Tories seeking balance on immigration

[Sean Hayward]

We have gotten very off-topic here and I don't think it helps anyone, or furthers the debate on immigration, to be talking about the "anti-immigrant right-wing" or the "dishonest Liberal Party". Both are obvious over-generalizations and it serves no purpose to use them here.

When we talk about unemployment in Canada, we are usually talking about unskilled, undereducated people. It is a desperate argument to say that an immigrant doctor or engineer is taking a job away from a Canadian-born fisherman, forestry worker or factory worker.

[Argus]

Thanks. I'm sure it has contributed to the impression that the right wing is anti-immigration.

Which, as a member of and volunteer for the Liberal Party, is your assignment, right?

Edited March 21, 2008 by Argus

[Argus]

It has already become a problem for some businesses. They want to recruit younger workers and some are having success at it. The government has to give communities and business the opportunity to go after these people wherever they are

Most of those businesses who complain about problems are really trying to recruit cheaper workers, not younger ones. And they are uninterested in training. That's why during the last big "IT recruitment crisis" we had all kinds of graduates of IT programs unable to find work while the IT companies were screaming for the government to fast track immigration for them. It makes much more sense, economically, for them to hire experienced software engineers from India rather than hire Canadians out of university and train them. The Indians get paid less too.

I think we have seen how some of the right wing reacts to immigration. And it isn't just about how it is run

.

I think I've already pointed out what a nonsensical smear that is. The corporate business community loves immigration, the more the better, as far as they are concerned. This is so flat out obvious I would have thought your party would have come up with another tactic to try and smear Conservatives. Maybe you should go and check your hand book again.

You are incorrect. I can't remember a time when you were ever correct.

Have you got the intellectual honesty and capability to describe how I am incorrect, or is "You are incorrect" the sum total of your debating skills?

What a load of hoey.

I'm sure many on the right wing would have problem with him even if he did speak perfect English.

Why?

[Argus]

When we talk about unemployment in Canada, we are usually talking about unskilled, undereducated people. It is a desperate argument to say that an immigrant doctor or engineer is taking a job away from a Canadian-born fisherman, forestry worker or factory worker.

And who has said that? Other than Jdobbin, of course, who constantly invents such positions and then attributes them to the evil right wing.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Argus

[Sean Hayward]

Don't tell me about "the evil right-wing" as if that is something I am saying. I've already said I consider myself generally right-of-centre and I am a supporter of the Conservative Party. I think its a generally accepted fact that the vast majority of unemployed people in Canada are not highly-skilled people. Most unemploment problems in Canada arise from declining industries, such as the cod fishery in Newfoundland and the manufacturing sector in Central Canada. And this is not even something we have to debate because the purpose of the Conservative government proposal is to prioritize immigrants on the basis of skills requirements in Canada, so how could immigration ever cause unemployment in that system? That system wouldn't accept immigrants that have skills for which there is no demand in Canada.

[jdobbin]

And who has said that? Other than Jdobbin, of course, who constantly invents such positions and then attributes them to the evil right wing.

I just think some right wing have such positions. You don't?

[jdobbin]

Which, as a member of and volunteer for the Liberal Party, is your assignment, right?

What is your assignment?

[jdobbin]

Most of those businesses who complain about problems are really trying to recruit cheaper workers, not younger ones. And they are uninterested in training. That's why during the last big "IT recruitment crisis" we had all kinds of graduates of IT programs unable to find work while the IT companies were screaming for the government to fast track immigration for them. It makes much more sense, economically, for them to hire experienced software engineers from India rather than hire Canadians out of university and train them. The Indians get paid less too.

The downturn in the whole industry had nothing to do with that, huh? It was just a result of too many workers? I'm sorry. This was more of a case of a bubble in one industry that was growing at far beyond what was reasonable to expect in terms of sustainability.

I think I've already pointed out what a nonsensical smear that is. The corporate business community loves immigration, the more the better, as far as they are concerned. This is so flat out obvious I would have thought your party would have come up with another tactic to try and smear Conservatives. Maybe you should go and check your hand book again.

Have you got the intellectual honesty and capability to describe how I am incorrect, or is "You are incorrect" the sum total of your debating skills?

That is all that is required for a reply for you. Incorrect. It is about as big a generalization as that you accuse others of.

Why?

Because it isn't just about the language skills when it comes to the right wing having problems with immigration.

[Argus]

I just think some right wing have such positions. You don't?

I think some "right wingers" believe in polygamy, spaceships, and sex with children.

Some left wingers do to. So do some middle of the roaders.

But you are attempting to smear all conservatives as anti-immigrant based on their opposition to an immigration system which has been widely and notoriously judged as incompetent for decades.

[jdobbin]

Don't tell me about "the evil right-wing" as if that is something I am saying. I've already said I consider myself generally right-of-centre and I am a supporter of the Conservative Party. I think its a generally accepted fact that the vast majority of unemployed people in Canada are not highly-skilled people. Most unemploment problems in Canada arise from declining industries, such as the cod fishery in Newfoundland and the manufacturing sector in Central Canada. And this is not even something we have to debate because the purpose of the Conservative government proposal is to prioritize immigrants on the basis of skills requirements in Canada, so how could immigration ever cause unemployment in that system? That system wouldn't accept immigrants that have skills for which there is no demand in Canada.

You're correct in that regards. The IT industry problem was not as a result of thousands of immigrants coming in and taking those job or depressing the wages of those working in the industry. It came as a result of an industry growing at a rate that was not sustainable, colleges churning out IT workers and then a general slump in IT work world-wide.

Immigration Canada hears from businesses that need people for specific jobs. For example, there is a shortage of long haul truck drivers now. The industry has training centers all over Canada but still can't fill enough positions. It is a well paying job requiring a certain amount of training and ability to read and speak English or French. The industry now can sponsor people from outside the country to come and work those jobs. This is just one example of an industry looking for workers. They are not trying to suppress wages. The high paying jobs are going for the asking all over Canada in trucking. They just can't people willing to take them.

[jdobbin]

I think some "right wingers" believe in polygamy, spaceships, and sex with children.

Some left wingers do to. So do some middle of the roaders.

But you are attempting to smear all conservatives as anti-immigrant based on their opposition to an immigration system which has been widely and notoriously judged as incompetent for decades.

And you are attempting to smear all businesses with trying to suppress wages and causing unemployment.

[Argus]

And you are attempting to smear all businesses with trying to suppress wages and causing unemployment.

All business wants lower wages. If you understood anything about business you'd know that.

[Argus]

What is your assignment?

When my posting begins to approach yours, which is currently running close to 600 posts per month, and when I express unflinching support for the Tory party, and start a huge percentage of the threads here with smears and innuendo against other parties, then you can ask.

[jdobbin]

When my posting begins to approach yours, which is currently running close to 600 posts per month, and when I express unflinching support for the Tory party, and start a huge percentage of the threads here with smears and innuendo against other parties, then you can ask.

I ask when I want to ask and I'm asking now.

[jdobbin]

All business wants lower wages. If you understood anything about business you'd know that.

All businesses want lower costs. Lower costs are good for everyone. High inflation is bad for everyone generally. You keep isolating this as business and just wages and tying it to immigration. It just doesn't work.

Edited March 21, 2008 by jdobbin

[Argus]

I ask when I want to ask and I'm asking now.

I have never been a member of any political party.

Can you say the same? Honestly?

[jdobbin]

I have never been a member of any political party.

Can you say the same? Honestly?

I've been a member of the Liberal party. I'm not one presently.

Can you honestly say you are not right wing and subscribe to right wing beliefs?

[Argus]

You're correct in that regards. The IT industry problem was not as a result of thousands of immigrants coming in and taking those job or depressing the wages of those working in the industry.

And who said it was? Again, you argue against positions no one has taken.

However, it is true that much of the IT industry refused to train new grads. They wanted fully qualified and experienced IT specialists right off the shelf, and they discovered they could get these people, with years of experience, in other countries, for less money. Naturally they wanted to do so, and so they lobbied the government to smooth the way, pleading labour shortages.

Immigration Canada hears from businesses that need people for specific jobs. For example, there is a shortage of long haul truck drivers now. The industry has training centers all over Canada but still can't fill enough positions. It is a well paying job requiring a certain amount of training and ability to read and speak English or French. The industry now can sponsor people from outside the country to come and work those jobs. This is just one example of an industry looking for workers. They are not trying to suppress wages. The high paying jobs are going for the asking all over Canada in trucking. They just can't people willing to take them.

Simplistic and untrue. They don't have a problem getting people to take those jobs. They have a problem getting people to keep those jobs. Most people want to be home at night. Most people don't want to spend 12-14 hours a day driving on a highway. That's not to mention that in order to get into this business you need to get driver training which runs around $5,000-8,000. Not a lot of young unemployed people have that kind of money to put up for training.

You can bring in your foreign truck drivers, but in a year or two they're going to quit and take a better job, just like so many others in the industry.

[Argus]

All businesses want lower costs. Lower costs are good for everyone. High inflation is bad for everyone generally. You keep isolating this as business and just wages and tying it to immigration. It just doesn't work.

No, I've done nothing of the sort. I have pointed out that big business - which most identify as right wing, or conservative, is strongly in favour of immigration, despite your claims to the contrary. And the facts about immigration suppressing wages are simply undeniable. It's the law of supply and demand. The more workers available with a given skill-set the lower the wages they can command.

[Argus]

I've been a member of the Liberal party. I'm not one presently.

Can you honestly say you are not right wing and subscribe to right wing beliefs?

Define right wing? I support abortion rights, am against the death penalty, support public health care, and am not religious.

On the other hand, I support a strong military, fiscal responsibility, honesty and integrity in government, and stern punishments for criminals.

I believe in supplying education and skills training, not welfare, and believe people are responsible for the decisions and actions they make and take.

I suppose those last two are the ones you would most dislike.

And I don't believe you are not a member of the Liberal Party. Everything you write is in support of them, and 600 posts a month is way too much for someone who only follows politics casually.

[jdobbin]

And who said it was? Again, you argue against positions no one has taken.

However, it is true that much of the IT industry refused to train new grads. They wanted fully qualified and experienced IT specialists right off the shelf, and they discovered they could get these people, with years of experience, in other countries, for less money. Naturally they wanted to do so, and so they lobbied the government to smooth the way, pleading labour shortages.

Once again you are saying that the immigrants came here for lower wages that those already in the industry. Where is your citation for that?

Simplistic and untrue. They don't have a problem getting people to take those jobs. They have a problem getting people to keep those jobs. Most people want to be home at night. Most people don't want to spend 12-14 hours a day driving on a highway. That's not to mention that in order to get into this business you need to get driver training which runs around $5,000-8,000. Not a lot of young unemployed people have that kind of money to put up for training.

A lot of provinces and trucking companies pay for that training. There are a few trucking companies headquartered here and you can see it their signboards and newspaper ads. Paid training.

You can bring in your foreign truck drivers, but in a year or two they're going to quit and take a better job, just like so many others in the industry.

Actually, the problem for the industry is long time drivers retiring.

A certain stigma has been attached to dirty jobs like plumping, construction and driving even when they pay well.

Many provinces will not continue to sponsor drivers in for companies that don't make efforts to retain them.

See Alberta for an example of this. It is the same elsewhere.

http://www.alberta-canada.com/immigration/...e/trucking.html

The number of allocations approved to employers are based on factors including recruitment strategies and conditions, employment policies and practices, retention and settlement.

I find it hard to believe you solution to a real problem when it comes to something like truckdrivers is to say it is a bad job that no one wants to do. Not exactly true. It is just that it is hard to get Canadians to do it even though it pays well.

[jdobbin]

I suppose those last two are the ones you would most dislike.

No, it is generally your right wing stand on immigration and other cultures that I dislike.

And you can believe what you want about whether I have a membership. It is easy enough to check out whereas you are completely anonymous.

[jdobbin]

No, I've done nothing of the sort. I have pointed out that big business - which most identify as right wing, or conservative, is strongly in favour of immigration, despite your claims to the contrary. And the facts about immigration suppressing wages are simply undeniable. It's the law of supply and demand. The more workers available with a given skill-set the lower the wages they can command.

Please show your citation that business is strongly supportive of immigration. It isn't. They are all over the board on that subject. I don't identity all big business as right wing either. Many have more progressive attitudes on thing such as same sex relationships than provinces and states do. Many have called for better environmental protections.

This monolithic viewpoint is just not supported by the facts.

[Leafless]

I don't think those are the people we are talking about when we are talked about skilled workers like doctors and nurses.

Who says we need more doctors and nurses?

What we need are more beds, which equates to more hospitals, which in turn equates to more money.

The bottom line in this country relating to the failure of our health care system is money, relating to our current backlog of the many patients requiring operations and the lack of non-existent beds for long term care.

The system does not have the money to properly support the current demand for health care services in Canada. That is what the problem is.

I don't think you know what you are talking about relating to a shortage of skilled workers.

[jdobbin]

Who says we need more doctors and nurses?

You think we have adequate numbers now? No one you know is having a hard time finding a doctor who is not accepting patients? No hospital near you has closed beds because they don't have the staff to keep them open?

What we need are more beds, which equates to more hospitals, which in turn equates to more money.

Hospitals close beds now because they have no nurses or doctors to staff them. In the past, the thoughts were you closed beds to save money. What it created was hallway medicine.

I don't think you know what you are talking about relating to a shortage of skilled workers.

Putting more beds in hospitals doesn't mean there are staff to support them. Most people in the healthcare profession would smile at your solution of just putting in more beds. You seem to think there are plenty of doctors and nurses and the problem is only a lack of beds and hospitals.