Feds promoting discrimination

[M.Dancer]

Tabernac c'est bien fun ici...

[Argus]

No I do not believe in your version of assimilation, where we would value English above French and attempt to cleanse Canada of its French-speaking elements. Both languages should be treated equally by the federal government and certain provincial governments.

Francophones represent about 20% of the population - and falling. Why would the federal government treat French equally to English?

Your assertion that French linguistic communities outside Quebec receive aid while the English linguistic community inside Quebec does not (while I doubt its truthfulness) is something that I too am concerned about. We should promote these communities to ensure that, in the future, Quebec does not remain "the French-speaking province" and the other nine provinces do not remain "the English-speaking provinces".

Why?

That should be our objective, promoting linguistic duality within each province. The federal government should attract English-speaking people to settle in Quebec and attract French-speaking people to settle in the rest of Canada.

Why?

I would support holding referendums on official bilingualism, as long as the questions are clear and fair. That way the Canadian public could express their support for the policy and we could get on with the task at hand, building a nation.

Well, one question might be "Do you agree that it is in your interest to have almost all senior federal government jobs staffed by Quebecers?"

That is what is happening, though most of you outside Ottawa seem blissfully ignorant of it.

Those of you who are so against official bilingualism, what about the English-speaking minority in Quebec? I find that beneath the arguments used by the anti-bilingualism people, such as "it wastes our money" or "it's just pandering to an interest group", the real reason for the resentment of official bilingualism is a feeling that English is just better than French.

It is, actually. French is hideously complex. Even most Francophones can't speak it or write it properly.

The same people who criticize official bilingualism in the rest of Canada are those who criticize official monolingualism in Quebec, presumably because in that case it benefits French at the expense of English.

Both policies benefit French at the expense of English.

[Argus]

You are mistaken fundamentally on the issue of official languages. The federal government is officially bilingual, in Quebec as in the rest of Canada. Almost all (except New Brunswick) of the provincial governments are officially unilingual. Therefore your statement that official bilingualism is arranged asymetrically to benefit Quebec is completely false

Trying to use twisted logic to dodge truth, eh? Rarely works. Doesn't work here. If official bilingualism wasn't meant to benefit and placate Quebec, then who was it meant to benefit? You bring in a policy which says that these 20% are equal to those 80% and then say it's not meant to benefit the 20%? Get real.

[normanchateau]

And so will the Liberals.

In other words, your defense of the Conservatives squandering billions on a pointless policy is that the Liberals will do it as well?

How times change. I can remember when the Official Opposition rightly criticized the Liberals for pandering to Quebec. And I can still remember when Stephen Harper said:

"As a religion, bilingualism is the god that failed. It has led to no fairness, produced no unity, and cost Canadian taxpayers untold millions."

Perhaps Harper now thinks for bilingualism to work, he'll need to spend billions, not merely millions.

[Leafless]

As all provinces are officially unilingual with the exception of New Brunswick,

All provinces are NOT OFFICIALLY UNILINGUAL, throughout the entire province except racist Quebec which is 'officially unilingual French' throughout the entire province.

[M.Dancer]

All provinces are NOT OFFICIALLY UNILINGUAL, throughout the entire province except racist Quebec which is 'officially unilingual French' throughout the entire province.

\

Could you perhaps rephrase that in one of the official languages....

[Sean Hayward]

Trying to use twisted logic to dodge truth, eh? Rarely works. Doesn't work here. If official bilingualism wasn't meant to benefit and placate Quebec, then who was it meant to benefit? You bring in a policy which says that these 20% are equal to those 80% and then say it's not meant to benefit the 20%? Get real.

How is that twisted logic? Official bilingualism is meant to ensure that French-speaking people aren't confined inside Quebec and English-speaking people outside Quebec. If Quebec secedes some day in the future, then there will be no purpose for bilingualism and it can be abandoned, but with 20% of Canadians speaking French primarily, how can you justify denying them services in their language? It doesn't mean the 20% are equal to the 80%. Can't you get it through your head? How does it make them "equal"? It simply says that they are entitled to receive services in their language, not that they are elevated to some higher level.

If you want to see Canada divided along linguistic lines and divided up then of course you will be in favour of alienating the French-speaking Canadians and isolating them in Quebec. So Argus has agreed that his opposition to bilingualism is based on his opinion that "my language is better than yours". I know that both policies (official bilingualism at the federal level and French-only in Quebec at the provincial level) benefit French, although not necessarily at the expense of English. And that just illustrates my point, you are against both because they benefit French and that goes against your "English is better" philosophy. Don't you think some French-speakers believe that French is better.

Official bilingualism is about making both French-speaking Canadians and English-speaking Canadians believe that Canada is their home. The opposing view is that Quebec is the home of the French and every other province is the home of the English. In other words, isolation. There seems to be a widely held attitude here that it's us (English) against them (French). I do not expect to convince you if that's your attitude.

[normanchateau]

All provinces are NOT OFFICIALLY UNILINGUAL, throughout the entire province except racist Quebec which is 'officially unilingual French' throughout the entire province.

Belgium employs a policy where only Brussels is bilingual. The rest of Belgium is either Flemish or French-speaking. Stephen Harper once proposed the Belgian model for Canada. Of course he's now totally abandoned that idea in order to pander to Quebec. If he had no plans to pander to Quebec, he wouldn't have given the task of making recommendations to Bernard Lord.

[capricorn]

"As a religion, bilingualism is the god that failed. It has led to no fairness, produced no unity, and cost Canadian taxpayers untold millions."

Here is the complete quote:

"It is simply difficult – extremely difficult – for someone to become bilingual in a country that is not. And make no mistake. Canada is not a bilingual country. In fact it less bilingual today than it has ever been... So there you have it. As a religion, bilingualism is the god that failed. It has led to no fairness, produced no unity and cost Canadian taxpayers untold millions."

- Stephen Harper on bilingualism, Calgary Sun, May 6th 2001.

[Wilber]

Here is the complete quote:

"It is simply difficult – extremely difficult – for someone to become bilingual in a country that is not. And make no mistake. Canada is not a bilingual country. In fact it less bilingual today than it has ever been... So there you have it. As a religion, bilingualism is the god that failed. It has led to no fairness, produced no unity and cost Canadian taxpayers untold millions."

- Stephen Harper on bilingualism, Calgary Sun, May 6th 2001.

A true statement which just points to the fact that reality has nothing to do with what it takes to form a government in Canada.

[Leafless]

Is it the task of government to engineer society, to build a nation? In general, yes.

No, not to unilaterally SOCIAL engineer it. This is along the lines of communism.

Nation-building requires a degree of co-operation and co-ordination that individual citizens are not capable of without government.

B.S., that is what referendums are for and the federal government, legally can use them, but because of the dysfunctional nature of Canadian politics (English vs. French ideologies) chooses to abuse and oppress Canadian citizens by choosing undemocratically and unilaterrally to implement policies (even the Charter) using its own legislative authority.

If we want to establish anarchy and never have any kind of government in our lives, well then that's a different question. But if you agree that we should have a government to hold us together as a society, then you must agree that there needs to be some degree of social engineering.

I for one do not wish to be held accountable to traitors who still wish to carry on the war of 'Plains of Abraham' and fail to recognize their place in society.

If Canada is to become a nation in the full and true sense of the word, we must abandon this isolation of French in Quebec and English outside Quebec, and accept that Canada is bilingual from coast to coast.

SAYS WHO?

Canada can be a nation without Quebec and would be much wealthier and be able to culturally advance from its current dysfunctional corrupt political linguistic state.

Leafless appears to be so confused I don't know where to start. There IS an English-speaking minority in Quebec.

There is artifically, because Quebec has been federally subsidized to discriminate against the normal migration of the English majority to live in Quebec.

Don't you understand that Quebec is being allowed, as a province to behave in the same manner as an oppressive NAZI regime and that is to rule on the basis of culture.

Ther is no doubt in my mind our federal government is corrupt as they come.

If you have any knowledge whatsoever of Canada, then one of the first things you would learn is that Quebec has a French-speaking majority and an English-speaking minority. The English-speaking minority of Quebec is part of the English-speaking majority of Canada. Maybe that is where I lost you. I can assure you I would never support any racist law of any kind. Quebec's language laws are in no way racist.

They are!

They discriminate against languages other than French, but they do not discriminate against any race.

Language is a component of race, so Quebec discriminates.

I was not taking a position on those laws by mentioning them, I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of criticizing French-only laws in Quebec while promoting English-only laws in the other provinces.

There is no hypocrisy.

English is the majority language of Canada....French is NOT.

Do you understand the concept of an official language?

Outside of racially discriminating under the guise of being equal...no.

You say "Quebec's monolingualism was implemented by the government of Quebec". Of course it was implemented by the government of Quebec! Who else would Quebec's language policies be implemented by?

Legitimately?.....who else, the federal government.

The federal government is corrupt.

What role has the federal government to recognize or not recognize provincial language policies? I must have failed to understand your point because I can't think of any embarassing questions this brings up. Would you like to ask them to me directly?

I think they already have been cleary spelled out.

Again, the federal government is corrupt.

[normanchateau]

Here is the complete quote:

"It is simply difficult – extremely difficult – for someone to become bilingual in a country that is not. And make no mistake. Canada is not a bilingual country. In fact it less bilingual today than it has ever been... So there you have it. As a religion, bilingualism is the god that failed. It has led to no fairness, produced no unity and cost Canadian taxpayers untold millions."

- Stephen Harper on bilingualism, Calgary Sun, May 6th 2001.

No wonder Stephen Harper appointed Bernard Lord to head the commission recommending that we spend billions on bilingualism. Lord of course pandered to francophone Quebec. The chameleon-like Harper can quietly claim to his redneck supporters that his 2001 position hasn't changed and he's merely acting on the Lord recommendations.

It's a no-lose position for Harper. Instituting the Lord recommendations might win a few francophone votes but it won't lose any votes among diehard Conservatives. The latter will rationalize it as something poor Harper must do to win a majority. That's also why Harper was safe to propose that the Quebecois are a nation, a position that even Duceppe accepted.

Harper is well aware that to capture a majority government, he'll have to capture more than 50% of the Quebec vote as Mulroney did...as well as pretend not to be a social conservative. The socially moderate Mulroney is the only Conservative who won a majority in the past 50 years or so. For a social and religious conservative like Harper to pull a Mulroney, he'll have to out-Mulroney Mulroney.

[Leafless]

\

Could you perhaps rephrase that in one of the official languages....

I don't have to.

Official languages only relate to the corrupt federal government and its entities.

Mapleleafweb is not under federal jurisdiction.

I choose to use the English language anywhere I wish, official or NOT.

The English language discriminates against no one, it is the majority free flowing language of Canada.

If you don't know it, learn it.

[guyser]

I don't have to.

Official languages only relate to the corrupt federal government and its entities.

Mapleleafweb is not under federal jurisdiction.

I choose to use the English language anywhere I wish, official or NOT.

The English language discriminates against no one, it is the majority free flowing language of Canada.

If you don't know it, learn it.

Zing.....right over the top , and didnt even know it.

[normanchateau]

Official languages only relate to the corrupt federal government and its entities.

What? Stephen Harper's government corrupt merely because they plan to spend billions on promoting bilingualism. That's like saying that they promote corruption because they failed to implement some of the Gomery recommendations:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/03/13/...ee.html?ref=rss

[Argus]

How is that twisted logic? Official bilingualism is meant to ensure that French-speaking people aren't confined inside Quebec and English-speaking people outside Quebec.

Then it has failed rather abysmally.

If Quebec secedes some day in the future, then there will be no purpose for bilingualism and it can be abandoned, but with 20% of Canadians speaking French primarily, how can you justify denying them services in their language?

No one said anything about denying them services. Official Bilingualism is only peripherally involved with the provision of services to the public. Its main affect is to increase the power and influence of Quebec within the federal government. It is designed to encourage the idea that no one can be in any responsible position of authority over any national institution unless they can speak French - fluently. As only a tiny percentage of Anglophones are bilingual that means virtually all executive level jobs wind up going to Francophones - mostly from Quebec. Even those jobs which do go to Anglophones generally go to that group of Anglophones which is by far the most likely to be bilingual - Quebecers.

It doesn't mean the 20% are equal to the 80%. Can't you get it through your head?

Actually it can mean they are far ahead of the 80%. Some government departments, agencies and boards are more than 50% French, Some are as high as 90% French.

If you want to see Canada divided along linguistic lines and divided up then of course you will be in favour of alienating the French-speaking Canadians and isolating them in Quebec.

Official Bilingualism has done NOTHING to dissuade Quebecers from the idea of separation. Again, it is a notable failure in making Quebecers feel as though the federal government has value to them. And despite decades of federal sucking up and lavishing money on the province the great majority of Quebecers seem to prefer to believe that they pay more to the federal coffers than they get back. There is, quite honestly, no love of Canada among French Quebecers. The majority has always wanted to leave, and still do. Only the disproportionate number of NO voters among Anglos and immigrants kept the province from separating.

So Argus has agreed that his opposition to bilingualism is based on his opinion that "my language is better than yours".

Uhm, no. My opposition is based on how expensive it is, how unfair it is, and how wasteful it is in that it accomplishes none of its stated goals. It's also because of how it makes federal institutions, already badly run, even more incompetent by hiring and promotion of that very small percentage of the population which is fluently bilingual - despite lack of qualifications or abilities.

I know that both policies (official bilingualism at the federal level and French-only in Quebec at the provincial level) benefit French, although not necessarily at the expense of English. And that just illustrates my point, you are against both because they benefit French and that goes against your "English is better" philosophy. Don't you think some French-speakers believe that French is better.

All of them, actually. But they're allowed to do that, right? I mean, they can act as mean-spirited towards English as they want, pass whater unpleasant laws they want, and people like you simply smile and say they're proud quebecois or nationalists. But if an Anglophone questions bilingualism he's a bigot, right?

Official bilingualism is about making both French-speaking Canadians and English-speaking Canadians believe that Canada is their home.

It failed - miserably. Most Quebecers kind of put up with the idea Quebec is part of Canada, so long as we don't intrude or interfere, and as long as they get lots of power in Ottawa. But they have little liking or respect for Canada outside Quebec, and rarely go there, at least, not past Ottawa. Far far far more Quebecers have gone to Florida than to Toronto, much less Alberta or BC. And that is not going to change.

It was a stupid idea to begin with. If you're French, you need to be able to operate in English if you're going to go out to BC or Toronto. The fact you can communicate with a federal public servant - probably another Quebecer brought out there just in case some Francophone stops by - is not going to change that.

[AngusThermopyle]

There seems to be a widely held attitude here that it's us (English) against them (French).

Go spend some quality time in Quebec if you want to see that attitude in all its glory. The xenophobic attitudes and outright hatred of the rest of Canada can be quite an eye opener after spending some time there.

Yes, they do very much believe its a case of French against Les Anglais.

[normanchateau]

Go spend some quality time in Quebec if you want to see that attitude in all its glory. The xenophobic attitudes and outright hatred of the rest of Canada can be quite an eye opener after spending some time there.

Perhaps if Harper follows Lord's recommendations and spends billions on promoting the French language outside of Quebec, the Quebecois will love us, vote Conservative and we'll all live happily ever after.

[Leafless]

Zing.....right over the top , and didnt even know it.

At least be man enough to explain WTF you are talking about before we write you off as a complete nut case.

[Leafless]

Perhaps if Harper follows Lord's recommendations and spends billions on promoting the French language outside of Quebec, the Quebecois will love us, vote Conservative and we'll all live happily ever after.

If Harper had any guts he would be promoting a revolution rather than being held hostage to the Liberal/Quebec game.

[guyser]

At least be man enough to explain WTF you are talking about before we write you off as a complete nut case.

If you insist.....your post made no sense, md asked you to repost in one of the official languages, and you didnt understand his wit and then you went off on some tangent about federal jurisdiction .

T'was a joke, ergo went right over your head.

[Leafless]

If you insist.....your post made no sense, md asked you to repost in one of the official languages, and you didnt understand his wit and then you went off on some tangent about federal jurisdiction .

T'was a joke, ergo went right over your head.

That depends how you interpret it.

Generally speaking, anything from MD is no joke but is written to belittle. In this case with the emphasis being on 'official languages' in which anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows the value of official languages as being totally worthless, designed by corrupt politicians for the advancement of French ideologies.

Obviously MD believes in advocating official languages as part of his gig, which I don't think is amusing, especially when it relates to racial discrimination.

Edited March 25, 2008 by Leafless

[Sean Hayward]

It is becoming increasingly clear to me that there is little support for official bilingualism on this forum, and, to my knowledge, in English Canada. My basic reason for supporting official bilingualism is as follows: To decrease divisions between English-speaking Canadians and French-speaking Canadians, to recognize the large French linguistic community which has existed for centuries within Canada, and to make it clear that French-speaking Canadians have a home in Canada. I know that these arguments will be rejected immediately by many of you reading this, and I do no expect to convince you.

Having lived most of my life in English Canada and witnessed the contempt for French-speaking Canadians there and being cognizant of the resentment that many Quebecers have of English-speaking Canadians, I am now starting to believe in Lord Durham's assessment that Canada is "two nations warring within the bosom of a single state". With policies such as official bilingualism, I believe that perhaps we could forge one nation from the situation we have inherited. However, looking back through history, it seems that every time an attempt to reconcile the differences between English-speaking Canadians and French-speaking Canadians, such as with official bilingualism, it only serves to drive a wedge between the two groups and divide us further. Are these two nations destined to always remain seperate? Are the differences between them irreconcileable? I say with a heavy heart, perhaps the answer to both these questions is yes.

For the time being we should retain official bilingualism, but if this arrangement (Quebec within Canada) continues to deteriorate and becomes more unworkable, then perhaps we need to rethink what Canada is. If Quebec does secede, taking almost all French-speaking Canadians with it, then the attempt to forge a bilingual nation has failed, and Canada will be a nation, a great nation, but not the same as it was before.

[guyser]

That depends how you interpret it.

No...no.....it does not depend on anything, it was a joke and you didnt get then nor do you get it now. S'all good tho.

[MontyBurns]

Screw bilingualism. It's just a waste of money. :angry:

Here's an idea: Let's let the French be French and let the English be English.