in his riding.

In 1996, the Star reported police questioned Gagliano about his name appearing in the notebooks of suspicious characters, including a Mafia member fatally shot on Dec. 14, 1991, in Sicily.

Antonio Enzio Salvo, 34, had lived in Gagliano’s Montreal-area riding before immigration officials forced him to return to Italy. Salvo was killed by a shotgun blast as he sat in his Mercedes Benz.

Gagliano was cleared by the RCMP and eventually appointed to the Chrétien cabinet, becoming a minister of state in September, 1994, and labour minister in January, 1996.

In the Commons yesterday, deputy Conservative leader Peter MacKay asked the government if the RCMP had ever raised doubts about Gagliano when the police did a security clearance for him in advance of his appointment to cabinet, the Star’s Les Whittington reports.

Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan said the government does not comment on RCMP activities.

http://www.nicaso.com/pages/doc_page180.html

BubberMiley · June 5, 2008

Yes, I guess the Tories are mean to murdering terrorists, drug addicts and incompetent, dishonest liberal politicians. How terrible.
Liberals, meanwhile, are quite friendly with criminals and drug addicts - they all vote Liberal, after all, and don't mind attending fund raisers for terrorist groups which murder children.

You make a very convincing argument that the CPC is not angry at the world and mean-spirited. :lol:

jdobbin · June 5, 2008

http://www.nicaso.com/pages/doc_page180.html

RCMP cleared Gagliano. It is right in your link.

I personally wouldn't have appointed the man to anything but the accusations against him never panned out. Certainly Harper didn't make an issue of it when he was MP.

Sure feels like a smear campaign.

noahbody · June 5, 2008

RCMP cleared Gagliano. It is right in your link.

Gagliano was cleared on a second report, indicating he wasn't cleared on the first report. I guess somewhere between the two reports there was an amendment to security guidelines to deem a 20-year relationship with a mafia figure as no big deal or someone decided "What's a few mafia members..."

The accounting firm dropped Cuntrera as a client, but the controversy kept Chretien from naming Gagliano to cabinet for several months. After a second report from the RCMP cleared him, Gagliano became a minister in late 1994 and has held several portfolios.

http://gangstersinc.tripod.com/PupAgrigento.html

Sure feels like a smear campaign.

Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, when the public works minister was first considered for cabinet the RCMP warned against it. Its concern was that the minister had been the accountant for over 20 years to Agostino Cuntrera, one of Canada's most notorious mobsters.
Now we learn the same minister helped expedite into Canada the wife of a mob hitman affiliated with the same Cuntrera crime family. This new information raises once again why the Prime Minister appointed the public works minister to cabinet over the concerns of the RCMP.

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I appointed the gentleman as a cabinet minister because he is an honest man and a great Canadian citizen.

Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, notwithstanding all that, the public works minister himself said it was an error in judgment to be associated with organized crime.
Let us look at what else the public works minister said about his relationship with organized crime. He said “If I had it to do all over again, I would probably do things differently”.

Would he today in this House tell Canadians that he made another error in judgment in helping the wife of one of Interpol's most dangerous world fugitives to enter our country? Would he again do—

The Speaker: The right hon. Prime Minister.

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I find all that absolutely unacceptable because the undertone of all of that is the fact that this gentleman is an immigrant who came from Italy. It is a smear on people coming from that country. That is the reason. If somebody is lacking judgment, it is the gentleman who just got up.

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/P...rl=37&Ses=1

Also from the first link:

Gagliano organized the Liberal Party's fund raising for the 1993 election-campaign.

Good way to infiltrate the government, I'd say.

So, are you trying to tell me Gagliano was not a security threat, it was only a smear? And Coulliard is a security threat for who she dated and it is not smear? Did the Liberanos get to you?

jdobbin · June 5, 2008

Gagliano was cleared on a second report, indicating he wasn't cleared on the first report. I guess somewhere between the two reports there was an amendment to security guidelines to deem a 20-year relationship with a mafia figure as no big deal or someone decided "What's a few mafia members..."

Citation about an amendment? I certainly never heard of one. That's your read of it. What you are suggesting is that the RCMP was influenced to clear him. Is that what you are saying?

So, are you trying to tell me Gagliano was not a security threat, it was only a smear? And Coulliard is a security threat for who she dated and it is not smear? Did the Liberanos get to you?

I'm saying that the RCMP cleared Gagliano and no one even bothered to look at Couilliard.

What you are suggesting seems to be is that the RCMP is corrupt and incompetent. If that is so, Harper should order an immediate investigation into the force.

Edited June 5, 2008 by jdobbin

noahbody · June 5, 2008

Citation about an amendment?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sarcasm

What you are suggesting is that the RCMP was influenced to clear him. Is that what you are saying?

I'd sure like to know the reason for the change. Maybe he got a character reference. He was a honest man and great Canadian citizen after all.

I'm saying that the RCMP cleared Gagliano and no one even bothered to look at Couilliard.

Well if they cleared Gagliano to be a minister with his background, why even bother to look at Coulliard as a travelling companion?

What you are suggesting seems to be is that the RCMP is corrupt and incompetent.

As it turns out they were right to be concerned. Chretien knew of the concerns and he still put Gagliano in cabinet. Do you think he was corrupt or incompetent?

jdobbin · June 5, 2008

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sarcasm

Sure looked like you are were trying to make a claim rather than a sarcastic remark.

I'd sure like to know the reason for the change. Maybe he got a character reference. He was a honest man and great Canadian citizen after all.

If Harper doesn't call an investigation immediately, will you call him soft on corrupt RCMP?

Well if they cleared Gagliano to be a minister with his background, why even bother to look at Coulliard as a travelling companion?

Why indeed since you are claiming that RCMP let a mafioso get clearance to become a minister.

As it turns out they were right to be concerned. Chretien knew of the concerns and he still put Gagliano in cabinet. Do you think he was corrupt or incompetent?

Ask the RCMP. They cleared the man. Do you think they were corrupt or incompetent.

I've already said personally that I wouldn't have appointed the man to dogcatcher. He was appointed because he was a Chretien loyalist as far as I can see. However, I have not seen anything to indicate that he didn't pass an RCMP background check.

If Harper had replied to earlier questions that he had passed on concerns about Bernier's girlfriend to the RCMP for a background check, he would have saved himself a lot of problems. Instead, he expresses no concerns whatsoever.

I think Gagliano's background needed checking given what some of the news reports showed. But the RCMP cleared him for duty.

Argus · June 6, 2008

Seems to me that the ones friendly with criminals has been Bernier's girlfriend. The fact that the Conservative were thinking of making her a candidate is quite funny. Talk about a cozy relationship and Harper was not concerned in the least.
Last election, the Tories ran a Tamil candidate who was in support of the Tamil organization the Harper government later shut down? Mixed message for those that defend against murdered children.

The message from the party was quite clear, and the Liberal Party ran several Tamil candidates who openly supported terrorism, along with Liberal leader Paul Martin. Well, at least we can't say there were any mixed messages on your side of the aisle.

As for criminals, when Harper puts someone with mafia ties in his cabinet and gives him control of political graft and patronage in Quebec you can complain.

jdobbin · June 6, 2008

The message from the party was quite clear, and the Liberal Party ran several Tamil candidates who openly supported terrorism, along with Liberal leader Paul Martin. Well, at least we can't say there were any mixed messages on your side of the aisle.

Who were these Tamil candidates for the Liberals? When did Paul Martin say he supported terrorism?

As for criminals, when Harper puts someone with mafia ties in his cabinet and gives him control of political graft and patronage in Quebec you can complain.

The RCMP cleared Gagliano. I know you think that the RCMP is corrupt but if you think so, you should probably be demanding Harper start an investigation. If he doesn't, he is soft on crime, right?

Edited June 6, 2008 by jdobbin

BubberMiley · June 6, 2008

Who were these Tamil candidates for the Liberals? When did Paul Martin say he supported terrorism?

Citing lies and bitter ideological delusion is hard.

Edited June 6, 2008 by BubberMiley

jdobbin · June 6, 2008

Citing lies and bitter ideoligical delusion is hard.

The only Tamil I know who ran in the last election was Vincent Veerasuntharam who ran fort he Tories in Scarborough Southwest last election. He was rather shocked that the Tories listed the Tigers are a terrorist organization. They had kept quiet over the matter in the election.

This is what he said to the Toronto Star.

http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/2006_02.html

Vincent Veerasuntharam, who ran for the Conservatives, says that freedom-fighting groups that are willing to negotiate and respect ceasefires should receive aid.

I don't know about any Liberal Tamil candidates.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at how some falsehoods are given as fact here. A few days ago I was told that the Liberals were to blame for the Iltis trucks which were ordered by Mulroney in 1981 and first deliveries made in 1985.

Edited June 6, 2008 by jdobbin

noahbody · June 6, 2008

But the RCMP cleared him for duty.

Hey, that works just as well as "But the Liberals."

Who's Doing What? · June 6, 2008

Hey, that works just as well as "But the Liberals."

Not really.

"But the Liberals" is used for everything under the sun that the Tories are ashamed of.

noahbody · June 6, 2008

The RCMP cleared Gagliano.

You forgot "But"

I know you think that the RCMP is corrupt but if you think so, you should probably be demanding Harper start an investigation. If he doesn't, he is soft on crime, right?

How about an investigation into government employees Gagliano had a hand in hiring. Would you support that?

jdobbin · June 6, 2008

Hey, that works just as well as "But the Liberals."

You are basically saying the RCMP is corrupt. Go on, admit it.

Edited June 6, 2008 by jdobbin

jdobbin · June 6, 2008

How about an investigation into government employees Gagliano had a hand in hiring. Would you support that?

Go ahead. I'd love a full Royal Commission. It will probably go as well for the Tories and their polling investigation.

Wild Bill · June 6, 2008

You are basically saying the RCMP is corrupt. Go on, admit it.

I'll say it! Cheerfully!

After all the Shawinigate stuff my faith in the impartiality of the RCMP was totally shattered. It had already been seriously shaken years earlier when the RCMP raided the offices of the Toronto Sun and it was pretty obvious that Trudeau had sent them.

Does anyone know if the head dude of the RCMP is a Prime Minister appointment?

It would explain a lot.