Don't Take Your Poppies To Court

[jefferiah]

http://www.rclbr50.ca/news/item.asp?T=12&NID=287723646

(This story failed to make the national news for a long time. It occured in a courtroom in Kitchener Ontario roundabout Rememberance Day.)

"An incident in a Kitchener court room has surprised and disappointed a Royal Canadian Legion official.

Shortly before Remembrance Day, a Waterloo regional police officer who was testifying during a case was told by the presiding judge that he should not have worn a poppy into her courtroom.

According to a court transcript, Justice Margaret Woolcott of the Ontario Court of Justice told Const. Dan Haines that the poppy may not be viewed as a "totally acceptable" or "totally neutral" symbol by everyone who comes to court."

Edited December 16, 2007 by jefferiah

[Borg]

I know many hate links - here it is.

The judge is obviously an ass of the highest degree - a wonderful reflection on not only her profession, but her education and her life.

I think she needs a kick in the buttocks.

Christie says it best in her closing.

Borg

-------------------------------------

A judge spouts poppycock about wearing a poppy in court

By CHRISTIE BLATCHFORD

Saturday, December 15, 2007 – Page A2

I don't know much about Margaret Woolcott.

An old picture in the Toronto Star from 1993, when she was sworn in as an Ontario Court judge, shows an attractive blonde with a big smile. The formal announcement a month earlier from the late and unlamented New Democratic Party government led by then-New Democrat, now-Liberal Bob Rae - well, it's not fair to say it was entirely unlamented, because I still mourn its passing, those being the days when getting a great story about government ineptitude was akin to shooting fish in a barrel -- notes that Judge Woolcott spent her legal career as an agent with the federal Department of Justice in Brampton, Ont. Google shows that her name appears often in recent years as a donor to a charity affiliated with her local Rotary Club.

Nothing in that small bit of background gives a clue as to what would lead Her Honour to make the peculiar remarks she did earlier this month in a Kitchener courtroom.

The story surfaced first only this month in the pages of the Kitchener-Waterloo Record, but that appears to be because it took some time for the newspaper to get transcripts of the proceedings in Judge Woolcott's court on Oct. 31.

According to Record reporter Brent Davis, working from the transcript, the judge was presiding over an assault with a weapon case in which Waterloo Regional Police Constable Dan Haines was testifying as a witness.

In the modern fashion - wherein, thanks to politicians and TV broadcasters, Remembrance Day has become Remembrance Week or even Remembrance Weeks - the officer was wearing a poppy in the courtroom.

Now in my view, he was jumping the gun by at least a week, but as I say, plenty of people do that now. And that certainly wasn't the issue as Judge Woolcott saw it.

As Constable Haines was completing his evidence, the judge said, "I think that somehow I owe you something in training. I wouldn't wear my poppy to court."

"Oh, okay," said Constable Haines.

"Because however much - and I really probably should have said something to [defence lawyer Richard Prendiville, who was also wearing a poppy] - but however much you may think that's a totally acceptable symbol, and that it is totally neutral, that might not be entirely the case for everybody who comes to court," the judge said.

"It represents a symbol of support," she continued, "and I suspect that 99.999 per cent of us happily wear it outside of the courtroom. You probably should not wear anything like that in court."

Then she hinted that she was cutting the officer some slack, since it was his first time appearing before her, but said that if it happened again, she might ask him to remove the poppy. A reasonable inference from the judge's own remarks is that it may indeed be her intention, if not her practice already, to ban poppies from her courtroom.

As you may imagine, once reported in the local paper on Dec. 8, the story caused a fair stink: The Royal Canadian Legion expressed dismay; protesting letters flooded the Record; the paper published a thundering editorial slamming the judge, and this week, the Record's sister paper, the Toronto Star, ran a version of the piece.

The Record tried to get comment from Judge Woolcott, but failed, and duly regurgitated the standard line about how "members of the judiciary typically don't comment," and then tried the senior regional justice, who was unavailable, and finally quoted the administrative justice for the area, Judge Gary Hearn, saying the matter had been dealt with in a closed-door meeting with Waterloo Police.

(The truth, of course, about Canadian judges is that while they typically don't comment on issues when it suits them, they always manage somehow to get the word out when they feel overworked, underpaid, underloved or misunderstood. Funny how that works.) Isn't that just lovely? A judge says something so profoundly offensive and so stupid that a legitimate brouhaha springs up spontaneously in a populace who hardly rile easily, and then it is all settled quietly away from prying eyes, akin to those hushed discussions that take place in chambers, what one of my friends used to sneeringly call "super-secret court."

Who on Earth ever considered that the poppy was "totally neutral"? Neutral in what way? The poppy is a symbol, and if a symbol were totally neutral, presumably it would symbolize nothing, or at least nothing so interesting and important that 99.999 per cent of Canadians happily wear it, which by the judge's admission they do. The only neutrality the poppy has is that it is apolitical: It belongs to no one party, no one group, no one way of thinking.

Perhaps Judge Woolcott doesn't know quite what the poppy symbolizes. She appears to think she knows. She told the officer it was "a symbol of support." Support for what, or whom?

The only reasonable inference, to use that judge-ly language again, is that she believes it a symbol of support for war, perhaps particularly for the Canadian effort in Afghanistan.

But it isn't, of course. The poppy symbolizes the collective remembrance of all war dead, including those 73 young Canadians who have perished in Afghanistan, which is hardly the same thing.

I have spent a good part of my working life in this country's courtrooms. I have seen judges ask people to doff tuques and hats, remove buttons with political slogans, and to cover up T-shirts with same. I have never seen a judge ask someone to remove a poppy, the very symbol of those who gave their lives so that, among other democratic gifts, the justice system with all its rights and protections might flourish. Nor have I ever heard one muse aloud that this would be a fine idea.

But then, as I said off the top, I don't know much about Margaret Woolcott, just all I need to know.

Edited December 16, 2007 by Borg

[jbg]

Quoting from article:

"It's regarded everywhere as a symbol of service and sacrifice of Canada's veterans," said Sheamus Murphy. "They fought for the freedom that our system of justice upholds."

This is a sad day.

[WestViking]

The poppy that police officer wore symbolizes thousands of Canadians who gave their lives to ensure that Judge had a bench to sit on. The Judge should be required to make a public apology, during Remembrance Day ceremonies in the town where she presides every year until she dies. She is one who has forgotten those who died for her freedom.

Edited December 16, 2007 by WestViking

[jbg]

WV -

Very well said. I don't see you on here too often but you make some very good points.

[Borg]

The poppy that police officer wore symbolizes thousands of Canadians who gave their lives to ensure that Judge had a bench to sit on. The Judge should be required to make a public apology, during Remembrance Day ceremonies in the town where she presides every year until she dies. She is one who has forgotten those who died for her freedom.

Never happen.

The only time the "impartial" judiciary goes public is to complain about salary.

Borg

[Wilber]

We need a lot more Christie Blatchfords and a lot fewer Margaret Woolcotts.

[jbg]

We need a lot more Christie Blatchfords and a lot fewer Margaret Woolcotts.

That Judge is a disgrace to the legal profession, to Canada and most importantly to herself. She should rot in h***.

[cybercoma]

I find that whole comment even more disgusting since it came from a judge. I have reservations about the poppy being used to remember ALL veterans, because I think it's important that we specifically remember those who gave their lives in WWII. In that sense, I'm completely appalled that this judge thinks it's appropriate to tell someone that it's inappropriate to remember those who died fighting against the horrors of Nazi Germany in the Second World War.

[Wilber]

I find that whole comment even more disgusting since it came from a judge. I have reservations about the poppy being used to remember ALL veterans, because I think it's important that we specifically remember those who gave their lives in WWII. In that sense, I'm completely appalled that this judge thinks it's appropriate to tell someone that it's inappropriate to remember those who died fighting against the horrors of Nazi Germany in the Second World War.

Small point but the use of the poppy comes from WWI where more Canadians died than it WWII.

[Wilber]

I see no difference in commitment between those who lost their lives in the two world wars, Korea, peace keeping or currently in Afghanistan.

[jbg]

I see no difference in commitment between those who lost their lives in the two world wars, Korea, peace keeping or currently in Afghanistan.

I am guessing that by now the poppy is a sign of respect for all soldiers, past, present and future.

This is just a guess, since I am not Canadian and know nothing about Canada.

[Wilber]

I am guessing that by now the poppy is a sign of respect for all soldiers, past, present and future.

This is just a guess, since I am not Canadian and know nothing about Canada.

It's a sign of remembrance for those who have died for their country. I should think that one could respect that at least, even if they aren't big fans of the military.

[leonardcohen]

It's not necessarily that i'm offended

that The Judge made the comment,

although i am,it's that she saw it not

fit to respond to the brouhaha she created

by hiding behind the guise of judicial privilege.

That shows cowardice and i despise that.

[jefferiah]

Small point but the use of the poppy comes from WWI....

That is what Cybercoma was saying.

[Wilber]

It's not necessarily that i'm offended

that The Judge made the comment,

although i am,it's that she saw it not

fit to respond to the brouhaha she created

by hiding behind the guise of judicial privilege.

That shows cowardice and i despise that.

I agree, her comments had nothing to do with the case she was hearing or the justice system in general. It is simply her own prejudice and she is a coward not to address it.

[Wilber]

That is what Cybercoma was saying.

I have reservations about the poppy being used to remember ALL veterans, because I think it's important that we specifically remember those who gave their lives in WWII.

What did I get wrong?

[jefferiah]

What did I get wrong?

Well, actually now I am not so sure, cuz re-reading your post it could depend on what you meant. It's nothing big anyway. Just that when he said ALL veterans he was acknowledging the fact that the Poppy was not a WWII symbol, and this is why he was saying he has some small issue over the Poppy. He said this because he feels World War II is especially important. Not that I think he is overly concerned. He simply pointed out that the Poppy is not a symbol of both wars. But rather I think it has become a Canadian symbol of war vets in general. Anyways small potatoes.

[capricorn]

This person is not fit to sit as a judge in a Canadian courtroom!!!

I wonder what she would do if she spotted someone in her courtroom wearing a white poppy, the symbol of peace at all cost and an affront to the Remembrance poppy. Would she have treated the wearer in the same way? Odds are she wouldn't have.

[Oleg Bach]

Well, actually now I am not so sure, cuz re-reading your post it could depend on what you meant. It's nothing big anyway. Just that when he said ALL veterans he was acknowledging the fact that the Poppy was not a WWII symbol, and this is why he was saying he has some small issue over the Poppy. He said this because he feels World War II is especially important. Not that I think he is overly concerned. He simply pointed out that the Poppy is not a symbol of both wars. But rather I think it has become a Canadian symbol of war vets in general. Anyways small potatoes.

No Christmas trees in the court - heaven forbit the controlable masses are cheerie and thus not as controlable. The poppie== what the hell is that about - what motivates these monsters that sit on the bench - and are called honourable? Saw something today as I crossed University Avenue - dead center up north directly infront of the Provincial Legislature is a huge and outstanding Manora - a real big mother - not a cross or a moon of Islam nor even an old fashioned Christmastree - but a symbol belonging to one singular group called the Jews ...this Manora dominates the landscape and the legislature - it was a bit depressing - to see that this group are bold enough to say "we own the courts and now we own the province" _ I was offended - but if I perk up in come the P C sqaud ready to glue a sign that says anti-shemite on my forhead..so the poppies - are removed from an officers uniform in a court - This is a statement that says - "thanks for nothing sucker - you would think that Israel would at least send us a thank you note for Christmas in the fact that we sacraficed 80 Christian boys on their behalf in Iraq and Afghanisatan - can anyone spell INGRATE?

[Wilber]

I was just pointing out that the poppy symbol comes from WWI, not WWII ("In Flanders fields the poppy's grow" and all that) so I don't know why the dead of WWII or any other war should be singled out as being more important. They are all equally worthy. The poppy is used as a symbol of remembrance in most Commonwealth countries.

[Oleg Bach]

I was just pointing out that the poppy symbol comes from WWI, not WWII ("In Flanders fields the poppy's grow" and all that) so I don't know why the dead of WWII or any other war should be singled out as being more important. They are all equally worthy. The poppy is used as a symbol of remembrance in most Commonwealth countries.

The wanna be powers that be do not want us to remember anything - they want us to have no history - no heritage - no honour...Seems that they want us to have no past in order to control our future - to be like dumb turnip heads that just fell off the truck! Damn these ingrates! How dare they say that our fathers and grandfathers who died to save their asses did not exist - and that they owe us nothing and that to say - that we had ancestors that died for the common good makes us superiour - well it does - who is enlisting these days? No one except of the decendants of the old white Christians - they want the oil and they want security from terror - but the bastards do not want to say thank you when we shed our blood to ensure freedom - this is the spitting in the eye of the men and woman who created this nation - and and insult to the grandchildren of those that died so the weak could live.

[Borg]

Well, the controversy continues in the NP -

Seems old Tom is also on his high horse.

No one would have the lifestyle they do today - good, bad or indifferent if the boys and girls from Canada and other Allied countries had not gone off to do their duty. Even peace loving folk mustrealize this?.

It is Remembrance - not war.

Too bad we continually keep this going. Did no one take history, or is it just those with a privileged platform attempting to make a point - they can be seen, heard and are not required to respond?

Borg

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The poppy stands for war

National Post

Published: Friday, December 14, 2007

Re: Respect The Poppy, editorial, Dec. 13.

In Waterloo County, Ont., where Justice Margaret Woolcott sits on the Ontario Court bench, there is a large Mennonite population, who have a long and worthy history of adherence to non-violence and peace-making and are opposed to war and killing. Among this group of loyal Canadian citizens (whom you have blithely labeled "hateful eccentrics") the wearing of a poppy is generally viewed as glorification of war and all it entails.

Mennonites understand very well the disasters and destruction that accompany war and aggression -- they historically experienced these disasters themselves, as the persecuted targets of governments who were unwilling to accept and respect their policies of non-resistance and nonviolence. I have no idea what Justice Woolcott's personal views may be on this issue, but I commend her for displaying sensitivity to the fact that there are legitimate, alternate views in our society about the efficacy of war and violence in solving human problems. This opinion does not minimize the tragic loss of lives experienced in war but rejects the implicit endorsement of violence and military struggle which the poppy signifies.

Justice Woolcott recognized that wearing a poppy in a courtroom is essentially a political statement, made by a police constable whose line of work also entails the potential use of force and violence to uphold the law. Not all Canadians feel comfortable with that political view, nor should they, as she correctly pointed out to the officer in question.

Ted Dueck, Waterloo, Ont.

[jefferiah]

I was just pointing out that the poppy symbol comes from WWI, not WWII ("In Flanders fields the poppy's grow" and all that) so I don't know why the dead of WWII or any other war should be singled out as being more important. They are all equally worthy. The poppy is used as a symbol of remembrance in most Commonwealth countries.

No I know. I realize that. I was just pointing out that Cybercoma already knew that it was from World War 1. Small potatoes.

[Wilber]

Mennonites understand very well the disasters and destruction that accompany war and aggression -- they historically experienced these disasters themselves, as the persecuted targets of governments who were unwilling to accept and respect their policies of non-resistance and nonviolence.

No need to pay any respect to those who died defending their right to live in a country which does respect their policies of non-restance and non violence, no matter how much those policies depend on the sacrifices of others.

Now wearing a poppy is a political statement. Which party does it belong to?

Ted Dueck is a twit of the first order.