Tories seeking balance on immigration

[WIP]

It would be nice if serious issues like immigration had honest brokers, but such a thing does not exist in the world of politics. Looking at the big picture, I would say that the pluses of immigration outweigh the minuses. Most of the people who are motivated to leave family and friends behind in third world countries are ambitious and more than pay back for what they've received in benefits. And of course we likely have no choice other than maintain at least present levels of immigration since our low birthrate would leave us with an ageing population unable to sustain itself( something like what's happened in Japan).

Dealing with immigration as a political issue means that all fair-minded people will have to walk a tightrope between pro-immigration Liberals, who have used immigrants as a tool to win elections, and the new Conservatives, who are picking up the potential windfall of tapping into white racism and xenophobia.

[Dog]

I see you working there WIP , Liberals are the fair minded enlightened ones and Conservatives are the racist xenophobes .

Edited March 21, 2008 by Dog

[WIP]

I see you working there WIP , Liberals are the fair minded enlightened ones and Conservatives are the racist xenophobes .

No, did you actually read it? The Liberals are aware of how politics works in third world dictatorships and democracies. Political parties represent local interest groups that could be defined by geography, race and/or religion. When they are able to emigrate to Canada, they naturally view the political structure that allowed them in as their patrons. I experienced this first-hand back in the 70's when I got to know some Ugandan refugees that were forced to flee Idi Amin's regime. They not only voted Liberal, they immediately signed up as party members and volunteered in each and every election, provincial and federal, for the next ten years regardless of what the Liberal Party was doing or what the isssues were. Obviously, their children are less likely to feel the same partisan loyalty, so that keeps fueling the need to recruit future Liberals from overseas.

[jdobbin]

Dealing with immigration as a political issue means that all fair-minded people will have to walk a tightrope between pro-immigration Liberals, who have used immigrants as a tool to win elections, and the new Conservatives, who are picking up the potential windfall of tapping into white racism and xenophobia.

Immigrants often vote for the party that is in power to fit in. They do this federally and provincially. If a particular party seems more hostile to immigration, they often shy away from it. If a certain party like the PQ seems intent on breaking up Canada, they shy away from it. Federally, the Liberals have benefitted because they've represented all three things to immigrants. Provincially, in say Manitoba, the NDP have benefited.

[Leafless]

You think we have adequate numbers now? No one you know is having a hard time finding a doctor who is not accepting patients? No hospital near you has closed beds because they don't have the staff to keep them open?

Everyone in Canada having a family doctor is the cause of many problems.

You tell me why a healthy 18 yr. old needs a family doctor or in fact why anyone needs a family doctor who is not ill requiring constant treatment or monitoring, for health problems?

People who get sick occasionally can use walk in clinics.

Hospitals close beds now because they have no nurses or doctors to staff them.

There is a shortage of nurses and doctors because they are not hiring them. Nurses for instance are reluctant to accept employment because usually it is only part time employment that is available.

The problem is money and not providing long term beds for the chronically ill, who are taking up space in our regular hospitals.

[jdobbin]

Everyone in Canada having a family doctor is the cause of many problems.

You tell me why a healthy 18 yr. old needs a family doctor or in fact why anyone needs a family doctor who is not ill requiring constant treatment or monitoring, for health problems?

People who get sick occasionally can use walk in clinics.

The majority of men in Canada don't see a doctor every year. Many don't have have a family doctor. Many do go to a walk-in clinic when they are sick.

There are still shortages of doctors out there though. The average age of doctors has risen steadily and many are retiring or about to retire after 30 to 40 years of service. Fewer people are going into family medicine and yet that is the primary care most people get.

Not every community has a walk-in clinic or doctors to service their emergency rooms. Even in big cities there is a shortage of oncologists, anesthetists, emergency room doctors, neurologists and so on. In the past some of this was attributed to people leaving for the U.S. but that has slowed to a trickle and some doctors are returning for rich packages or opportunities for research or teaching. In Winnipeg, neurosurgeons were attracted back for the opportunity to work with the Gamma knife. Still, that doesn't fill all the shortages in that position in Canada.

Many provinces to save money limited how many medical student they were taking in. All of them are increasing that number but retirements are outpacing training. It take several years to get a highly trained professional in the market and we are only getting started in the department.

There is a shortage of nurses and doctors because they are not hiring them. Nurses for instance are reluctant to accept employment because usually it is only part time employment that is available.

I don't know a health authority that doesn't have the "for hire" sign out. Many provinces have up to 3/4 of their nurse positions are full-time. The rest suit the nature of the work or the needs of the nurse. And yet, they still have hundreds of positions including full-time not being filled.

The problem is money and not providing long term beds for the chronically ill, who are taking up space in our regular hospitals.

Even long term hospitals require LPNs and RNs and there are shortages of both. Even healthcare aides are hard to come by in many places.

There are building programs all over the country for long term beds. You know what their main problem is? It is a shortage of construction workers due to so many projects happening all over the country.

[Leafless]

Not every community has a walk-in clinic or doctors to service their emergency rooms. Even in big cities there is a shortage of oncologists, anesthetists, emergency room doctors, neurologists and so on. In the past some of this was attributed to people leaving for the U.S. but that has slowed to a trickle and some doctors are returning for rich packages or opportunities for research or teaching. In Winnipeg, neurosurgeons were attracted back for the opportunity to work with the Gamma knife. Still, that doesn't fill all the shortages in that position in Canada.

We have lost many doctors and nurses to the more highly paid private health care system in the U.S.

And that does present a problem that will NEVER be rectified unless public health care is eliminated and the entire publicly paid health industry goes private.

We have lost many other skilled Canadians in other professions also.

This is (to some) one of the nice things living next door to a super power capitalistic society and is why Liberalism will never succeed to the extent some people would like to see it, in a country such as Canada.

[jdobbin]

We have lost many doctors and nurses to the more highly paid private health care system in the U.S.

And that does present a problem that will NEVER be rectified unless public health care is eliminated and the entire publicly paid health industry goes private.

We have lost many other skilled Canadians in other professions also.

And you think a private system would compete with a U.S system?

You've just said we have lost other professions to the U.S. Don't they operate in the private sector?

This is (to some) one of the nice things living next door to a super power capitalistic society and is why Liberalism will never succeed to the extent some people would like to see it, in a country such as Canada.

I know the right wing solution seems to be that the best system is one where some people don't have health insurance.

[jazzer]

And that does present a problem that will NEVER be rectified unless public health care is eliminated and the entire publicly paid health industry goes private.

Nice to see you have empathy for the 50 million or so in the States that do not have health coverage.

[Argus]

We have lost many doctors and nurses to the more highly paid private health care system in the U.S.

And that does present a problem that will NEVER be rectified unless public health care is eliminated and the entire publicly paid health industry goes private.

Nonsense. If the US has taught us anything it's that a completely private health care system is grossly inferior, grossly more expensive, and uses up an enormously greater proportion of its costs on administration. The US spends a huge amount on health care as a nation, but don't get health care as good as most European nations.

[Leafless]

Nice to see you have empathy for the 50 million or so in the States that do not have health coverage.

Those without health coverage are directed to county hospitals for treatment.

But be advised...apparently there are limits on procedures available, i.e. no heart transplants or similar major surgery.

[Leafless]

Nonsense. If the US has taught us anything it's that a completely private health care system is grossly inferior, grossly more expensive, and uses up an enormously greater proportion of its costs on administration. The US spends a huge amount on health care as a nation, but don't get health care as good as most European nations.

I agree, but nevertheless the U.S. acts as a magnet to attract members of the medical profession, leaving the cupboards bare in Canada.

But I am rather puzzled by the pompous attitude of many Canadians, that they should be so deserving of the most advanced health care procedures for FREE.

And how in a public health care system can you morally implement medical procedure restrictions without howling protest?

This is why I think a private system similar to the U.S. is the way to go.

[jdobbin]

Those without health coverage are directed to county hospitals for treatment.

But be advised...apparently there are limits on procedures available, i.e. no heart transplants or similar major surgery.

And a shorter lifespan.

[Leafless]

And you think a private system would compete with a U.S system?

Certaintly!

Canada being a smaller country, health care cost would be more expensive making doctors, nurses, very happy.

You've just said we have lost other professions to the U.S. Don't they operate in the private sector?

Yes they do, but the demand does not compare to doctors and nurses.

In other private U.S. sectors of employment, there is a lot of competition, so you have to be pretty good to break into their market, whatever your line of employment is.

I know the right wing solution seems to be that the best system is one where some people don't have health insurance.

The U.S. system looks after those without health insurance just like those who have insurance policies, the terms vary and as a result even with health care policies some receive better health care than others.

Who says life is fair?

[jdobbin]

Certaintly!

Canada being a smaller country, health care cost would be more expensive making doctors, nurses, very happy.

But according to you, we still wouldn't be able to compete and we'd lose even in a private system.

Yes they do, but the demand does not compare to doctors and nurses.

In other private U.S. sectors of employment, there is a lot of competition, so you have to be pretty good to break into their market, whatever your line of employment is.

The U.S. system looks after those without health insurance just like those who have insurance policies, the terms vary and as a result even with health care policies some receive better health care than others.

And those without health insurance get good care?

Who says life is fair?

I know. Social Darwinism. Only the fit and paying survive.

[WIP]

I agree, but nevertheless the U.S. acts as a magnet to attract members of the medical profession, leaving the cupboards bare in Canada.

But I am rather puzzled by the pompous attitude of many Canadians, that they should be so deserving of the most advanced health care procedures for FREE.

And how in a public health care system can you morally implement medical procedure restrictions without howling protest?

This is why I think a private system similar to the U.S. is the way to go.

Right now is a bad time to be advocating any U.S. government policies, whether health-care, economic or military! I would feel different about privatizing medicare if their system was working better than ours. They've finally realized that they need universal health coverage for at least the most basic care, but because they have a private system, the only way universal coverage can be implemented is by paying the HMO's first to manage the system.