Ontario Seeks "More Diverse" Prayer

[WIP]

That's both disrespectful and combative. Personal attacks are frowned upon here, I believe.

Canada was founded on the Judaeo-Christian ethic/tradition. That's just a fact you'll have to live with.

Drea did not make a personal attack on anyone! Her statement was mocking a protected belief that many people have in prayer and in supernatural beliefs that no one can provide a rational basis for. These beliefs are bound so tightly with emotion that the believers immediately interpret them as personal attacks. You can attack someone's political beliefs, moral and ethical beliefs as well, unless they are woven together with religious faith. Then they are off limits. Placed on the top shelf where they can't be examined or questioned.

Fine with me if you and others want to believe in things that fall into the supernatural category, but if you want them in the public square and part of our political discourse, then they should be subject to criticism.

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What do I believe? As an American I believe in generosity, in liberty, in the rights of man. These are social and political faiths that are part of me, as they are, I suppose, part of all of us. Such beliefs are easy to express. But part of me too is my relation to all life, my religion. And this is not so easy to talk about. Religious experience is highly intimate and, for me, ready words are not at hand.

---Adlai Stevenson

The problem is there are too many people talking about their faith and religious beliefs......even Democratic candidates for president feel like they have to fall in line and talk about how much their faith means to them.

When people are encouraged to reject evolution because it doesn't fit their church teaching, the theology behind this rejection of science should be on the table along with the evidence against creationism and intelligent design. And when a religious politician like George Bush, rejects embryonic stem cell research because of a simple-minded belief that newly fertilized eggs are "ensouled," then that belief should be questioned and the church authorities who propagate it should be asked to provide the evidence to support their belief. If an astronomer said: "I believe there is a planet on the other side of the Sun from Earth and out of our viewpoint, " his colleagues would demand some clear reasons to support this hypothesis, and when supernatural beliefs intrude into the real world, they should be made to provide their evidence as well!

[WarBicycle]

Yet another attack against Christianity in this country is taking place in Ontario where Premier McGuinty is seeking to have the Lord's Prayer that is recited each morning before legislature commences replaced with something "more diverse". History, tradition, and faith seem to have little significance in Canada, although Ontario always seems to have managed to hold on for just a little longer--out flag still bears the Union Jack (how long will that be the case)--and I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise that this is now happening. It's interesting how keen Canadians are in respecting other people's traditions, and have no problem in accepting that other countries and cultures can stubbornly hold on to "archaic" institutions (we even spend billions of dollars traveling to these places to experience these hallmarks of intolerance). Canada has it's own culture and heritage: Canada is a Christian country, founded by Europeans, with institutions based on European models; there is no reason why people who come to this country--regardless of where they come from--can't function and participate in our society without our traditions being constantly trashed or revised.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/National/

Just another reason why I'll never vote Liberal again.

[guyser]

Just another reason why I'll never vote Liberal again.

Because we abolish the lords prayer in queens park?

Uh...ok.

[Canadian Blue]

I vote to get rid of the prayer altogether, why add religion to a secular institution.

[capricorn]

Do politicians have to look to a higher power in order to govern properly? IMO, no. I would prefer politicians look within themselves to find the strength required to make decisions that are good for Canadians and are wanted by Canadians. Politicians don't need to invoke the name of one God or another in our public institutions plus there are just too many gods out there to do them all justice. If they want to pray privately that is their prerogative.

I agree with Canadian Blue. Drop the prayer entirely.

[Qwerty]

Gawd and Jebus help us -- another one... *sigh*

1. Young people don't watch the CBC. My grandfather used to watch -- I always considered it an "old" person's station.

2. Old laws out -- new laws in... and your problem with that is what exactly? Which laws that have been shelved would you like put back on the table?

3. My son is currently learing algebra, biology (the study of DNA) and Shakespeare...

4... and your kids are learning that the earth was "created" in six days... of course you did mean that they go to private religious school yes? Or do you have momma stay home and teach them how to bake cookies?

welcome to the forum Qwerty. .. you may or may not like it here.

Cheers!

Drea -- the resident atheist, feminist, teen girl defender!

No need to troll Drea. Btw being an atheist requires more faith then being a believer does. Just because you don't have faith doesn't mean that it is wrong for anyone else to believe. In the grand scheme of things neither of our opinions really matter. This is just entertainment for me.

I know Canada is now pretty much a leftist wasteland. Leftover's from some hippie era bong. Hopefully Canada will wake up before it's too late.

Our kids are brainwashed daily by socialists teachers who are close to becoming full blown communists. I don't want my children taught in this manner. Maybe Lenin and Trotsky are role models for many in Canada but they aren't good enough for me and mine, sorry.

I dislike the constant attack on anything that is Christian or points to traditional Christian values. Doesn't matter what it is. If it's Traditional or Christian it must be evil.

[Drea]

I'm sorry Qwerty, I shouldn't have slammed you from the get-go... for all know you could be a moderate centrist...

But it doesn't sound like you are... "leftist wasteland"??

Why do you consider it such?

Are you out of a job? Was your church forced to close it's doors?

Were you forced into a gay relationship?

What exactly makes our country a wasteland?

Tell us -- point form will do... what exactly is wrong in Canada in your opinion. Please provide specific examples, not just generalizations like "leftist wasteland".

Thanks in advance.

[Canadian Blue]

Our kids are brainwashed daily by socialists teachers who are close to becoming full blown communists. I don't want my children taught in this manner. Maybe Lenin and Trotsky are role models for many in Canada but they aren't good enough for me and mine, sorry.

I doubt both men are role models in Canada. As well I've had Conservative teachers and Socialist teachers. It's a real mixed bag.

I dislike the constant attack on anything that is Christian or points to traditional Christian values. Doesn't matter what it is. If it's Traditional or Christian it must be evil.

How about believing religion should be a private matter and not a government one.

[Qwerty]

I'm sorry Qwerty, I shouldn't have slammed you from the get-go... for all know you could be a moderate centrist...

But it doesn't sound like you are... "leftist wasteland"??

Why do you consider it such?

Are you out of a job? Was your church forced to close it's doors?

Were you forced into a gay relationship?

What exactly makes our country a wasteland?

Tell us -- point form will do... what exactly is wrong in Canada in your opinion. Please provide specific examples, not just generalizations like "leftist wasteland".

Thanks in advance.

To start with...no I'm not out of a job. I'm converting to Catholicism so my church is never closed. I'm not gay, but gay marriage is the reason I'm converting. I don't have kids I just through that in because it made my argument flow better.

Now examples of how Canada is turning into a Leftist wasteland...well it is mostly Ontario and BC, which is what led me to move to Alberta for four years.

-the opinion of the majority means nothing in this country and we are forced to be ruled by the minority or people that aren't even citizens of Canada

-Labour unions have way too much power

-government spends way to much money on social programs that do little to improve the lives of the majority if at all which the majority is forced to pay for

-tradition is being pushed aside for some vanilla flavoured Utopia where the traditions of other cultures supercedes the traditions of the majority

-Canada doesn't let in the right kind of immigrants that we need instead lets in anyone from a third world country who have little in the of skills for the most part

-Canada has a proud military tradition but is blasted by the left every time the government wants to upgrade our antiquated armed forces

-free speech is only for those that agree with the leftist ideals spouted by the minority otherwise one is labeled as bigoted in some fashion or another

I could go on and on but I'll leave at that for now.

[Qwerty]

I doubt both men are role models in Canada. As well I've had Conservative teachers and Socialist teachers. It's a real mixed bag.

How about believing religion should be a private matter and not a government one.

Geez, I never said that there were no conservative teachers of course there are but they are outnumbered by a long shot. Look no further than the On Teachers Pension Plan for proof. Striking is a left wing thing to do btw.

Religion is what help form the laws in this land in the first place and laid the foundation for Canada to exist in the first place. So now we are to suddenly remove all of that?

[Canadian Blue]

Geez, I never said that there were no conservative teachers of course there are but they are outnumbered by a long shot. Look no further than the On Teachers Pension Plan for proof. Striking is a left wing thing to do btw.

I require more than a Teachers Pension Plan and a strike to show that people are communists.

Religion is what help form the laws in this land in the first place and laid the foundation for Canada to exist in the first place.

I believe both Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece had put in place legal codes. However I'm not about to argue that the only reason we have current laws is due to Zeus.

As well many of the OT laws are not in place, just look at the book of Leviticus.

[Qwerty]

I require more than a Teachers Pension Plan and a strike to show that people are communists.

You mean to say that you don't think that the majority of teachers are left leaning?

That is absurd and foolish.

[M.Dancer]

I'm not sure how the pension plan, which acts as a huge source of venture capital funding returning $$$ to it's members qualifies as a communist plot.

Something that inherently capitalistic would get the board members hot in the USSR.

[M.Dancer]

I believe both Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece had put in place legal codes. However I'm not about to argue that the only reason we have current laws is due to Zeus.

As well many of the OT laws are not in place, just look at the book of Leviticus.

Well said. I justb shake my hea when I read someone saying our laws are based on the bible...The reason lawyers used to have to learn latin wasn't to read a translation of the Torah, but of the original roman jurisprudence

[Canadian Blue]

You mean to say that you don't think that the majority of teachers are left leaning?

That is absurd and foolish.

They more than likely are more left leaning, for the same reason that the military is usually right leaning.

[guyser]

I'm converting to Catholicism so my church is never closed. I'm not gay, but gay marriage is the reason I'm converting.

My condolences.

Now examples of how Canada is turning into a Leftist wasteland...

-the opinion of the majority means nothing in this country and we are forced to be ruled by the minority or people that aren't even citizens of Canada

A majority could be wrong so this country and the elected leaders are entrusted to do what is right. Major minor...does not matter.

-

-tradition is being pushed aside for some vanilla flavoured Utopia where the traditions of other cultures supercedes the traditions of the majority

We have a vanilla as it is. With the new people we let in we are getting a cardamom , cinnamon , chinese 5 spice, cilantro flavoured society. I like flavours, but you had it backward. We used to be vanilla.

Open your palate , your taste buds will rejoice.

-Canada doesn't let in the right kind of immigrants that we need instead lets in anyone from a third world country who have little in the of skills for the most part

Conservatives want to increase the amount coming in.

-free speech is only for those that agree with the leftist ideals spouted by the minority otherwise one is labeled as bigoted in some fashion or another

I could go on and on but I'll leave at that for now.

Naw...one gets that label using terms like "halloween constumes" and "blacks indians asians on killing sprees"

Best left at that for sure.

[WIP]

No need to troll Drea. Btw being an atheist requires more faith then being a believer does.

Naw, that's an empty, meaningless slogan concocted by either Ray Comfort or Josh McDowell. Atheism is a lack of belief in the supernatural, and beyond that it doesn't say alot about what beliefs the non-religious person adheres to. Generally they are formed on a basis of empirical knowledge, and you have to look to what those other beliefs are before you can declare that an atheist is motivated by faith or presuppositions.

The only major faith-based atheistic philosophies I'm aware of are Marxism - with its theories of class consciousness and historical materialism etc. that had to be accepted as presuppositions, and the libertarian objectivist philosophy developed by Ayn Rand, and still propagated by a devoted core of followers, could be regarded as another naturalistic faith!

But most atheists gravitate towards some broader form of secular humanism, which have different variations that can be developed, and upgraded when enough people feel a change is needed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

Just because you don't have faith doesn't mean that it is wrong for anyone else to believe. In the grand scheme of things neither of our opinions really matter. This is just entertainment for me.

Well, I don't regard forum discussions as entertainment. I'm looking for other opinions and developing my own beliefs.

I know Canada is now pretty much a leftist wasteland. Leftover's from some hippie era bong. Hopefully Canada will wake up before it's too late.

I guess I live in a leftist wasteland, since Hamilton ridings rarely elect candidates that aren't Liberals or N.D.P., that's what got me interested in blogs and forums when I first got my computer. But I've also discovered that many arguments from the right are baseless smears, like your next comment.

Our kids are brainwashed daily by socialists teachers who are close to becoming full blown communists. I don't want my children taught in this manner. Maybe Lenin and Trotsky are role models for many in Canada but they aren't good enough for me and mine, sorry.

I dislike the constant attack on anything that is Christian or points to traditional Christian values. Doesn't matter what it is. If it's Traditional or Christian it must be evil.

Personally, after a lifetime in various Christian denominations, I thought it over from the ground up and decided that I don't even consider the Christian ethical system based on Original Sin and the need for an intercessor to improve the human condition, to be a good basis for building ethics and morality, but that's not what draws my objections. It's the attempts by the religious to impose Christian values in deciding public policy issues that I object to. You don't get to hide your Christian faith behind your back when you're using it as the basis for advocating positions against gay rights, abortion, and funding Catholic schools and in the case of John Tory, trying to expand that to funding all religious schools.

And how many times do rightwingers think they can get away with this strategy of blame-shifting? Who's really in control of our society? The majority are Christian of some form or other. In Ontario, Catholic Schools are still fully funded by our education taxes through high school. And the other religions who want their religious schools funded have a valid point that Catholics receive a special priviledge over other religions.

But since Ontario is an increasingly multicultural province, my preference is that virtually all children attend the same public school that you hate, where children of different races and backgrounds are at least introduced to each other. In recent years in Hamilton, I've noticed that Muslim students, especially the girls, are disappearing from our local public schools and being bussed to a private Islamic academy on the Mountain. To me, this is a bad omen for the future! They'll come to this country and stay in their religious bubble, without any awareness of other peoples and other cultures.

The biggest mistake we could make would be charter schooling. Over in England, the big push to charter schooling has helped to exacerbate the ethnic separation to a point where it's been said that Muslims in East London could grow up and live their lives without any awareness or interaction with English society.

[M.Dancer]

You don't need faith not to believe. Disbelief require no proof, no effort.

Try it...

I believe there are UFOs visiting us from light years away.

I do not believe there are UFOs visiting us from light years away.

Which statement would require proof, or if there is a lack of proof, faith?

[Qwerty]

To me it is a sad world to live in without believing in anything at all outside of ourselves, that's just me. Not right nor wrong.

The liberal government will do exactly what I do not desire of it anyway, no matter what is said leftists will win over here in Ontario, the fght is over they already have. I'll probably end up going back out west or up north anyhow. Where people have similar mindset to my own.

Good day.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Qwerty

[Canadian Blue]

The liberal government will do exactly what I do not desire of it anyway, no matter what is said leftists will win over here in Ontario, the fght is over they already have. I'll probably end up going back out west or up north anyhow. Where people have similar mindset to my own.

Do you have any response outside of saying that the leftists always win?

[Qwerty]

Do you have any response outside of saying that the leftists always win?

Why is everyone jumping down my throat?

[Canadian Blue]

If you want an answer you should look at your previous 15 posts. Don't be surprised if people respond to your comments in a forum meant for political debate.

[Qwerty]

If you want an answer you should look at your previous 15 posts. Don't be surprised if people respond to your comments in a forum meant for political debate.

No one including yourself is interested in debate. You only seem to be interested in looking down your nose at me because I am a Conservative and a minority.

[Canadian Blue]

No one including yourself is interested in debate. You only seem to be interested in looking down your nose at me because I am a Conservative and a minority.

Not at all, I am a member of the Conservative Party and a white male. I look down on you because you can't back up any of your arguments with logic.

[Qwerty]

Not at all, I am a member of the Conservative Party and a white male. I look down on you because you can't back up any of your arguments with logic.

We're supposed to be fighting the enemy, which is liberalism, not me...what gives?