Brenda Martin's Mother calls out PM Harper

[capricorn]

Yes, no one in Canada cares about some of the problems Canadians have with the justice system down in Mexico.

You're purposely misinterpreting my words to suit your political agenda. I never said Canadians did not care about some the problems encountered with the Mexican justice system. My comments related specifically to the Brenda Martin case.

The Tory government is just reflecting that lack of care by saying to people that they are on their own down there.

I know you're deeply disappointed to learn that in fact the government has been doing its job all along for Martin and that another Liberal effort to smear the Conservatives is going nowhere. All that wasted energy...

The only thing our officials do is have cocktails and talk trade.

Your partisanship is so transparent and dated. Maybe the Liberal party should feed you new talking points.

[jdobbin]

You're purposely misinterpreting my words to suit your political agenda. I never said Canadians did not care about some the problems encountered with the Mexican justice system. My comments related specifically to the Brenda Martin case.

You mean Helen Guergis was not having cocktails a short distance away from Martin while she was imprisoned or that it wasn't Harper but Mexcio's President who initiated contact?

I know you're deeply disappointed to learn that in fact the government has been doing its job all along for Martin and that another Liberal effort to smear the Conservatives is going nowhere. All that wasted energy...

The smear seems to be the Tories trying to bash Martin.

Fine job the Tories have done. I wish this was the only case that we have seen them deal with in the last two plus years that showed some of the problems ordinary Canadians have with one of our NAFTA partners and their justice system.

Your partisanship is so transparent and dated. Maybe the Liberal party should feed you new talking points.

Another personal jab when none was directed at you. Is this the Tory attack strategy?

I guess we have seen that transparent and dated style with Flaherty every single week.

Edited March 30, 2008 by jdobbin

[Keepitsimple]

As usual, there are at least two sides to every story. The Canadian Press has obtained a chronology of events with regards to contact with Ms. Martin - muchg of which is detailed in the attached article. It seemed unlikely that a Canadian was allowed to sit in a jail for two years without consular assistance. After all, consular staff are for the most part, non-partisan - they are Public Service employees who simply do their job. With the exception of Ambassadors, Consular staff tend to remain constant through changes of government.

OTTAWA — Canadian officials have regularly visited and telephoned Brenda Martin since her imprisonment in Mexico more than two years ago, contrary to claims by critics, a government report indicates.

A Foreign Affairs Department report provides a detailed account of contacts between the Canadian consulate in Guadalajara and the jailed woman since her February 2006 arrest.

The document also offers a glimpse at life in the Puente Grande women's jail, including Martin's skirmishes with inmates, weekly telephone calls to her mother and a prison beauty pageant.

Consular officials spoke often with Martin, 51, by telephone, sometimes several times a day, and visited the prison at least a dozen times.

There's no indication of the length of the calls and visits, and only a brief note about each encounter.

But the report, obtained by The Canadian Press, helps bolster the Canadian government's claim of regular dialogue with Martin and Mexican officials.......................

Full Article: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/prin...bhub=PrintStory

Edited March 30, 2008 by Keepitsimple

[jdobbin]

As usual, there are at least two sides to every story. The Canadian Press has obtained a chronology of events with regards to contact with Ms. Martin - muchg of which is detailed in the attached article. It seemed unlikely that a Canadian was allowed to sit in a jail for two years without consular assistance. After all, consular staff are for the most part, non-partisan - they are Public Service employees who simply do their job. With the exception of Ambassadors, Consular staff tend to remain constant through changes of government.

Which official released this file? Is it complete? Where is the department spokesman who can give some background on this? Why isn't the minister responding in regards to this information?

It smacks of a smear job by a government that revels in that sort of stuff.

[capricorn]

You mean Helen Guergis was not having cocktails a short distance away from Martin while she was imprisoned or that it wasn't Harper but Mexcio's President who initiated contact?

Dobbin your desperation is palpable.

The smear seems to be the Tories trying to bash Martin.

Please indicate where and how the Conservatives bashed Brenda Martin.

Fine job the Tories have done. I wish this was the only case that we have seen them deal with in the last two plus years that showed some of the problems ordinary Canadians have with one of our NAFTA partners and their justice system.

What? You want the Canadian government to hop over to Mexico and personally investigate every incidence of jailed Canadians or cases where Canadians died while on vacation? You want Canada to take over Mexico's justice system?

Speaking of Canadians in trouble abroad, how did the Liberals handle the case of Ahmed Said Khadr, a known terrorist?

Telling quote "We are Canadians," Mr. Khadr's wife, Maha, tells reporters. "If the Canadian prime minister can't help us, who can?"

Outcome Jean Chrétien talks Khadrs with Pakistan.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...HADR26/TPStory/

And how was William Sampson treated during Liberal rule?

Throughout this time, Sampson hoped Canadian embassy officials might be the advocates and protectors he so desperately needed, but he was sorely disappointed. His first visit with Canadian officials came more than a month after his arrest. His torturers attended the meeting and warned Sampson not to let on he was being ill-treated. He did as he was told. In this meeting and others to follow, Sampson came to distrust the embassy officials, sensing that they believed he was guilty and were interested only in fulfilling their most basic responsibilities. They refused, for example, to accept Sampson's power of attorney and later, when he became defiant and abusive to his captors, they chided him for his rudeness. He saw the embassy staff as ineffectual, self-serving bureaucrats, not a potential lifeline to the outside world. Eventually he refused to meet with Canadian officials and the lawyer they had assigned to his case.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/ind...s=M1ARTM0012840

In those two high profile cases we had a Liberal Prime Minister intervening with Pakistan on behalf of a known terrorist and in another case ignoring the fate of an ordinary Canadian held and tortured in a Saudi jail. Strange priorities!

So. Do you have any other opinion on Ms. Martin's case other than thinking she's being shafted by the Conservatives? After all, she did say she has no intention of returning to Canada once her ordeal in Mexico comes to a close because she hates our climate. With this in mind, what would be the measure of her gratitude to Canada for taking up her cause? Where do you think she'll move to?

[capricorn]

Which official released this file? Is it complete? Where is the department spokesman who can give some background on this? Why isn't the minister responding in regards to this information?

If I didn't know any better, I might think you were calling for an inquiry.

It smacks of a smear job by a government that revels in that sort of stuff.

It won't stick.

[jdobbin]

If I didn't know any better, I might think you were calling for an inquiry.

No, everyone already knows the answer and the minister is afraid to be linked to the smear job.

It won't stick.

Yes, I agree. The Tory attempt to smear Martin anonymously is not sticking. Their attack dog mentality certainly is exposed for what it is.

[Topaz]

The bottom line is if Brenda Martin is not guilty she shouldn't be in jail and if/when she does get out I don't care where she goes to live. It won't be the US because she has been in jail and now has a record. Besides all this attention towards Brenda Martin is keeping the topic of the Cadman situation out of topic.

[capricorn]

The bottom line is if Brenda Martin is not guilty she shouldn't be in jail

Well her guilt or innocence is something you or I cannot determine from where we're sitting.

and if/when she does get out I don't care where she goes to live.

Neither do I. As a matter of fact, with her attitude toward this country, I hope she doesn't come back. With her gift for associating with the wrong people, we may hear from her again in the future.

It won't be the US because she has been in jail and now has a record.

The US has every right to ban anyone they want from entering their country.

Besides all this attention towards Brenda Martin is keeping the topic of the Cadman situation out of topic.

Do you think it's easy to make priorities?

[YEGmann]

The bottom line is if Brenda Martin is not guilty she shouldn't be in jail

She's definitely guilty of violations of at least some Mexican laws (visa and work permit).

As for being out jail - no way. Mexicans have granted a release on bail to her boss, Mr. Waage. He fled immediately. They won't repeat the mistake.

[jbg]

Deleted. Not in accord with facts of matter.

Edited March 31, 2008 by jbg

[Keepitsimple]

Which official released this file? Is it complete? Where is the department spokesman who can give some background on this? Why isn't the minister responding in regards to this information?

It smacks of a smear job by a government that revels in that sort of stuff.

The Government is in a no-win situation. I'll bet the farm that now that this report has shown up, the Conservatives will be accused of invading Brenda Martin's privacy. I can just smell it coming. My point in posting the news article was simply to point out that there's more to this story than the one-sided version that lazy journalists have presented.

[jdobbin]

The Government is in a no-win situation. I'll bet the farm that now that this report has shown up, the Conservatives will be accused of invading Brenda Martin's privacy. I can just smell it coming. My point in posting the news article was simply to point out that there's more to this story than the one-sided version that lazy journalists have presented.

Posting a response as they did without a spokesman or a minister commenting smacks of a smear job. The report was leaked. That's some way to run a government. If the government feels it has been doing its job, they should stand up and take ownership of this document.

[Argus]

It is fairly well-known that governments have embassies in order to retain good relationships with each other, and help deal with trade issues. They are not there to look after the needs of tourists abroad, and never have been. People seem quite naive about what governments will or can do for them in other countries. The plain and simple fact is there are only two governments which have ever put any importance on looking after the welfare of their citizens abroad; The United Kingdom, and Israel. None of the rest have ever given a crap about what happens to their citizens abroad, and that includes Canada - under either a Liberal or PC or Conservative government. No importance has EVER been placed on looking after the rights or concerns of Canadians abroad. They will, at best, see to it you get a lawyer - though you have to pay for it. If you're tortured they might make a protest of some kind, probably pro forma. But that's about it.

[jdobbin]

It is fairly well-known that governments have embassies in order to retain good relationships with each other, and help deal with trade issues. They are not there to look after the needs of tourists abroad, and never have been. People seem quite naive about what governments will or can do for them in other countries. The plain and simple fact is there are only two governments which have ever put any importance on looking after the welfare of their citizens abroad; The United Kingdom, and Israel. None of the rest have ever given a crap about what happens to their citizens abroad, and that includes Canada - under either a Liberal or PC or Conservative government. No importance has EVER been placed on looking after the rights or concerns of Canadians abroad. They will, at best, see to it you get a lawyer - though you have to pay for it. If you're tortured they might make a protest of some kind, probably pro forma. But that's about it.

On the Foreign Affairs website, it encourages Canadians to get in contact with consular officials. Most incidences are handled quietly but when it appears that further attention is needed, the file is flagged and governments take a political approach. We have seen Harper do that with China and Saudi Arabia.

It seems that this file stayed in the quiet file until Martin's friend drew media and opposition attention to it. It isn't the first time that Mexico's justice system has become an issue in Canada. What can the government do about it? Well, it is amazing what direct contacts at the highest level will achieve. Certainly, it is better than anonymously leaking documents meant to smear someone.

[Keepitsimple]

Posting a response as they did without a spokesman or a minister commenting smacks of a smear job. The report was leaked. That's some way to run a government. If the government feels it has been doing its job, they should stand up and take ownership of this document.

Dobbin - as the Liberal Party implodes, I know it's been extremely frustrating for you lately.....but you don't have to slither over to the dark side of knee-jerk anti-Conservative rantings. I think most posters accept your pro-Liberal comments and some of your postings are actually quite thoughtful. If the report was leaked, my guess is that it was done by a Consular staffer who was simply fed up with all the apparent mis-truths that were being spewed by Ms. Martin and her supporters. If the contents of the report are close to being accurate, then Ms. Martin is not the kind-hearted little old lady that she has been made out to be. Since phone records and prison visits are logged at prisons and the consulate, it seems almost certain that the Consulate report is accurate.

Dobbin - I could just as easily manufacture a "smear job" by saying that it is probable that Liberal supporters are manipulating Ms. Martin's supporters to heap "shame" on the Conservatives.

Edited March 30, 2008 by Keepitsimple

[normanchateau]

"So we continue to protest this at every level, up to and including my own (recent) meeting with the president (of China). We will continue to vocalize these concerns."

Stephen Harper in February, 2007 on the apprehension of an alleged Muslim terrorist who is a dual citizen of both China and Canada.

March, 2008: "The prime minister's office has refused to confirm or deny whether Mr. Harper raised Ms. Martin's detention with the Mexican leader."

Harper devotees apparently see no inconsistency in Harper's vocal support for the terrorist who retains Chinese citizenship versus a refusal to even comment on Brenda Martin. And if they do see an inconsistency, they can rationalize it away. No doubt they will also rationalize his latest blatant lack of transparency.

[jdobbin]

Dobbin - as the Liberal Party implodes, I know it's been extremely frustrating for you lately.....but you don't have to slither over to the dark side of knee-jerk anti-Conservative rantings. I think most posters accept your pro-Liberal comments and some of your postings are actually quite thoughtful. If the report was leaked, my guess is that it was done by a Consular staffer who was simply fed up with all the apparent mis-truths that were being spewed by Ms. Martin and her supporters. If the contents of the report are close to being accurate, then Ms. Martin is not the kind-hearted little old lady that she has been made out to be. Since phone records and prison visits are logged at prisons and the consulate, it seems almost certain that the Consulate report is accurate.

There is no excuse for leaking something like this. I wouldn't accept it from any government. Martin might not be the nicest woman out there but leaking information about her without context or a link back to where it came from is unacceptable. I can't believe any Conservative finds it appropriate.

We have seen governments of various stripes leaking information about citizens when it suits them. I don't find it to be the action of an admirable government. Conservatives should be wary of this sort of thing as well. It often comes back to haunt you.

Dobbin - I could just as easily manufacture a "smear job" by saying that it is probable that Liberal supporters are manipulating Ms. Martin's supporters to heap "shame" on the Conservatives.

Those claims are already being made. It should be noted it was Martin's friend who tried to bring public attention to this issue and that the Liberal who lobbied for some action wasn't trying to embarrass the government but get things moving.

The Tories need to assure Canadians that they will not take a hands off approach to issues of crime and justice in Mexico. They certainly don't do that for Saudi Arabia and China and speak publicly on those cases.

[normanchateau]

"Canadians also overwhelming want Prime Minister Stephen Harper to push harder for Martin's release. The Angus Reid survey found 71 per cent of Canadians want Harper to get personally involved in Martin's case and press for her release on humanitarian grounds.

Harper's office has still refused to confirm or deny whether he has called Mexican President Felipe Calderon on Martin's behalf. Mario Canseco, director of global studies for pollster Angus Reid, said the secrecy is undermining the public's faith in the prime minister. "This is typical of the way this government has been behaving," Canseco said. "They have this idea that the less they talk to reporters, the better they will appear in the media."

Source:

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/s...c1127&k=285

The other 29% of Canadians seem to be disproportionately represented on this website.

[bush_cheney2004]

Harper's office has still refused to confirm or deny whether he has called Mexican President Felipe Calderon on Martin's behalf. Mario Canseco, director of global studies for pollster Angus Reid, said the secrecy is undermining the public's faith in the prime minister....

Actually, the public's clamor is undermining any chance for effective intervention and diplomacy. Mexico is not about to be bullied by Canada in public to let an accused criminal get special treatment.

Edited March 30, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Pliny]

Which official released this file? Is it complete? Where is the department spokesman who can give some background on this? Why isn't the minister responding in regards to this information?

It smacks of a smear job by a government that revels in that sort of stuff.

Although you never call your citations from the MSM about Harper and the Conservatives "smear jobs", even though it seems to me most of it is, you certainly do a lot of reveling in that sort of stuff.

There is no excuse for leaking something like this. I wouldn't accept it from any government. Martin might not be the nicest woman out there but leaking information about her without context or a link back to where it came from is unacceptable. I can't believe any Conservative finds it appropriate.

You have already decided a Conservative leaked this? What was his name by the way? Or is this the smear job?

Edited March 30, 2008 by Pliny

[jdobbin]

Although you never call your citations from the MSM about Harper and the Conservatives "smear jobs", even though it seems to me most of it is, you certainly do a lot of reveling in that sort of stuff.

Please tell me what post you are referring to. Seems to me that you are just personalizing an attack.

Why is that those on the right wing think a leaked document that no one is willing to stand behind is a good thing?

[Pliny]

Please tell me what post you are referring to. Seems to me that you are just personalizing an attack.

Why is that those on the right wing think a leaked document that no one is willing to stand behind is a good thing?

Is it a leaked document? It seems to me just a statement of record. If you could prove it entirely fabricated then I would say it was fraudulently presented to make them look good. Is an actual record of events an attempt to smear or an attempt to set the record straight?

But the report, obtained by The Canadian Press, helps bolster the Canadian government's claim of regular dialogue with Martin and Mexican officials.

Aren't you just trying to make it appear like a smear job with some counter-smearing?

[capricorn]

You have already decided a Conservative leaked this? What was his name by the way? Or is this the smear job?

For all we know, someone in Mexico got hold of the information and sold it to a Canadian reporter. It's as good a speculation as any I've read.

Brenda Martin (literally) cried for help from the government on national television. When the government answered positively and stepped up action on her behalf she called this "a dog and pony show", a photo op, etc. and just about told the government to screw off. Now that it's come to light that action was being taken all along by government officials, she is saying someone is trying to smear her.

I'm having difficulty believing she is acting without advice from someone or some group. Who in the heck is advising her to act the way she is? For one thing, we can eliminate the Conservatives. Or can we?

[jdobbin]

Is it a leaked document? It seems to me just a statement of record. If you could prove it entirely fabricated then I would say it was fraudulently presented to make them look good. Is an actual record of events an attempt to smear or an attempt to set the record straight?

Canadian Press reports it is a leaked document. You have evidence to the contrary? A statement of record would be something that the department would release and address publicly. Where is the spokesman commentary on this document?

Aren't you just trying to make it appear like a smear job with some counter-smearing?

If the leaked document is not a smear campaign, why won't someone step forward and attest to its veracity?