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Hardner said:

America has shifted to the right fiscally since Reagan and to the left socially.

What are you talking about?

America is not left socially. American elites are left socially, per the usual suspects in the ACLU and in the Supreme Court. Those 2 power elites are re-shaping America in their own demented image by undermining the constitution.Those 2 groups have less in common with average Americans than the Man in the Moon does.

America has one of the highest rates of religious affiliation. Recent polls show that the majority of Americans do not support same sex marriage, want illegal immigrants deported, do not support affirmative action. Does that sound "left" to you?

As for Americans being fiscal conservatives, what a laugh. George Bush is spending like a drunken sailor and no one says "boo."

Get your eyes checked. Your vision is impaired.

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QUOTE 

America has shifted to the right fiscally since Reagan and to the left socially.

What are you talking about?

America is not left socially.

Read what I wrote. I wrote that America has SHIFTED to the left socially, not that America is LEFT socially.

Do you understand the difference ?

What is the support for gay rights, living together, etc. etc. now versus 1980 ?

American elites are left socially, per the usual suspects in the ACLU and in the Supreme Court. Those 2 power elites are re-shaping America in their own demented image by undermining the constitution.Those 2 groups have less in common with average Americans than the Man in the Moon does.

America has one of the highest rates of religious affiliation. Recent polls show that the majority of Americans do not support same sex marriage, want illegal immigrants deported, do not support affirmative action. Does that sound "left" to you?

As for Americans being fiscal conservatives, what a laugh. George Bush is spending like a drunken sailor and no one says "boo."

Get your eyes checked. Your vision is impaired.

The rest of your post here hinges on your misunderstanding of my statement that there has been a shift to the left socially since 1980.

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I would submit that the left has shifted further to the left. That includes youth unfortunately.

As for your depiction of the "mainstream" media, i.e. NYT, LAT, Networks, etc., as centrist, that assertion is utterly laughable. The evidence is out there in plain sight. Run a a Lexus Nexus search, read either of Bernard Goldberg's recent books, for Chirst sake man, it's undeniable fact.

I suspect your claim of a centrist NYT is about as much based in fact as your declaration that Limbaugh is a liar.

Please don't make us prove you wrong. I suppose Jason Blair is not at all represenative of the psychosis infecting that publication?

How about a quota system ?

It's pathetic that it would have to come to that, isn't it?

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I suppose Jason Blair is not at all represenative of the psychosis infecting that publication?

Oh yeah. That was pretty embarassing. But yes, I will stick to my guns that CNN, NYT and the television news networks are pretty much in the centre.

The NYT supported the Vietnam war, endorsed Eisenhower so they can't be all bad right ?

And even if a paper leans one way or the other editorially, they can strive for objectivity in the news pages. The Globe and Mail does a good job of this, but maybe you'll say they're a leftist paper.

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Canadian journalists say Globe and Mail is very left leaning. Read the survey published in PubZone which I posted under the Cdn. ownership of media thread. Just because the Globe and Mail is owned by a billionaire does not mean its bias will not be left. Ever hear of the phrase "noblesse oblige?"

As for the NYT, since the new owner has taken over the NYT , its leanings are very left indeed. Arthur [Pinch]Sulzberger, Jr. is the new man at the top. Arthur is the grandson of the man who built up the NYT's fine reputation in 1950's,whereas Pinch is tearing it down. In fact, an attorney/author by the name of Bob Kohn just published a non-fiction book entitled "Journalistic Fraud: How The New York Times Distorts the News and Why It Can No Longer Be Trusted". Pretty straight forward, I would say.

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Canadian journalists say Globe and Mail is very left leaning. Read the survey published in PubZone which I posted under the Cdn. ownership of media thread. Just because the Globe and Mail is owned by a billionaire does not mean its bias will not be left. Ever hear of the phrase "noblesse oblige?"

You misunderstood the use of the word 'liberal'. The Globe and Mail was a big Free Trade booster and has generally supported the PCs. Former editor Bill Thorsell was a big fan of Mulroney's.

As for the NYT, since the new owner has taken over the NYT , its leanings are very left indeed. Arthur [Pinch]Sulzberger, Jr. is the new man at the top. Arthur is the grandson of the man who built up the NYT's fine reputation in 1950's,whereas Pinch is tearing it down. In fact, an attorney/author by the name of Bob Kohn just published a non-fiction book entitled "Journalistic Fraud: How The New York Times Distorts the News and Why It Can No Longer Be Trusted". Pretty straight forward, I would say.

And Chomsky (a true leftist) has written extensively on how the NYT supports "American agression" abroad.

The Democrats are left of the Republicans but they are not a leftist party in the grand scheme of things. Are the Democrats pushing for universal health care now ? I haven't heard that. But the Canadian Alliance does support universal health care.

If you compare the US to Europe on social welfare spending, tax rates, health care, employment legislation, subsidies and so forth you'll find that Europe is much to the left of the US. Even centrist European parties are left of the Democrats.

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Even centrist European parties are left of the Democrats.

Hogwash. The Democrats have been attempting for years to import European socialism to the United States. Most notably with "Hillary Care" back during Clinton's first term. The American people have no desire to yield control of their freedoms to such a large and inefficient bureaucracy, and hence the proposal fell flat on it's face.

And Chomsky (a true leftist) has written extensively on how the NYT supports "American agression" abroad.

Chomsky, the lunatic, claims conservative bias in the media. uh huh. Maybe he should just stick to linguistics.

The Democrats are left of the Republicans but they are not a leftist party in the grand scheme of things.

You suffer from the same hallucination as Rather, Jennings, and the rest: you see your views as centrist. Michael Hardner, you are a leftist. Noam Chomsky is a communist (althought he refers to himself as an anarchist).

Polls show that 85%-90% of mainstream journalist vote Democrat. You don't think that effects their objectivity in any significant way?

And what about Iraq, do you think the NYT supported that war as well?

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QUOTE 

Even centrist European parties are left of the Democrats. 

Hogwash. The Democrats have been attempting for years to import European socialism to the United States. Most notably with "Hillary Care" back during Clinton's first term. The American people have no desire to yield control of their freedoms to such a large and inefficient bureaucracy, and hence the proposal fell flat on it's face.

I stated that the Dems are right of the European centrist partiest and you countered by saying that the Dems tried to introduce health care and failed.

That doesn't really refute my point.

Are they still proposing universal heath care ? How about European style tax rates ? Cradle to grave social benefits ? Even the right of centre European parties support a lot of these programmes.

QUOTE 

And Chomsky (a true leftist) has written extensively on how the NYT supports "American agression" abroad. 

Chomsky, the lunatic, claims conservative bias in the media. uh huh. Maybe he should just stick to linguistics.

My point is that leftists claim that the NYT and CNN are right wing. Right wingers claim that such institutions are left wing. Average it out.

You suffer from the same hallucination as Rather, Jennings, and the rest: you see your views as centrist. Michael Hardner, you are a leftist. Noam Chomsky is a communist (althought he refers to himself as an anarchist).

Isn't a Communist more of a leftist than me ? I'd say I'm centre-left. I support free enterprise for one thing. Real leftists (and even centre-leftists in the recent past) support nationalization of many industries and regulation.

What is it with the identity crisis of some right-wing posters ? Aren't you right-wing ? Are you ashamed of it ? If you are right wing, then who is in the centre ? If you aren't then who is right wing ?

Polls show that 85%-90% of mainstream journalist vote Democrat. You don't think that effects their objectivity in any significant way?

First of all, show me a source on that. It seems high to me. I think it does affect their objectivity, but I respect any journalist who tries to be as objective as possible.

Bob Woodward, for example, was a Republican who helped bring down the Nixon administration.

And what about Iraq, do you think the NYT supported that war as well?

I don't know. But they have been shown to turn a blind eye to friends of the US government such as Indonesia in the past. The left chalked that one up to a conspiracy.

Well, I don't believe in conspiracies of the right or the left. If everyone does their job properly, then the truth will eventually come out. When people start assuming that there are conspiracies afoot they lose faith in their institutions and that eventually leads to chaos.

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Hardner said:

You misunderstood the use of the word 'liberal'. The Globe and Mail was a big Free Trade booster and has generally supported the PCs. Former editor Bill Thorsell was a big fan of Mulroney's.

Ms. Chiason mis-used the term "liberal" in her summary. But your interpretation of her mis-use is just as inappropriate. See my response to you in the Cdn. discussion thread about media.

Bill Thorsell WAS editor and chief from 1989 to 1999.

Using support of Free Trade as an example of a Tory partisanship is not a great example. My mother-in-law, sweet but demented in her political beliefs, is a staunch Liberal and she has been active in the LPOC for years. However, she is a big fan of Free Trade to this day.

The Thomson family sold a good percentage of its ownership stake in G&M and other assets to Bell Globalmedia. Ivan Fecan is President and CEO of Bell Globalmedia. Fecan used to be head of CBC TV in the 1990's. Now that fact makes it very likely that Fecan is a left winger through and through otherwise he could not make it to the top of CBC.

That Chomsky who's a radical anarchist thinks the NYT is not left enough hardly supports your argument. Chomsky would not identify NYT as "left" unless it pursued a Pravda-like posture in news coverage. Get real.

Of course the Democrats support universal health care. Righturnonred addressed that matter well.

As for Woodward being Republican. Where did you read that?

As for studies showing how journalists vote:

Bernard Goldberg’s best seller, Bias: A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News, simply reconfirms what was well documented decades earlier. Every poll of journalists in every presidential election since 1968 has shown the overwhelming majority of journalists voted by huge margins for Democrats. In 1972 and 1984, mainstream journalists were five times as likely to vote Democrat as the average American.

Also,

Slate does a poll Nov.13/00.

Give credit to Michael Kinsley and his staff at the liberal Web site Slate.com. The day before the election, almost the entire staff declared which presidential candidate they would be voting for and why. Unsurprisingly, the vast majority (including 12 of 13 top editors) voted for Al Gore. ..Freedom Forum survey [showed]that 89 percent of Washington reporters and editors voted for Bill Clinton in 1992...
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Ms. Chiason mis-used the term "liberal" in her summary. But your interpretation of her mis-use is just as inappropriate. See my response to you in the Cdn. discussion thread about media.

No. The word was used correctly. I suspect you haven't seen it used that way before. You need a more liberal interpretation of 'liberal'. Ha ha. etc.

Bill Thorsell WAS editor and chief from 1989 to 1999.

Using support of Free Trade as an example of a Tory partisanship is not a great example. My mother-in-law, sweet but demented in her political beliefs, is a staunch Liberal and she has been active in the LPOC for years. However, she is a big fan of Free Trade to this day.

Ok. How about support of PC candidates for Prime Minister ?

The Thomson family sold a good percentage of its ownership stake in G&M and other assets to Bell Globalmedia. Ivan Fecan is President and CEO of Bell Globalmedia. Fecan used to be head of CBC TV in the 1990's. Now that fact makes it very likely that Fecan is a left winger through and through otherwise he could not make it to the top of CBC.

You're right but for the wrong reasons. I already posted in another thread an article from Bob McDonald that claims that the G&M supported Chretien because they needed to cosy up to the CRTC.

This illustrates the dangerous results of media convergence in a heavily regulated market.

You can't say it's "very likely" that Fecan is a left-winger because he works for the CBC any more than I can say it's "very likely" that a banker or an Albertan is a right-winger. It may be generally true, but you don't know that and it's faulty to base your argument that way.

That Chomsky who's a radical anarchist thinks the NYT is not left enough hardly supports your argument. Chomsky would not identify NYT as "left" unless it pursued a Pravda-like posture in news coverage. Get real.

So how are you better than him for saying the NYT is "left" ? In the same way, you wouldn't say the NYT was "right" until it started acting like the Washington Times. You're mirror images of each other.

It's centrist.

Of course the Democrats support universal health care. Righturnonred addressed that matter well.

As for Woodward being Republican. Where did you read that?

Rent "All the Presidents Men", for one. Woodward was a Republican investigating a Republican president because it was his job to do so.

I hate the fact that conservatives and liberals on these and other forums refuse to find any fault with their parties. Such a stance is for party hacks, MPs, etc. because it is necessary for them keep a common front. But we are individuals here ! :angry:

Objectivity is an important part of being a journalist, and a fair person I think. No one can be 100% objective, it's true, but it's certainly possible for someone to give both sides a fair shake.

As for studies showing how journalists vote:

QUOTE 

Bernard Goldberg’s best seller, Bias: A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News, simply reconfirms what was well documented decades earlier. Every poll of journalists in every presidential election since 1968 has shown the overwhelming majority of journalists voted by huge margins for Democrats. In 1972 and 1984, mainstream journalists were five times as likely to vote Democrat as the average American.

Also,

Slate does a poll Nov.13/00.

QUOTE 

Give credit to Michael Kinsley and his staff at the liberal Web site Slate.com. The day before the election, almost the entire staff declared which presidential candidate they would be voting for and why. Unsurprisingly, the vast majority (including 12 of 13 top editors) voted for Al Gore. ..Freedom Forum survey [showed]that 89 percent of Washington reporters and editors voted for Bill Clinton in 1992...

Well, I wouldn't call Slate.com anything near objective. It's left. Same goes for Salon.com and many websites out there.

But if we don't have ANY journals attempting to be objective then we'll have the Balkanization of our news which is a dangerous thing.

Our political process is based upon dialogue and compromise. Demagoguery and absolutes belong in religion. I personally try to be as open-minded as possible and to focus on my own principles rather than a "party line".

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I stated that the Dems are right of the European centrist partiest and you countered by saying that the Dems tried to introduce health care and failed.

I'm not so sure that's true, that the Dems are right of European centrist. Just because the same liberal programs enacted in Europe were rejected by the American people here doesn't mean the Dems are any less left.

Dems continue to this day to pursue socialized givaway programs in more inconspicuous forms, as any effort by them to pass universal heathcare in a broad based, all inclusive capacity would undoubtably fail.

Are they still proposing universal heath care ? How about European style tax rates ? Cradle to grave social benefits ?

You have just stated three primary long lerm domestic goals of the Democratic party. None of them will fly with the American people just yet, but don't count on the Dems giving up anytime soon.

My point is that leftists claim that the NYT and CNN are right wing. Right wingers claim that such institutions are left wing. Average it out.

Leftists don't claim this, Noam Chomsky claims this. And anyways, you can't just average it out, it either is or it isn't, and the overwhelming volume of evidence points to substantial liberal bias in "mainstream" media.

Isn't a Communist more of a leftist than me ?

Yes, that was my point.

Hardner = leftist, Chomsky = communist; NOT

Hardner = centrist, Chomsky = leftist.

My point is that, IMO, you imagine yourself a centrist in order to gain the apperance of objectivity, but you're not. You're firmly on the left, from what I can tell.

Tell me, what political positions do you hold that you think qualify you for the "centrist" modifier?

Personaly, I don't think there is much middle ground. A person's moral, ethical, and social configuration typically causes them to gravitate to one direction or the other on most politcal and social issues.

What is it with the identity crisis of some right-wing posters ? Aren't you right-wing ? Are you ashamed of it ? If you are right wing, then who is in the centre ? If you aren't then who is right wing ?

I do not, nor does any other conservative on this forum, claim to be anything other than that. For me to arbitrarily

assume a centrist label would be to insult the intelligence of others on this forum.

It's centrist.

Most on the left are completely numb to media bias.

Those who are not discriminated against and, in fact, those who discriminate against others often deny discrimination exists at all. You simply cannot understand media bias until, as a conservative, you're subjected to it.

you wouldn't say the NYT was "right" until it started acting like the Washington Times.

Wait a mintue, the Washington Times is "right"? I thought it was centrist. hehe

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My point is that, IMO, you imagine yourself a centrist in order to gain the apperance of objectivity, but you're not. You're firmly on the left, from what I can tell.

Objectivity is independent of political leanings. You can be far-left, far-right and still give everyone a fair shake.

If you think only centrists can be objective, then who do you find objective ?

Tell me, what political positions do you hold that you think qualify you for the "centrist" modifier?

I support globalized trade, and free enterprise in general. I don't support unworkable social programs that don't recognize reality.

But I'm centre-left as I said. Real leftists have accused me of having a "Tory heart" on other boards.

Personaly, I don't think there is much middle ground. A person's moral, ethical, and social configuration typically causes them to gravitate to one direction or the other on most politcal and social issues.

Ethically, no. Ethics have little if anything to do with political leanings. I know religious people of every political stripe. There are immoral greedy business people who are right-wing and immoral lazy burdens on society that are left-wing.

I do not, nor does any other conservative on this forum, claim to be anything other than that. For me to arbitrarily assume a centrist label would be to insult the intelligence of others on this forum.

Ok. Then what's in the centre ?

Most on the left are completely numb to media bias.

Those who are not discriminated against and, in fact, those who discriminate against others often deny discrimination exists at all. You simply cannot understand media bias until, as a conservative, you're subjected to it.

I disagree. This is a akin to feminist arguments that men should have nothing to say in the abortion debate.

I'm against media bias, but there's a difference between intentional bias and the bias that seeps in unintentionally.

The former kind is pernicious as it involves willfull misleading, but it's also easier to detect.

The second kind is more benign, but much harder to ferret out. If you (or I) had to cover some kind of Communist event as journalists we wouldn't be able to give them a fair shake (in their eyes) if we wanted to because we're biased against Communism.

I concur that both types of bias exist.

Wait a mintue, the Washington Times is "right"? I thought it was centrist. hehe

Oh. Ok. Ha ha ha ha.

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Objectivity is independent of political leanings. You can be far-left, far-right and still give everyone a fair shake.

This may be true in some limited fashion but for the most part, those on both the left and the right possess such strong convictions that no one is really capable of remaining totally objective. I think this is key, particularly when talking about objectivity in the media. There are very few individuals in the media, other than Matt Drudge for instance who routinely slams both sides, that are capable of acting independantly of thier own politcal beliefs. This is why having a debate or dialogue format in news media is so important, so people are given the chance to evaluate different perspectives on their own.

I don't believe in conspiracies of the right or the left

There is no organized left-wing conspiracy at work to control media in the US. It is much more subtle than that. It is a case of individual journalists, the vast majority of who are liberals, that consciously and subconsciously filter news converage accroding to their own liberal views.

A similar phenonenon exists in academia in which liberal professors vastly prevail. Lefty profs teach students the "truth" according what they believe it to be, regardless of reality. Rarely did I ever witness, in my experience, a professor present both sides of an issue from an adequately objective standpoint, if at all.

There no more exists a vast left-wing conspiracy as there does a vast right-wing conspiracy, as repeatedly claimed by Hillary Clinton.

You simply give people too much credit for being able to act independently of personal beliefs.

I support globalized trade, and free enterprise in general.

ehhh, that doesn't work for me. All that proves is that you're not a radical or a communist. These items are common sense to 95% of the population.

I don't support unworkable social programs that don't recognize reality.

What exactly are you refering to here?

I disagree. This is a akin to feminist arguments that men should have nothing to say in the abortion debate.

I don't see the parallel. My arguement is actually more akin to preceptions of racism. Racism is obviously much more real to those who are directly subjected to it.

The second kind is more benign

I agree that there are two forms of bias but I disagree that one is any less harmful than the other, nor do I believe that one is any more difficult to detect than the other.

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I don't see the parallel. My arguement is actually more akin to preceptions of racism. Racism is obviously much more real to those who are directly subjected to it.

Ok. Well, that's what this forum is for. Continue to point this out please. Find news articles from cbc.ca globeandmail.ca etc. that support you point and we'll check it out...

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The winning ad has been chosen. It's a great one too!

It shows a kid changing a tire on a car, a kid ringing in merchandise in a grocery store, a kid sweeping a floor. All in work clothes. At the end of it it simply says "Who is going to pay for Bush's policies?"

Love it! I like good, imaginitve stuff. This is clever, instead of targeting the idiots, this one targets the thinking conservative. Hit them in the wallet. Unfortunately, most people see through this as evidenced by the upswing in the economy.

Move on wants it to be aired at the Superbowl.. The Superbowl is checking it to see if it conforms to 'good taste.' LOL, not enough beer drinking or bikinis clad babes might make it unworthy.

Good ad though. I salute it's origionality and the giving up of the 'Oil for blood' rhetoric.

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