Why Jews Should Support Ahenakew and Zundel

[jbg]

Freedom has always required a significant degree of courage, a willingness to debate on the merits, and rule of law. Freedom is definitely not for cowards, or for children who cower behind their mothers from the world.

Jews have always done best in an atmosphere of freedom. While some Jews may have received temporary succor in the royal courts of Europe when needed as financiers, the favor never lasted, and the people never forgave them for sidling up to oppressors. In Europe, the freedom and well-doing of the Jewish people was always, at the best of times, fickle. As we all know it ended in tragedy in Hitler's Germany.

By contrast, the Jews in the US, Canada and Australia, where all that the people and countries cared about was what newly arrived pioneers could do and had to offer, and not how they worshipped, have always done well. They have advanced to the highest levels of business, the professions and government.

B'Nai B'rith has taken the "cowering" approach by asking for "hate crimes" and "human rights" laws to be passed, in order for the government to be enabled to persecute people like Zundel and Ahenakew for what they've said, and positions they've taken. Those positions are horrific and wrong. The Jews should, by right, be standing up strongly for the rights of Zundel and Ahenakew, since their rights are the very rights that have enabled Jews to thrive. Levant and Steyn recognize this, hopefully. There is no principaled way to let them speak, and to muzzle Zundel and Ahenakew.

Excerpts below, link to article:

Retrial of native leader called 'vindictive'

KATHERINE O'NEILL

February 2, 2008

A decision by Saskatchewan's Justice Ministry to retry disgraced former aboriginal leader David Ahenakew on hate-crimes charges is "vindictive," says his lawyer, Doug Christie.

***********

A ministry spokeswoman said the Crown hopes to proceed to trial within the year.

***********

B'nai Brith Canada, a Jewish advocacy group that was an intervenor in the appeal, had been calling on the Crown to take the case to the Supreme Court.

Edited February 3, 2008 by jbg

[maldon_road]

B'Nai B'rith has taken the "cowering" approach by asking for "hate crimes" and "human rights" laws to be passed, in order for the government to be enabled to persecute people like Zundel and Ahenakew for what they've said, and positions they've taken. Those positions are horrific and wrong. The Jews should, by right, be standing up strongly for the rights of Zundel and Ahenakew, since their rights are the very rights that have enabled Jews to thrive. Levant and Steyn recognize this, hopefully. There is no principaled way to let them speak, and to muzzle Zundel and Ahenakew.

And the crown has acquiesced. Ahenakew has disgraced and destroyed himself far better than by anything the State can bring to bear. But pressure from Jewish groups has resulted in a re-trial for a case whose penalty the first time round was a $1000 fine.

[Leafless]

Jews have always done best in an atmosphere of freedom.

Yes, and under their own conditions and thriving in an atmosphere of a segregated community away from the larger common culture with customs that greatly help personal careers.

Like many other cultures Jews have a bias preventing personal association with members of another culture.

This is the problem with multiculturalism in general as it encourages a bias against groups that segregate themselves and disassociate themselves from the larger common culture of the general population and even minority cultures.

We have these serious problems and biases between cultures of other countries.

Why would we foolish enough to create these same conditions within a country with a single common culture with the inevitable result of destroying our primary culture?

[maldon_road]

Yes, and under their own conditions and thriving in an atmosphere of a segregated community away from the larger common culture with customs that greatly help personal careers.

Like many other cultures Jews have a bias preventing personal association with members of another culture.

This is the problem with multiculturalism in general as it encourages a bias against groups that segregate themselves and disassociate themselves from the larger common culture of the general population and even minority cultures.

We have these serious problems and biases between cultures of other countries.

Why would we foolish enough to create these same conditions within a country with a single common culture with the inevitable result of destroying our primary culture?

I have lived most of my adult life in Jewish neighborhoods and I have noticed that Jews tend to socialize with one another. I have noticed that the same is true of Greeks, Italians and Portuguese. I have also noticed that Jews adapt well to the majority community while retaining their own religious and cultural traditions. Jews, when their religion is attacked, work within the social framework to seek redress. I'm not aware of anti-Jewish cartoons resulting in burning and looting and killing.

Edited February 3, 2008 by maldon_road

[Leafless]

I have lived most of my adult life in Jewish neighborhoods and I have noticed that Jews tend to socialize with one another. I have noticed that the same is true of Greeks, Italians and Portuguese. I have also noticed that Jews adapt well to the majority community while retaining their own religious and cultural traditions. Jews, when their religion is attacked, work within the social framework to seek redress. I'm not aware of anti-Jewish cartoons resulting in burning and looting and killing.

I agree with what you are saying but the problem you are talking about is complex and leaves society with no real answer relating from discrimination to extreme violence by minority groups and government should not place that burden on the majority of its innocent citizens in a democratic country.

That problem is:

Race, Ethnicity and Culture

Psychological Variables in the Ethiology of Deviant Behavior

http://www.erces.com/journal/articles/arch.../v01/v01_05.htm

[jbg]

Yes, and under their own conditions and thriving in an atmosphere of a segregated community away from the larger common culture with customs that greatly help personal careers.

Like many other cultures Jews have a bias preventing personal association with members of another culture.

Leafless, unless this is a major difference between our countries, it surely isn't something prevalent here. Even so-called "Jewish school districts", and mine, at about 60% Jewish is as Jewish as they come have significant mixing with other children. Both of my children have black, Irish, Italian and Waspish playmates. Many, too many couples are one spouse Jewish one not.

In the US, in short, aside from Chasidic areas Jews mix vigorously with other people. It is indeed common to have a non-Jewish guest or two at Jewish festive events. These guests are usually people who want to learn more about the Jewish religion and nation. At work my team on any given case invariably involves at least one non-Jewish attorney at the firm.

In short, Leafless (and again Canada may be different from the States in this regard) please learn your facts. In this case you'd be quite pleasantly surprised.

[Leafless]

Leafless, unless this is a major difference between our countries, it surely isn't something prevalent here. Even so-called "Jewish school districts", and mine, at about 60% Jewish is as Jewish as they come have significant mixing with other children. Both of my children have black, Irish, Italian and Waspish playmates.

I suppose it depends how Jewish you really are.

Middle class Jews, (also depending on country of origin) including the one in our family mingle more freely than domestically raised higher paid professionals.

But it is interesting to note that on a personal basis my sister was married to a Jew which ended in divorce due to their feverish pro-Jewish cultural mingling of his parents.

My daughter is currently married to a Jew and the same pro-Jewish divisive cultural mingling exist but is less problematic due to the fact his parents reside in another country, but nevertheless has a negative profound effect on my son-in-law.

I was raised on a street that harboured several Jewish families and associated with their sons.

But has soon as my male Jewish playmates reached the age of 13 and celebrated Bar Mitzvah my Jewish friends were no longer permitted to associate with me. This did not happen instantly but over a short period of time.

In short, Leafless (and again Canada may be different from the States in this regard) please learn your facts. In this case you'd be quite pleasantly surprised.

I know my facts and have observed the same type of Jewish segregated behavior as maldon_road, including the same type of behavior as other foreign minorities.

[jbg]

I suppose it depends how Jewish you really are.

My Jewish identity is quite sound; I am not that religious though.

Middle class Jews, (also depending on country of origin) including the one in our family mingle more freely than domestically raised higher paid professionals.

I was raised upper-middle class, am a relatively highly paid professional, though I am not wealthy. Where do I fit in.

But it is interesting to note that on a personal basis my sister was married to a Jew which ended in divorce due to their feverish pro-Jewish cultural mingling of his parents.

I meant "mingling" in the opposite sense, i.e. Jewish social integration with others.

My daughter is currently married to a Jew and the same pro-Jewish divisive cultural mingling exist but is less problematic due to the fact his parents reside in another country, but nevertheless has a negative profound effect on my son-in-law.

"Mingling" is not divisive unless coupled with proselitzation.

I was raised on a street that harboured several Jewish families and associated with their sons.

But has soon as my male Jewish playmates reached the age of 13 and celebrated Bar Mitzvah my Jewish friends were no longer permitted to associate with me. This did not happen instantly but over a short period of time.

Utterly, totally despicable, in my view, that any Jew would take that attitude. The Jews should remember that they need allies and friends, and must themselves be true friends of others.

I know my facts and have observed the same type of Jewish segregated behavior as maldon_road, including the same type of behavior as other foreign minorities.

Boy, I hope you're wrong.

[Leafless]

I was raised upper-middle class, am a relatively highly paid professional, though I am not wealthy. Where do I fit in.

You would know that better than anyone else.

It is apparent though you are not being compelled by members of you culture to exclude everyone else but members of your own culture or you would not be participating on this forum.

You could be classified though by members of your culture as one not being worthy of the Jewish faith.

I meant "mingling" in the opposite sense, i.e. Jewish social integration with others.

"Mingling" is not divisive unless coupled with proselitzation.

That is what I am talking about or being associated very closely with him staying within his own faith.

My son in laws parents refuse to accept he is married to a Christian and try to convince him it would be better to return home to marry one of his own faith, a Jew.

My sister lost out under the same conditions with her Jewish husband ending up in New York marrying another Jew.

[jbg]

It is apparent though you are not being compelled by members of you culture to exclude everyone else but members of your own culture or you would not be participating on this forum.

You could be classified though by members of your culture as one not being worthy of the Jewish faith.

That is what I am talking about or being associated very closely with him staying within his own faith.

You are describing Chasidim, or so I think. US Jewry has always been extremely open to Jews associating with non-Jews, running for elective office (remember, Joe Lieberman was pretty religious and he has plenty of association with a largely non-Jewish Senate), employing and being employed by non-Jews. Leafless, we agree 99% of the time. Why not check your facts?

My sister lost out under the same conditions with her Jewish husband ending up in New York marrying another Jew.

There must have been other marital problems. I respect your privacy on that score.

[Leafless]

You are describing Chasidim, or so I think.

Nope.

I have observed and experienced that the Jewish community has their own pecking order just like regular Canadian mainstream society.

US Jewry has always been extremely open to Jews associating with non-Jews, running for elective office (remember, Joe Lieberman was pretty religious and he has plenty of association with a largely non-Jewish Senate), employing and being employed by non-Jews.

You are being selective with your facts which I don't think are representative of the general American Jewish population.

Just check out Hollywood for example with the close knit association of many Jews in the various fields of movie productions.

There must have been other marital problems. I respect your privacy on that score.

Nope.

Just the emotional over cultural attachment to his parents biased views.

The only reason I brought all of this up was to illustrate the more subcultures a country harbours, the more cultural conflicts and cultural competition there will be. We in Canada know this is extremely costly and divisive.

That is why I believe we should be unified under the larger common culture, through the process of assimilation, which could or would have a positive impact relating to a more unified country with a country that harbours the same values.

[guyser]

Just check out Hollywood for example with the close knit association of many Jews in the various fields of movie productions.

"There are JEWS in Hollywood?"

(thanks to mel brooks)

[maldon_road]

US Jewry has always been extremely open to Jews associating with non-Jews

I agree. My comment was that Jews tend to socialize with one another. That does not mean that they are isolationists. All through my life I have associated with Jews. In my classes, in the workplace. I have hoisted pints with Jewish guys, screwed Jewish girls, had dinner with Jews in their homes. (Even once asked for milk with a meat dish. )

As I also said:

I have also noticed that Jews adapt well to the majority community while retaining their own religious and cultural tradition

And that is one of Judaism's great strengths.

[Leafless]

I agree. My comment was that Jews tend to socialize with one another. That does not mean that they are isolationists. All through my life I have associated with Jews. In my classes, in the workplace. I have hoisted pints with Jewish guys, screwed Jewish girls, had dinner with Jews in their homes. (Even once asked for milk with a meat dish. )

So you have yet to come clean to tell us what your culture/religion is?

[maldon_road]

So you have yet to come clean to tell us what your culture/religion is?

White, English speaking, brought up as a mainline Protestant - Congregationalist. Lost interest in religion after college.

[jbg]

That is why I believe we should be unified under the larger common culture, through the process of assimilation, which could or would have a positive impact relating to a more unified country with a country that harbours the same values.

This part of your post I agree with. I strongly dissent from the rest of your post.

[Leafless]

White, English speaking, brought up as a mainline Protestant - Congregationalist. Lost interest in religion after college.

Well, consider yourself fortunate for a gentile, if you managed to break the ice to the degree as you described in post#3.

Here is some info relating to the Jewish population in Canada.

http://www.amyisrael.co.il/na/canada/

[Leafless]

This part of your post I agree with. I strongly dissent from the rest of your post.

And you must ask yourself why Ahenakew is hitting on the Jews initially.

[maldon_road]

Well, consider yourself fortunate for a gentile, if you managed to break the ice to the degree as you described in post#3.

Here is some info relating to the Jewish population in Canada.

http://www.amyisrael.co.il/na/canada/

I work with them, have a drink with them, do some socializing. I don't regard that as "breaking ice". I do the same with people of other religions too.

[Leafless]

I work with them, have a drink with them, do some socializing. I don't regard that as "breaking ice". I do the same with people of other religions too.

Well, this is the amazing part.

I have been employed with several employers and have not encountered or worked with a single Jewish person.

And the same thing with schools, although in Ottawa, Jews are selective with their schools and obviously were not the same ones I attended.

Perhaps this is related to your type of employment.

[maldon_road]

Well, this is the amazing part.

I have been employed with several employers and have not encountered or worked with a single Jewish person.

And the same thing with schools, although in Ottawa, Jews are selective with their schools and obviously were not the same ones I attended.

Perhaps this is related to your type of employment.

I can't answer that question. There were Jews in my classes in Jr High, High School and College. I hung around with them. And I work with Jews. In fact the business associate right now I am closest too - we are confidants - is Jewish

[Ergonomic]

I thought that Ahenakew's comment about Jews being a disease was really stupid. Aboriginals in Canada get this sort of crap all the time, and his lack of sensitivity on the issue was dumb.

I read a Globe And Mail column on the week-end by Christie Blachford saying Aboriginal matters should be covered by the foreign desk. Earth to Christie: go back to the crime desk. Why not hire an Aboriginal reporter? Maybe that would be like hiring an Arab to cover the Wet Bank?

Hey, Greenspan, how about giving Christie a month on the Barbados beat?

Ahenakew was wrong, but everybody knows that. Maybe he was upset that pro-Israel commentators regularly compare the West Bank to the settling of the wild west...

The point has been proven. B'Nai B'rith can continue to prosecute him, or they can show mercy. But they have to stop seeing themselves as the General Custer of the Middle East, and that is not gonna be easy.

[Oleg Bach]

I thought that Ahenakew's comment about Jews being a disease was really stupid. Aboriginals in Canada get this sort of crap all the time, and his lack of sensitivity on the issue was dumb.

I read a Globe And Mail column on the week-end by Christie Blachford saying Aboriginal matters should be covered by the foreign desk. Earth to Christie: go back to the crime desk. Why not hire an Aboriginal reporter? Maybe that would be like hiring an Arab to cover the Wet Bank?

Hey, Greenspan, how about giving Christie a month on the Barbados beat?

Ahenakew was wrong, but everybody knows that. Maybe he was upset that pro-Israel commentators regularly compare the West Bank to the settling of the wild west...

The point has been proven. B'Nai B'rith can continue to prosecute him, or they can show mercy. But they have to stop seeing themselves as the General Custer of the Middle East, and that is not gonna be easy.

The Holocaust bycicle will be ridden around the block one more time...it's a lucrative and protective buffer - you want to shut someone down politically - or legally? Just whisper and start a rumor that your advesary is anti-semetic - works every time. As fars as the money laundering centre - that secualist gangster state hiding behind a religion - yep - Israel - I guess they got real pissed off at Conrad Black and the Jerusalem Post - seeing dear Conrad toyed with their lives just a little to long.. One thing I can say to the conspiracy theorist..and it's true - the Jews are in part just common henchmen - and they do the work of the neo-Nazis.....So you can blame the Jews and now the Muslims when all goes bad - but you should be blaming the anglo bastards in London who cut the cheques - after all - the anglo pricks control it all and just use the Jews as fall guys - and sometimes as highly skilled mystic cabalist bureacratic liars.

[Rue]

Oh Leafless you stated in regards to Jews some generalizations we do need to discuss;

You stated;

" Yes, and under their own conditions and thriving in an atmosphere of a segregated community away from the larger common culture with customs that greatly help personal careers."

Actually if you did a balanced investigation into the history of Jews you would find Jews did not prosper in ghettos at all and in fact died out from disease or slaughter because their concentration caused disease or easy targets to wipe out and it was the ones that left the ghetto that survived and were able to send money back to those trapped in the ghetto and constantly kept moving and resisted bogging themselves down in ghettoes that survived. I am alive precisely for that reason.

The disaspora Jews is what keeps Israel alive today and the Israeli state will tell you it could not survive unless there were Jews willing to support it who will not live in Israel. For that matter all ethnic groups and races and any life form that stagnates with in-breeding and/or staying in one location soon becomes extinct. One need only look to life forms to see which ones died out first-the ones with very specific diets who could only live in a specific environment. Jewish history proves the exact opposite of what you say.

You stated;

" Like many other cultures Jews have a bias preventing personal association with members of another culture.'

No Leafless. First of all you generalize on behalf of all Jews. I would concede ultra-orthodox Jews, i.e., Hasidic Jews or orthodox Jews might, certainly not other Jews. In fact many Jews have a bias against each other more then they do non Jews. Its a lot more complex then you generalize it as. If you are talking about the fundamentalist Jewish movements, I absolutely agree with you and I have a funning feeling that is all you really meant/

You stated;

"This is the problem with multiculturalism in general as it encourages a bias against groups that segregate themselves and disassociate themselves from the larger common culture of the general population and even minority cultures."

I agree with you it can if its taken to its extreme. But I can make the exact same arguement about uni-culturalism for the exact same reason. The key is balance and moderation between one extreme and the other.

You stated;

"We have these serious problems and biases between cultures of other countries."

I can say to you Leafless honestly I have had very intense debates with my fellow Jews who believe it is acceptable to distrust non Jews and think they are better Jews if they only stay with their own people. But then I know people of every colour, religion, ethnicity, culture, gender, gender preference, who have said the same to me about their groups.

You stated and herein lies the paradox;

"Why would we foolish enough to create these same conditions within a country with a single common culture with the inevitable result of destroying our primary culture?"

Do you not see the paradox. If you genuinely believe a primary culture means all others should be subordinate to it are you not in fact creating a cultural ghetto, the very ghetto you criticized Jews for?

I know you are convinced the "English/British" culture is the primary one all others should defer to.

Personally the only genuine primary culture I know of in Canada is the aboriginal one, and it is not in their culture the last time I looked to want to exterminate me provided I don't try kill them or ignore their spiritual codes. Not so much to ask and in fact their holistic culture has made it easier for me to reconcile myself with Judaism which is also a holistic one but was side-tracked by schools of thought similiar to those in Christianity and now Islam, which turned spiritual holistic concepts into simplistic rigid inflexible doctrines.

I again would argue, Canadian culture is first and foremost aboriginal, then Anglo and Franco, then a constantly changing mix of many other cultures and one can balance them all-one can remain on one level connected to their ethnicity and culture, while on another level a Canadian.

I do not see things as rigid and delineated. I see culture or religion as fluid and able to take on infinite shape not just one mold. Its why I believe aboriginals are quite capable of maintaining their world while interacting with all of us in another. They don't have the problem with being flexible and fluid and seeing all things as forming a greater whole. It has been or Western doctrine that seems to have gone off on a tagent and fixated itself to materialist values that make things very rigid and inflexible.

No I can respect the role of British law and culture in the creation of Canada, but it doesn't mean I have to consider any other subordinate to it or endangering it or vice versa.

That is the only true point of contention between us and it is actually a minor one. We would both concede without certain laws we must all follow-it all becomes a moot point and we would descend into civil war and kill ourselves.

[Leafless]

You stated;

" Yes, and under their own conditions and thriving in an atmosphere of a segregated community away from the larger common culture with customs that greatly help personal careers."

Actually if you did a balanced investigation into the history of Jews you would find Jews did not prosper in ghettos at all and in fact died out from disease or slaughter because their concentration caused disease or easy targets to wipe out and it was the ones that left the ghetto that survived and were able to send money back to those trapped in the ghetto and constantly kept moving and resisted bogging themselves down in ghettoes that survived. I am alive precisely for that reason.

The disaspora Jews is what keeps Israel alive today and the Israeli state will tell you it could not survive unless there were Jews willing to support it who will not live in Israel. For that matter all ethnic groups and races and any life form that stagnates with in-breeding and/or staying in one location soon becomes extinct. One need only look to life forms to see which ones died out first-the ones with very specific diets who could only live in a specific environment. Jewish history proves the exact opposite of what you say.

What does Jewish history prove?

We are familiar with some Jewish families and it was noted that not only the family members died at an early age, they were also inflicted with rare diseases which indicates faulty breeding.

You stated;

" Like many other cultures Jews have a bias preventing personal association with members of another culture.'

No Leafless. First of all you generalize on behalf of all Jews.

No I am not generalizing.

I have them in the family and when living with my parents we had four families on our street and friends and associates all say pretty much the same thing, they live by themselves in selected neighbourhoods, similar to other sub-cultures. In fact throughout my working history, I have not met a Jew anywhere.

Incidentally, this is not an attack on Jews but to say most Jews are fundamentalist, I would agree with that statement.

You stated;

"This is the problem with multiculturalism in general as it encourages a bias against groups that segregate themselves and disassociate themselves from the larger common culture of the general population and even minority cultures."

I agree with you it can if its taken to its extreme. But I can make the exact same arguement about uni-culturalism for the exact same reason.

Not really Rue, as most people in non official multicultural countries respect that countries majority culture. The outcome of 'official multiculturalism' in Canada, is unknown but probably will fail like its cultural partner, the forced application of bilingualism in Canada.

That is the only true point of contention between us and it is actually a minor one. We would both concede without certain laws we must all follow-it all becomes a moot point and we would descend into civil war and kill ourselves.

Imposed cultural laws could invite and encourage what you are talking about and not prevent it.