North Korea - Gas Chamber Horror

[maplesyrup]

The Guardian Newspaper has an article today concerning a North Korea shocking gas chamber horror gulag. It is called Camp 22

http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,...1136483,00.html

Canada needs to immediately push the members of the United Nations to address this horrific situation.

[KrustyKidd]

Two hundred thousand inmates??? I had to check this out.

CAMP 22 NORTH KOREA

Accounts from former prisoners and guards indicate forced laborers mine coal, make uniforms for the military, work in reprocessing factories, and farm. Reportedly, the prisoners themselves, are treated harshly. The prisoners are fed a diet of corn powder, cabbage leafs, and salt. Both defectors and human rights groups assert prisoners at North Korean camps are routinely beaten and used as a free economic tool by the regime.

Canada needs to immediately push the members of the United Nations to address this horrific situation.

I think we should shut down all ties and trade with these people until reforms of some kind are made. It isn't the UN way, but be strong and unwavering and let them know we won't tolerate it .

[SirRiff]

if the world was really a moral collection of nations, all free nations would contribute some military power (ships/planes/troops) and make it OBVIOUS that the gov of north korea is over. EVEN if they threaten to use nukes, we all go in together. the number of people who could possibly be killed by thier crude nukes is probably less then have already died or that will die in the future.

but nobody will do anything about it

sirriff

[KrustyKidd]

OMG!

Should we all saddle up and move to the NK border now? Canada at the lead or France?

Are you outraged enough to do something about it for nothing? Only the saving of lives or will you later complain that the US had some money reason that played in with this and made it a bad thing to do?

Kim is contained, he hasn't hurt anybody in years. Why are you so ready to go to war for rice? Why won't you give a few more years for inspections and diplomacy to work.

[righturnonred]

Why won't you give a few more years for inspections and diplomacy to work.

I don't know about any specific time line but I agree with KK. Over 12 years, the route of diplomacy with Iraq had run it's course. Real, multinational negotiations with N. Korea have just begun. A war with Korea would be hell and will be reserved as a last resort just as in the case with Iraq.

Kim is contained, he hasn't hurt anybody in years.

He hasn't started any wars but I wouldn't consider him contained. Millions have starved to death as the communist leadership spends nearly a third of the nation's pathetic GDP on military expenditures annually. Additionally, N.Korea is one of the world largest exporters of prohibited missle systems and WMD technology in violation of international treaties.

Diplomacy must be given a chance however, just as with Iraq, the problem will not be allowed to continue indefinately.

[maplesyrup]

Nonsense. The reality is there is no oil in North Korea.

We need the United Nations involvement here, not some another mess that the US creates, and then the rest of the world has to go in and clean up like Iraq.

[KrustyKidd]

Nonsense. The reality is there is no oil in North Korea.

We need the United Nations involvement here, not some another mess that the US creates, and then the rest of the world has to go in and clean up like Iraq.

Right on Spike! Go get 'em!

The UN leads the way, yet again! Actually, thinking abouit, when was the last?

Nothing will be done about NK until the US gets involved, you know it, I know it, and when they do, they will be blamed for it.

BTW, oil? Is that why the US went to Iraq? When will they recoup the cash layout? When will they see the profit from the $500 billion they will spend in total? Come on, you are saying it was the reason are you not, you must have facts right?

[Cameron]

KK - The Iraq War II is going to be debated for years. Who knows why the US went in. There are stories that they went in for oil, to rid Saddam and to stop terrorism. The debate will be going on forever. GWB has already changed his story (pertaining to news reports of when he was making the war cry to the story he is telling now, it has changed).

Let's face it. They said there was WMD, they havn't found any (yet?).

Maybe for Oil?

Gallons of Oil per Barrel 42

Barrels of Oil per Metric Ton (U.S.) 7.33

U.S. Crude Oil Production 5,746,000 Barrels / Day

U.S. Crude Oil Imports 9,140,000 Barrels / Day

U.S. Crude Oil Imports from OPEC 4,083,000 Barrels / Day

Top U.S. Crude Oil Supplier Saudi Arabia - 1,519,000 Barrels / Day 

U.S. Petroleum Product Imports 2,390,000 Barrels / Day

U.S. Petroleum Product Imports from OPEC 522,000 Barrels / Day

Top U.S. Total Petroleum Supplier Canada - 1,971,000 Barrels / Day

U.S. Total Petroleum Exports 975,000 Barrels / Day

U.S. Net Petroleum Imports 10,546,000 Barrels / Day

U.S. Petroleum Consumption 19,761,000 Barrels / Day

Dependence on Net Petroleum Imports  53.3%

Crude Oil Domestic First Price (Wellhead Price) $22.51 / Barrel

Motor Gasoline Retail Prices, U.S. City Average $1.44 / Gallon

Regular Grade Motor Gasoline Retail Prices, U.S. City Average $1.36 / Gallon

Premium Motor Gasoline Retail Prices, U.S. City Average $1.58 / Gallon

Federal Motor Gasoline Tax 18.4 Cents/Gallon

U.S. Motor Gasoline Consumptiona 8,848,000 Barrels / Day

(371.6 Million Gallons / Day)

Share of US Oil Consumption for Transportation , 2001 68%

U.S. Average Home Heating Oil Price  $1.13 / Gallon (Excluding Taxes)

Number of U.S. Operable Petroleum Refineries  149

U.S. Proved Reserves of Crude Oil as of December 31, 2001 22,446 million barrels

U.S. Strategic Petroleum Reserve 599 Million Barrels

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html

There is only a 53.3% dependacy on imports, but, out of the total imports of crude oil, there is only a dependancy of 4,083,000 Barrels / Day from OPEC counrtys out of a total of 14,886,000 Barrels / Day crude consumption.

The Iraq controversy is not going anywhere fast. And Bush doesn't look like a night in shining armour.

Sorry for going off topic...

[KrustyKidd]

That's OK. The figures you gave are probably good and I don't argue with them. I do wish to point out that OPEC is not made up of Arabic countries only. For example, much of America's oil comes from Venuzeuela which is also OPEC. Other than that, the only other point I wish to make is that Iraq is only part of the world picture. Most orders so far are bound for Europe as the US has it's sources already in place for years to come.

One other thing; you said Iraq War II, this was actually a legal continuation of the first Gulf War. Iraq did not comply with the ceasefire agreement which it was bound to. It was to have ceased all WMD production, research and development as well as possess none. A fact which Hans Blix verified as late as 27 Jan 2003. In all these resolutions the US as one of the 'Member Nations' assisting Kuwait was given permission to act on it's opwn or in concert without the UN.

686

4. Recognizes that during the period required for Iraq to comply with paragraphs 2 and 3 above, the provisions of paragraph 2 of resolution 678 (1990) remain valid;

686

2. Demands that Iraq implement its acceptance of all twelve resolutions noted above

678

2. Authorizes Member States co-operating with the Government of Kuwait, unless Iraq on or before 15 January 1991 fully implements, as set forth in paragraph 1 above, the foregoing resolutions, to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 (1990) and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area;

687

8. Decides that Iraq shall unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless, under international supervision, of: (a) All chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities; ( All ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometres and related major parts, and repair and production facilities;

Seems that this all adds up to a cease fire that was broken by Iraq. Or should I say, never fullly complied with. Therefore, member states cooperating with the government of Kuwait, acting under res 678 para2 "all subsequent resolutions" can simply resume military action.

[SirRiff]

the thing that people consistantly gloss over about the oil thing is that OIL STABILITY is a huge componant of the oil demand. the US can absorb an oil price that is 10% or 20% higher. but as every oil expert on the news said before the war, its the unpredictability of the oil market and the big swings in crude flow that would play havok with US productivity.

that is why its nice to have nice pet unelected "royal" families in saudi arabia and kuwait. as long as the oil is flowing, the US calls them "royal family" instead of "unelected dictator" and they know it. they get protection and little scrutiny. even when they funded terrorists they are almost off limits for retaliation from the US. its all about a stable oil market.

sirriff

[KrustyKidd]

its all about a stable oil market.

Exactly! Do you find something casually unimportant about that? Is there something that you have found to replace the basis for the world's economy?

I'm quite sure that none of Iraq's oil is even bound for the US but rather France, Germany and whatever. As you said, the stability is the key. What would China do if oil doubled in price overnight? Might they do something unperedictable? What would people in the ME do if it was priced so high nobody was buying it from there but rather other sources? Beleive it or not, one of OPEC's tasks is to keep the flow and price stable so that other sources are not looked at. It is how they stay in business. How would they provide for themselves? What would they do if the world cut down use and started using their own resources instead?

It is far more to the advantage of other countries than the US that oil stability is maintained. unlike the US, many countries have no oil to drill, unlike many countries, those in the ME have no other source of income or product to sell in order to feed themselves.

that is why its nice to have nice pet unelected "royal" families in saudi arabia and kuwait. as long as the oil is flowing, the US calls them "royal family" instead of "unelected dictator"

No Riff, the world will explode if oil goes out of reach for the average person. The US would be the least hit after Japan and Europe. As I stated before, the US would hurt but other economies would be dead, including all those in the ME. It is far more than simple economics at work, there is a whole planet of 6 Billin that depend on oil for day to day things. If there is anythng more stable than a bunch of Royal idiots then I am sure the US would jump on it as would every other person who has to deal with these pompus users.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

Would you now state that your previous posts about 'oil having nothing to do with the actions of the USA' as being 'blown out of the water'?

[KrustyKidd]

No Sir, if you search back far enough you will find me saying that if Iraq was on the shore of Antartica that we wouldn'tve cared and Saddam would still be in power. Nice try though.

The counter argument I have always had is that we did not go to Iraq for oil. And we didn't. Oil is in the region, it provides an international backdrop for the political unrest that terrorism draws on to gain undue importance. Terrorism gains momentum by pointing out the vast differencials between have's and have nots. If we wanted stability then we wuld simply drain our own resources and let them starve, terrorism would not go away though, it would build and soon go nuclear. We went there to stop terrorism by attempting to install a freely elected government in a country that has a lot of natural resources. Enough to pay for it's own hasty building into a form which we hope will be good to it's people and give them purpose and hope for the future. A future that will provide an example for the poor and destitute of the region to show that terrorism is not the only door out.

As a side benifit, the stable flow of oil (which is benificial to all mankind) is ensured.

You wish me to list the five or six reasons why I believe that the US went into Iraq again? There are many countries that have one or more of those reasons but none have all of them all lined up in a row in such a timely maner as Iraq did.