Muslim father chokes daughter to near death

[Rue]

Some see Canada as an evolving country of uncivilized immigrants.

Don't you?

I didn't know you were an immigrant. Is that the explanation?

[Rue]

The point is to pretend this murder is not linked to someone's fundamentalist religious beliefs is bull-shit. This man killed his daughter because in his opinion she was not honouring Muslim traditions. In this man's mind, he is a Muslim who lost his temper disciplining a girl who would not be his version of Muslim. Tp pretend we just ignore he is a Muslim and his Muslim fundamentalist beliefs should not be referred to is bullshit.

If we was a fundamentalist Hindu, Hew or Christian we would be looking at the religious connection as well.

The point is many people who are Muslim come to this country, and try impose a Muslim fundamentalist faith on their families and children as taught to them by their Immams. In fact an Immam went on t.v. supporting the father saying his daughter was disobedient to Islam. Another Immam called the first Immam full of it. To pretend there are not factions of Islam in Canada and some are coming into direct conflict with our laws and norms is bullshit.

You want to see bullshit just look at Buffy's response trying to suggest if someone questions the role of fundamentalist religion in this matter, they are racist but this coming from someone who will make sweeping generalizations about Jews if it suits her and by the way joined Drea's band-wagon on Germany forgetting the problems 3.2 million Muslims

are experiencing in Germany with intolerance.

Got a news flash for you Buffy the political groupy or anyone else its not anti-Islam to say religious fundamentalism is at the heart of this issue. Of course it is.

Feminism? Don't want to hear it? Tough. What do you think this is? Its about men beating up and killing women they can not control. Its domestic violence pure and simple fueled by religious beliefs.

I can criticize it as gender violence using Islam as a pretence because that is what it was. Does it mean I hate Muslims? No. Does it mean I have a problem with Muslims and their Immams who preach fundamentalism and that women obey their husbands and cover their faces because the Immam or husband says so-yes. Am I going to pretend in certain mosques this does not happen, no. I have Muslim women friends who chose to where the Hijab-I support them. I know other women who do not. I support them. What I do not support is their husbands, brothers, Uncles, Immams tryingt o impose fundamentalist standards on them and no I will not pretend it has nothing to do with Islam.

This is not the first time this kind of violence has happened and it will not be the last. In this country we all must follow certain rules and laws and one of them is you do not put your hands on a woman for any reason when she is an adult.

This man has no excuse. Anyone knee jerk reacting and claiming its anti-Muslim to look at the role of Muslim fundamentalist beliefs fueling domestic violence is a hippocrate. All religions must be criticized. You have no free get out of jail cards. No don't play that poor Muslim shit with me. I criticize everyone equally Buffy. Save your selective liberal guilt and whose band-wagon you jump on for someone else.

[kengs333]

I didn't hear about that one...was he killed by a woman?

Men are doing the killing. It's the rare occurance (more all the time though -- equality in good and bad I guess) that a woman is the killer.

I believe in both cases the killer is still at large. I suppose theoretically one could assume that the killers were males, and of course nobody would have issue with that, but one could go a step further and suggest that the killer was a member of an ethnic minority. It's difficult to say who a killer was if someone gets sprayed in a drive by, or is found stabbed in a hotel stairwell, but it's not always what people would like to assume. Moreover, violence is a matter of socialization; Christian society is responsible for making women virtuous and non-violent, and now that that is being undone, there is a noticeable increase in overt violent behaviour perpetrated by girls/women. (Anyone who studied human aggression will tell you that aggression among women is something that receives less attention and manifests in much more subtle ways).

Women are less likely to murder, but it is by no means rare. Have there not been a few cases this year in Toronto where a woman killed his child(ren), and what about those two homeless women who killed that guy in middle of the street because he wouldn't give them change or something.

[Rue]

IChristian society is responsible for making women virtuous and non-violent, and now that that is being undone, there is a noticeable increase in overt violent behaviour perpetrated by girls/women.

Right Keng. Women are violent towards one another because they won't believe in your version of Christianity.

So now Keng the expert on Christianity, the new testament,the holocaust is now on expert on women's violence.

Got news for you Keng, all the above comment does is manifest your fear of women.

Pathetic.

[kengs333]

Right Keng. Women are violent towards one another because they won't believe in your version of Christianity.

So now Keng the expert on Christianity, the new testament,the holocaust is now on expert on women's violence.

Got news for you Keng, all the above comment does is manifest your fear of women.

Pathetic.

It's funny how whenever a person has an opinion that doesn't suit a left-wing agenda, that this opinion manifests because of some supposed "fear".

So the fact that women are increasingly violent and that immorality is on the rise really isn't the product of extensive reading, observation, and contemplation--it's just a knee-jerk reaction based on (unfounded) "fear".

Moreover, I'm not sure how simply holding an opinion on a subject somehow leads you to consider that I think of myself as an "expert" on any topic. I base my opinions on the findings of experts, but I read about a wide variety of topics and tend not to focus on any specific one to the point where I consider myself an expert.

Your personal attacks, constant sarcastic and mocking comments I think are starting to get a tad excessive and obessive. For your own sake, please learn how to moderate and control you behaviour better.

[cybercoma]

Wow. What a thread! Should we start another?

Christian father rapes infant daughter and puts video on internet for profit....

The father in THIS thread killed his daughter for not following their religious dogma. Your Christian father is not raping the infant because she refused to be baptized, otherwise you'd have a point.

[cybercoma]

She could easily have wound up dead - and if so - would this board be blaming the actions on their Hungarian Jewish heritage?????

If her father killed her for not following her Hungarian Jewish heritage, then hell yeah, I think it would very fair to assess their beliefs.

[cybercoma]

kengs, how are you going to MAKE women be more "virtuous"? Perhaps more men should slap their wives around when they step out of line? Does that sound like a good idea to you? Or how about when Christian daughters don't act as "virtuous' as you would like, their fathers could strangle them? Does that sound like a good idea to you too?

[ScottSA]

kengs, how are you going to MAKE women be more "virtuous"? Perhaps more men should slap their wives around when they step out of line? Does that sound like a good idea to you? Or how about when Christian daughters don't act as "virtuous' as you would like, their fathers could strangle them? Does that sound like a good idea to you too?

No one can make women be more virtuous, unless it is other women readopting virtue as a norm, and that won't happen until we as a society readopt some of the virtues we've lost. The trouble is that since the 60s we've been practising hedonism and pretending it's freedom, and one way or another we'll return to a stae of civilzation. One way is to allow the inroads of 7th century barbarians; my prefered way is to rediscover western Virtu ourselves.

[mikedavid00]

I know "what if's" are difficult but here goes:

What if your daughter was going out with the neighbourhood drug dealer? And she looked at you and said "f%#@(*& you dad! I am doing whatever I want when I want and there is nothing you can do to stop me!"

Would you feel "exasperated"?

Would you shrug your shoulders and walk away "oh well, she is right, she can do whatever she wants"?

If she walked home from school and every day you saw her she said f%#@(*& you dad. Would you feel like cuffing her upside the head? Of course you would! Would you do it? Perhaps, depends on how close to the end of your rope you were. What if you cuffed her a tad too hard and she died?

I know you wouldn't kill her on pupose... by the way, many women have been killed by their partners in "crimes of passion" in he heat of anger they lose control of themselves and go to far. Our laws make allowances for this, yet we are practically calling for the head of this father for killing his daughter in the "heat of the moment".

That was the sickest thing i've read on this forum beside guyser blaming this on stress from the Dad.

You will do and say anything the 'understand' and show 'compasion' to the murderer. Forget about the 16 year old girl who got burried today.

You should be ashamed of yourself!

[Carinthia]

If the father had cuffed his daughter with more force than he really intended and she ended up dead, I think manslaughter would apply. The fact that he strangled her would signal to me that he must have known that what he was doing would result in her death. There is more here than simply losing it. Parents who simply "lose it" on their rebellious teens, don't generally choose strangulation as the method to vent their anger. No matter how angry we get, most of us are aware of the damage we could inflict if we don't hold back, even during the moment of that anger.

If people choose to bring their children to a westernized nation, then they take the risk that their kids will naturally want to "be like everybody else". They should also be made aware, by example, that if they kill their kids, no matter what the provocation, they take the risk of being prosecuted to the full extent of the law, right along with the rest of us.

[kengs333]

kengs, how are you going to MAKE women be more "virtuous"? Perhaps more men should slap their wives around when they step out of line? Does that sound like a good idea to you? Or how about when Christian daughters don't act as "virtuous' as you would like, their fathers could strangle them? Does that sound like a good idea to you too?

Get a brain. Does that sound like a good idea to you too?

[Guest American Woman]

Good post, Carinthia.

It amazes me that it seems to escape some in this thread that one doesn't "accidently" put their hands around a child's neck and choke them. While one may accidently hit harder than intended, one doesn't put their hands around one's throat and choke them with any purpose other than cutting off their air supply. It's a murderous act in and of itself, while hitting is not. Furthermore, as she started losing consciousness, there is no way anyone could say he was 'accidently' choking her longer/harder than intended. He deliberately went on choking her even as the life drained out of her. A completely different situation from one swat ending up being 'hitting harder than intended.'

Furthermore, these same people seem to be ignoring the fact that this girl lived in fear of her father; that he had threatened to kill her previously. When one threatens to kill, and then does kill, the act goes beyond 'the heat of the moment.' If the father was so angry at his daughter that he was threatening to kill her, it was his duty as a father to get councelling or let her move out of the explosive environment. That people can "understand" his actions, implying that she too was partly 'at fault' for being "rebellious" (because she didn't want to be controlled by his religious beliefs), is difficult to understand. People seem to be going out of their way to "understand" his killing his daughter, even going to far as to say he'll likely be tried for manslaughter, proving that the Canadian government "understands" too.

The fact that they are pointing out that others murder their children too, therefore his religious beliefs had nothing to do with this spefic murder, is also difficult to understand. People get into fatal car accidents even when they aren't drinking, but that doesn't mean drinking wasn't a factor when alcohol was involved. One doesn't point out that fatal accidents occur anyway so people are just picking on drinkers by recognizing the fact that they were drunk. It doesn't mean we don't try to prevent drunk driving accidents just because other factors cause accidents too.

It appears assimilation into very different cultures is a problem. I've pointed out (including a link) that in one editorial the author recognizes that it's a problem in Europe, but denies it's a problem in Canada. No response to that. I've pointed out that honor killings are a problem in Europe (providing a link), no response to that. I've pointed out that honor killings and domestic violence are a big problem in Pakistan (including a link), where this father recently emigrated from, no response to that. Instead we keep getting 'excuses' and 'understanding' and accusations of being 'anti-Muslim' from those who refuse to see that in this particular case, the fact that the father was a devout Muslim is of significance-- and the fact that this type of behavior is accepted in Pakistan could very well have affected his mindset, and therefore his actions. Ironically, people who are completely ignoring/dismissing this are just the opposite side of the 'mikedavid' et al coin, and they just don't see it.

It's not wrong to recognize that religion was a factor in this murder. It's not wrong to state that in this particular case that religion was Islam. It's not wrong to recognize that honor killings are accepted in some segments of Muslim societies, and it's not wrong to question if this mindset could influence the actions of those who emigrate to very different cultures. What's 'wrong' is to dismiss all of this in an effort to be 'PC' and/or 'open minded,' and therefore totally and completely uncritical of any aspect of Islam including fundamentalist Muslims, even though they manage to be critical of other religions.

This beautiful young girl was apparently killed because she wanted to fit into the society/culture her parents moved her into. Maybe such parents are naive in their expectations and don't know the problems they are up against moving to such different cultures. Seems as if some counselling should be available, if not a requirement of the immigration process, but that suggestion has largely fallen on deaf ears too.

One last point people bring up. This father called the authorities to say he killed his daughter, so they are giving him credit for doing that instead of trying to hide the body and say she ran away. When Muslims kill with the 'honor killing' mindset, they don't hide it. They admit it. They think it was their right. At the very least, they put the 'fault' on the victim. So his calling the police doesn't in any way discount the possibility that the culture this father was raised in had an effect/influence on his actions.

Edited December 16, 2007 by American Woman

[cybercoma]

The trouble is that since the 60s we've been practising hedonism and pretending it's freedom...

I'd be interested in how you define hedonism and how society is confusing it for freedom. And, what exactly, does it take for a woman to be "virtuous"?

[cybercoma]

Get a brain. Does that sound like a good idea to you too?

I'm surprised you haven't been canned for trolling yet, since you continuously refuse to respond to replies that refute your posts with anything more than insults and deflection.

[Borg]

Kid is dead. Father and / or brother is / are guilty.

Excuses are for losers - try them - convict them on actions not philosophy and put them away. For a long, long time.

Borg

[Drea]

What nonsense. Some folk simply snap. IMO this is what happened here. I would wager this guy feels pretty awful right now, I don't think this is in any way an honour killing - it's a terrible accident which resulted from a situation which was out of control.

Anyway, carry on blaming the brown people - I'm outta here.

Thanks Buffy. I appreciate your understanding after all these folks jumped on me for not belieiving this is an exclusively muslim issue (indeed muslimness may have not played a role at all -- just a volitile dad who'd kid would not follow his rules)

The father DID call the police. Any one ever hear of this occuring when the killing is one of "honour"? When an "honour" killing is perpetrated, the body usually "disappears" and the family tries to cover up their crime. The father called the police himself and said he killed his daughter. Sounds like "passion" killing to me, not "honour" killing.

Some folks are frothing at the mouth that this BE an honour killing so they can feel righteous about themselves (as in "See everyone! MY people would NEVER do such a thing!").

This Canadian pro wrestler strangled his wife (maybe she refused to follow his rules).... and some here are saying people don't strangle in the heat of anger... they are wrong....Wrestler Slayings

Georgia law enforcement official close to the investigation had said Nancy had been strangled and Daniel smothered,

[Guest American Woman]

This Canadian pro wrestler strangled his wife (maybe she refused to follow his rules).... and some here are saying people don't strangle in the heat of anger... they are wrong....Wrestler Slayings

You seriously think he bound his wife before strangling her, killing his son the following day, and it was just a matter of him 'snapping in the heat of the moment??' You don't think that was premeditated? Please don't tell me you believe he didn't mean to kill them. That that wasn't his intention. Sounds as if the murders were very deliberate to me.

Note that he killed himself too.

When an "honour" killing is perpetrated, the body usually "disappears" and the family tries to cover up their crime.

I definitely would like a source to back that statement up! Sounds as if it's quite the opposite to me.

[Drea]

You seriously think he bound his wife before strangling her, killing his son the following day, and it was just a matter of him 'snapping in the heat of the moment??' You don't think that was premeditated? Please don't tell me you believe he didn't mean to kill them. That that wasn't his intention. Sounds as if the murders were very deliberate to me.

Please reread what I wrote. There is no reference in the paragraph about the wrestler that he accidentally strangled his wife. It was an example that people DO strangle. And do you not think he was in the "anger" of the moment when he strangled her? He was in a "roid rage" and felt so guilty that he killed his son and himself. If he had no guilt and thought he and his son would have a better life without the wife/mother, he would've tried to get away and live a heppy life with his son (one would think).

This is for you AW -- America made him do it. Poor bastard, if he would've stayed in Canada, he, his wife and child would all be alive. I blame America!

why did I type that?... because you keep picking on me and I want to get back at you that's all.... did it work?

I am not very good at being mean, sorry. You are so very much better at it than I am!

Now go back to frothing and telling yourself that no one in your perfect culture would do such a henious thing -- go ahead and froth away while you think only someone different from you (muslim) would do such a horrible thing.

Need a napkin to clean up all that froth?

Edited December 16, 2007 by Drea

[Guest American Woman]

Please reread what I wrote. There is no reference in the paragraph about the wrestler that he accidentally strangled his wife. It was an example that people DO strangle. And do you not think he was in the "anger" of the moment when he strangled her? He was in a "roid rage" and felt so guilty that he killed his son and himself. If he had no guilt and thought he and his son would have a better life without the wife/mother, he would've tried to get away and live a heppy life with his son (one would think).

Of course people do strangle; no one has denied that. But they do it intentionally. They don't 'accidently' strangle them. They premeditate it, just as this wrestler did. Of course anyone who kills is angry. People don't usually kill because they're happy and serene. That doesn't mean they 'snapped' and acted in 'the heat of the moment.' Angry people most definitely intentionally kill.

As for his being in a "roid rage," please provide a link to his autopsy proving that.

The World Wrestling Entertainment released a statement Tuesday evening scrutinizing media accounts the organization felt unfairly tied Benoit's alleged murder-suicide to "'roid rage," a short-tempered condition associated with steroid usage.

The physical findings announced by authorities indicate deliberation, not rage," the statement read, pointing out details released by police like long periods of time between each murder and the presence of a Bible next to each of the bodies. Link

This is for you AW -- America made him do it. Poor bastard, if he would've stayed in Canada, he, his wife and child would all be alive. I blame America!

why did I type that?... because you keep picking on me and I want to get back at you that's all.... did it work?

If your intention was to look like an idiot, yeah. It worked.

I am not very good at being mean, sorry. You are so very much better at it than I am!

Is there something wrong with you? My pointing out facts is "being mean" to you??

Now go back to frothing and telling yourself that no one in your perfect culture would do such a henious thing -- go ahead and froth away while you think ONLY someone DIFFERENT from ME (muslim) would do such a horrible thing.

Need a napkin to clean up all that froth?

Like I said earlier, I think you have some serious anger-management issues. This post speaks for iteself in that regard.

Edited December 16, 2007 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

...you think only someone different from you (muslim) would do such a horrible thing.

This is an outright lie. I think no such thing.

[Canuck E Stan]

Like I said earlier, I think you have some serious anger-management issues. This post speaks for itself in that regard.

I agree.

[Drea]

My hubby read an article in Maxim the other day... the husband (wrestler guy) apparently killed his wife in a rage -- according to the article. Then he killed his son (no longer raging but feeling guilty and doing what he thought was the right thing to do. He thought his son would be better off dead than living with no parents. Dillusional yes. Raging when he killed his son and then himself, no.

I grew up in the 70' s -- my aunt and uncle were heavy drinkers -- He choked her one time in a drunken rage. Almost killed her. I was looking after the kids and the three of us pulled him off of her. He would've killed her. Luckily he didn't kill any of us. (Back in the 70's when parents would "swing' (trade partners) there was alot of "drunken rage" going around). On a normal non-drunk day, he was the nicest guy in the world... but he "lost it" in drunken rage. If she would've died, he would've regreted it.

I used the wrestler as an example that choking is not necessarily premeditated.

See AW, I am learning how to be mean without being overt and getting banned. Kudos to me and thanks to you for teaching me so well!

Cheers!

[Guest American Woman]

"Benoit's body contained 10 times the normal level of testosterone, as well as amounts of the anti-anxiety drug Xanax and the painkiller hydrocodone, authorities said.

The testosterone, a synthetic version of the primary male sex hormone, is considered an anabolic steroid. The state's top medical examiner said it appeared to have been injected shortly before Benoit died.

Dr. Kris Sperry said there was no evidence of any other steroids in the wrestler's body, and nothing to show that steroids played a role in the death of Nancy and Daniel Benoit.

Sperry said there is no consensus that the use of testosterone can contribute to paranoia, depression and violent outbursts known as 'roid rage.'"

I repeat. The murders were premeditated.

"World Wrestling Entertainment attorney Jerry McDevitt has stated that 'they believe the facts of this crime do not support the hypothesis that 'roid rage' played a role in the murders.' [...] Wadler who currently serves on the World Anti-Doping Agency's Prohibited List and Methods Committee and has served on its Health, Medicine, and Research Committee agreed stating that 'that was a premeditated act and that's not rage'. Link

As for the speculation as to why he killed his son and himself, there was no suicide note, so any speculation is just that-- speculation. Which means absolutely nothing.

[Drea]

This is an outright lie. I think no such thing.

Sorry, I mean "general" you, not "specific" you.

Here I will reword it for you...

one thinks only someone different from one (muslim) would do such a horrible thing

Hey I was just discussing the topic. I am not the one who started the insults.

Here they are -- these are responses to my posts:

Scottsa:

And I suppose women who abuse men should get the best free counselling available, right?

AW:

You are sadly unaware of reality if you truly believe women don't abuse men too. I suggest you take steps to educate yourself.

AW:

Do you say this every time someone is murdered? For example, when a man kills a woman, do you say (since 'men are from venus and women are from mars' and therefore sometimes frustrate the other to the point where they 'can drive the other sex all the way aroung the bend') that 'a woman can drive a man to many things'

AW:

You aren't even able to discuss this without losing control. Seems to me you may have some anger control issues, which explains your comment about teens 'driving you all around the bend' in response to a father murdering his daughter.

I think this was a response to part of a sentence I put in all caps... for emphasis. My bad I should've used italics so as to not "upset" one. That's also when I started by "mean education" and began learning how to subtley be a nasty. Thanks for the lessons!

Mike David chimes in:

That was the sickest thing i've read on this forum beside guyser blaming this on stress from the Dad.

You will do and say anything the 'understand' and show 'compasion' to the murderer. Forget about the 16 year old girl who got burried today. You should be ashamed of yourself!

I am an understanding human being. I say I understand (not condone) and you folks, specifically you AW, jump all over me for understanding. Good thing there are some of us on this planet who don't see in black and white.

I hope the father spends a good many years in prison. He took a life.

But it was not an honour killing, nor was it done only because they were muslim. He flew into a rage because she would not listen. And Muslims are not the only people who fly into rages when their teens disobey. That's all I have been trying to say this whole thread through.

Cheers!

Edited December 16, 2007 by Drea