Rice admits U.S. handling of Arar case 'imperfect'

[bush_cheney2004]

I guess we can agree this is one case where your government should have second guessed our government.

Not going to happen only one-year after 9/11, with accusations about intelligence shortfalls and failures in the system enabling attacks. As AW has described, Arar was rejected by Canada leaving only one course of action per immigration law (i.e. deportation). Collective Canadian guilt pangs do not a case make in the US of A.

Is Arar suing Syria and Jordan as well?

[capricorn]

Collective Canadian guilt pangs do not a case make in the US of A.

Is Arar suing Syria and Jordan as well?

Canadians salved their consciences to the tune of 10 million dollars. I venture to guess most Canadians hope they have heard the last of the Arar affair. From what I have read the reaction to the Canadian government's call for the US to remove Arar from the no fly list the prevailing attitude of the majority of Canadian is "Who cares." Mind you, the opposition parties here will bleed this case for all it's worth in order to discredit Harper.

As for suing Syria or Jordan, fat chance. Cash cows they are not.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canadians salved their consciences to the tune of 10 million dollars. I venture to guess most Canadians hope they have heard the last of the Arar affair. From what I have read the reaction to the Canadian government's call for the US to remove Arar from the no fly list the prevailing attitude of the majority of Canadian is "Who cares." Mind you, the opposition parties here will bleed this case for all it's worth in order to discredit Harper.

Methinks you have identified the engine and fuel for this matter....on both sides of the border. Arar is a gift wrapped poster for the political opposition.

[Leafless]

Hey, AW, what's wrong with collecting a little booty if you're successful in making a point in principle? It's done every day in both our countries.

What point in principle?

A point that risked Canada's national security (or possibly even did) over a current citizen of Syria, a terrorist harbouring country by a case that was still under investigation by Canadian authorities but was interrupted by the U.S. deporting Arar to Syria.

LOL- Now we have the Canadian government trying to drag the U.S. down to the same level of Canada's incompetent security (by an inquiry that should never have been allowed initially) and is begging the U.S. to remove Arar from the security list preventing him from flying in the U.S.

Arar it seems, is out to prove to the U.S. 'you can't push me around'.

http://www.canadaeast.com/front/article/108897

[Higgly]

Questioning my citizenship? I am a citizen of your worst nightmare, except it isn't a dream.

Isn't there an age limit for posting here? Don't you have to be at least 16 or have a note from your mommy?

If the US has such a good case, why all the bellyaching? Just what exactly are you all so afraid of? Aren't you getting a little ahead of yourselves? Taking him off the no-fly list is not going to make a case any stronger or weaker, since the US can point to faulty information from Canada. The apology by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons in itself would be a good starting point.

Arar trying to push people around? The guy is just trying to correct an injustice. Apparently innocent until proven guilty means nothing to you lot. I hear the loud clucking of a chicken little brigade. Pathetic.

Edited October 26, 2007 by Higgly

[Guest trex]

The guy is just trying to correct an injustice. Apparently innocent until proven guilty means nothing to you lot. I hear the loud clucking of a chicken little brigade. Pathetic.

I say he is just as entitled to stick it to the system now that it was done to him. Since the state upholds the laws with impunity we should hold the state accountable to its actions, with impunity.

[daniel]

...The reason now is totally political. If Arar were to arrive in the United States, he would be recognized by the media and all of Bush's opponents as a symbol representing the worst mistakes of Bush's uncostitutional policies.

No formal apologies given, no removal from no-fly list: My argument still stands.

[Fortunata]

Maybe it's too little too late. The U.S. initially wanted to deport Arar back to Canada rather than Syria under the condition that he be tried there, and Canada refused.

Not exactly. The US did offer to deport Arar back to Canada providing that Canada incarcerate and charge him. The problem was that the RCMP had nothing on which to lay charges and relayed this to US officials so off he went to Syria. If the RCMP said there was nothing, it could have prompted US to have a second look. In my opinion they weren't into trying to ensure the right thing was done to the right person, it was more doing it because they could.

Edited October 26, 2007 by Fortunata

[capricorn]

What point in principle?

---

LOL- Now we have the Canadian government trying to drag the U.S. down to the same level of Canada's incompetent security (by an inquiry that should never have been allowed initially) and is begging the U.S. to remove Arar from the security list preventing him from flying in the U.S.

Point in principle was a poor choice of words. I was joking with AW.

I find our government's diplomatic requests somewhat amusing yet necessary. Our government can beg all it wants. As a sovereign country, the US has every right to decide who can and who cannot enter their country. I don't know their motives nor do I want to know and I certainly don't lose sleep over it.

Edited October 26, 2007 by capricorn

[bush_cheney2004]

Prolly doesn't matter much either way, as Arar will be watched for years, particularly since he now has motive and means to be the bogeyman he never was.

[mikedavid00]

Prolly doesn't matter much either way, as Arar will be watched for years, particularly since he now has motive and means to be the bogeyman he never was.

People forget when Arar was in his home country Syria (which he is a citizen) he turned tail and ratted out his friends in the 'Islamic Brotherhood' which is a terrorist organization that he had ties to. He admitted this on a CTV interview and is online in the transcript. The Syrian officials said he was being co-operative.

People forget that on 6 different visits by the officials he said he was being treated well. It's believed he was told to say he was tortured so that he could get out sooner. The documented that there were NO SIGNS of torture or mentally visible signs of torture.

People forget that the RCMP was following him BEFORE 9-11 and had survelance on him.

People forget how Syria knew through their OWN intelligence who him and his friends in Ottawa were and connections they had to these terrorist organizations.

The life in Syria is laid back and Tuscan. There are Christian populations there, alchohol for sale, and is not an extremist country like Sudan, Afghanistan, or Pakistan. Everyone there talks about poltics.

Here is a pic of life in Syria on any given night:

http://p.vtourist.com/1938403-Nightlife-Damascus.jpg

Syrians are not peasants in the world of Islam like Samoli's or Pakistanis are, they are very fair skin, speak Arabic, and are amogst the top of the Islamic cast system. They aren't the type to roll over.

They will screw you, lie, and make you pay if they feel they can get a chance and get their hands on some money. That's all Arar is doing. If he was a Pakistani, he would be playing poltics and only asking for an 'appology' and would have his Pakistani leaders speaking for him for political gain.

Arar is not that type or breed in the Islamic world. Neither are the Iranians.

They will lie, cheat, steal and come after you for riches (IMO). They aren't dumb.

[Higgly]

People forget when Arar was in his home country Syria (which he is a citizen) he turned tail and ratted out his friends in the 'Islamic Brotherhood' which is a terrorist organization that he had ties to. He admitted this on a CTV interview and is online in the transcript. The Syrian officials said he was being co-operative.

People forget that on 6 different visits by the officials he said he was being treated well. It's believed he was told to say he was tortured so that he could get out sooner. The documented that there were NO SIGNS of torture or mentally visible signs of torture.

Well here's how that works. "Your officials are coming. If you say you are being tortured, we will kill you."

People forget that the RCMP was following him BEFORE 9-11 and had survelance on him.

Right. So why didn't they arrest him? Not guilty maybe? He was also a citizen of Canada. That is what matters here.

People forget how Syria knew through their OWN intelligence who him and his friends in Ottawa were and connections they had to these terrorist organizations.

Yeah right. There are Syrian agents all over Canada. They are swarming like flies. Have you seen the Syrian Embassy? Who do you think they got that intelligence from? Can you really be that naive?

Here is a pic of life in Syria on any given night:

http://p.vtourist.com/1938403-Nightlife-Damascus.jpg

Yeah right. Here's a picture of my girlfriend on any given afternoon.

Syrians are not peasants in the world of Islam like Samoli's or Pakistanis are, they are very fair skin, speak Arabic, and are amogst the top of the Islamic cast system. They aren't the type to roll over.

Samoli's ? Is that like in "Holy Samoli"?

They aren't dumb.

Fortunately, neither are we.

Edited October 26, 2007 by Higgly

[guyser]

Yeah right. Here's a picture of my girlfriend on any given afternoon.

Hey thats my girlfriend. Cheating two timing <post editted for bad language> , I knew she was no good.

[Higgly]

Hey thats my girlfriend. Cheating two timing <post editted for bad language> , I knew she was no good.

Bitch! Boy is she ever gonna get it when she gets over here for her booty call!

[daniel]

Bitch! Boy is she ever gonna get it when she gets over here for her booty call!

Are we still talking about Condi Rice?

[Guest American Woman]

Maybe it's too little too late. The U.S. initially wanted to deport Arar back to Canada rather than Syria under the condition that he be tried there, and Canada refused.

Not exactly. The US did offer to deport Arar back to Canada providing that Canada incarcerate and charge him. The problem was that the RCMP had nothing on which to lay charges and relayed this to US officials so off he went to Syria. If the RCMP said there was nothing, it could have prompted US to have a second look. In my opinion they weren't into trying to ensure the right thing was done to the right person, it was more doing it because they could.

Canada refused our terms, but how could they have nothing to charge him with if they had information saying he was a terrorist threat? They could have tried him on that information, and after he was found innocent, that would have cleared him of the charges of being a possible terrorist threat and it would have saved him from being deported to Syria. I can't understand why Canada would think it was better not to try him for whatever the RCMP had put him on the terrorist threat list for than to have him deported to Syria.

I'm wondering where you are getting that from, though; where you are getting that the RCMP said there was "nothing" on Arar at the time. Seems to me it took years to come to that conclusion. If there was nothing to charge him with, why was there an inquiry after his deportation to clear his name?

Also, if Canada had nothing to lay charges on, why was there so much interest in the information Syria was gathering as a result of their interrogation rather than an all out attempt to get an innocent man returned to Canada?

Edited October 27, 2007 by American Woman

[Moxie]

I hold the Canadian Government responsible for what happened to him, it was the RCMP that screwed up. They do it quite often in murder trials, so why the urge to blame the US? I have no doubt he was tortured, none. I also don't believe he'll win a lawsuit against the US, he's hoping the negative press will force Bush to settle out of court. He's gotten greedy, ten million isn't enough to live in Hippyville BC these days? I had compassion for him, but now he appears to another greedy man screaming VICTIM victim daily. I'm not interested in his story anymore, if he had taken the settlement and moved on with his life I'd feel differently.

[Peter F]

Canada refused our terms, but how could they have nothing to charge him with if they had information saying he was a terrorist threat?

Canada did not have information saying he was a terrorist threat. They only had information saying he had been in contact with a third party who they suspected could be a terrorist threat.

They could have tried him on that information, and after he was found innocent, that would have cleared him of the charges of being a possible terrorist threat and it would have saved him from being deported to Syria. I can't understand why Canada would think it was better not to try him for whatever the RCMP had put him on the terrorist threat list for than to have him deported to Syria.

The Canadian government could never have brought him to trial on the information they had. They had nothing other than he was seen in the company of a third party. Other than that the RCMP and/or CSIS had absolutely zilch. Such 'evidence' would never have survived a hearing to determine if available evidence supported a trial. Thus the conundrum Arar found himself in due to the incompetence of the Canadian security establishment; There was no evidence to support any trial yet he was still considered a possible terrorist with only the flimsiest of circumstantial information to support such a designation.

To be saved from deportation to Syria the US authorities required the Canadians to arrest him when they had nothing to arrest him for. failing that then the US would deport him to Syria.

Catch 22 for an innocent man brought about by beurocratic incompetence.

I'm wondering where you are getting that from, though; where you are getting that the RCMP said there was "nothing" on Arar at the time. Seems to me it took years to come to that conclusion. If there was nothing to charge him with, why was there an inquiry after his deportation to clear his name?

There was nothing on Arar at the time they passed information to the US authorities. But the officers running the show didn't tell the Americans that. Only that Arar was a suspect. Not that Arar was really not a suspect but only someone who had been seen in company with someone who actuallly was an actual suspect. That nuance wasn't passed on.

It took years to come out because the RCMP, after Arar's family and friends started pestering the government, chose to cover up the mistake they had made by fabricating a bullshit story about how Arar was indeed suspected of terrorist links and how they'd love to show the evidence they had but, y'know, need for secrecy and all that. Meanwhile they hoped that some sort of evidence would crop up to indeed implicate Arar. None did and eventually the RCMP Commissioner had to admit such and resigned.

Also, if Canada had nothing to lay charges on, why was there so much interest in the information Syria was gathering as a result of their interrogation rather than an all out attempt to get an innocent man returned to Canada?

More bullshit from the government beurocrats. The Syrians were getting nothing whatsoever, but in order to mask the beurocratic fuckups the excuse was that Arar was giving the Syrians usefull information so as to help the RCMP cover up thier mistake, and to help the government of the day cover up the fact that they had done absolutely nothing to help a wrongly accused man.

It was cover-your-ass from begining to end. Eventually, thankfully, the parliamentarians managed to root out the stink in the beurocracy. So the enquiry eventually took place and all the facts came out.

Arar had suffered much because of the failures of the Security establishment. Oh, well, mistakes happen...especially in beurocracys. But the real failure of the system was a stubborn refusal to admit that mistakes had been made and even the attempt by low and high level RCMP officers and CSIS officers and Foriegn Affairs officials to cover up the mistakes of thier underlings.

Arar deserve's every dime he got and then some. Who know's what happened to all the egotistical turkeys that brought all this on. Probably a letter of reprimand. The lot of them should be sacked.

[Leafless]

Arar deserve's every dime he got and then some. Who know's what happened to all the egotistical turkeys that brought all this on. Probably a letter of reprimand. The lot of them should be sacked.

Give me a break.

Arar's problems were created by his own hand by remaining a citizen of terrorist country Syria.

The man is a fool.

Obviously if his love for Syria is so great then perhaps he should have migrated back with those morons rather than remain a citizen in a civilized country like Canada and in turn blame his self imposed problems on Canada.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Leafless

[Leafless]

To be saved from deportation to Syria the US authorities required the Canadians to arrest him when they had nothing to arrest him for. failing that then the US would deport him to Syria.

Catch 22 for an innocent man brought about by beurocratic incompetence.

The U.S had their own their own file on Arar and like you said and Canadians cannot arrest a person without nothing to arrest him for.

Let's be clear if Arar was not also a citizen of Syria he would have been deported to Canada.

The U.S was under no specific mandate not to deport him to his homeland Syria.

2) Expedited Removal under INA § 235© INA § 235© states that “f an immigration officer or an immigration judge suspects that an arriving alien may be inadmissible … [for a security-related ground], the officer or judge shall … order the alien removed.â€62One security-related ground is when “the Attorney General knows, or has reasonable ground to believe, [that the alien] is engaged in or is likely to engage after entry in any terrorist activity.â€63The Attorney General must review this order. If the Attorney General finds that the noncitizen is inadmissible for a security-related ground, and that “disclosure of the information would be prejudicial to the public interest, safety, or security,†he may “order the alien removed.â€64The Attorney General’s decision is not reviewable by an immigration judge.65INA § 235© does not explicitly provide for relief under the Convention Against Torture, but the regulations do.66The regulations state that the immigration agency “shall not execute a removal order under [iNA § 235©] … under circumstances that violate … Article 3 of the Convention Against Torture.â€67The regulations, however, do not specifically set forth the procedures for considering Convention Against Torture claims in the INA § 235© expedited removal context. They simply state that the immigration agency will “assess the applicability of Article 3 through the removal process to ensure that a removal order will not be executed under circumstances that would violate the obligations of the United States under Article 3.â€68The regulations add that the normal asylum procedures “shall not apply.â€69Thus, it is unclear what procedures the U.S. immigration agency had to follow to consider Mr. Arar’s request to avoid being tortured

[Higgly]

Arar's problems were created by his own hand by remaining a citizen of terrorist country Syria.

Oh I know. Him and all those Japanese out on the west coast in 1942.

This is just plain dumb. You accept him into the country, grant him citizenship knowing he is retaining his Syrian citizenship, and then do this to him because he was dumb enough to remain a citizen of the country he came from?

A terrorist state? Funny they have an embassy here. On Slater Street, yet!

Edited October 27, 2007 by Higgly

[bush_cheney2004]

The Americans had a sovereign right to deport Mr. Arar to Syria regardless of the RCMP circle jerk and soap opera in Canada.

[Higgly]

So what's the problem with taking him off the no-fly list? What am I missing here?

[bush_cheney2004]

So what's the problem with taking him off the no-fly list? What am I missing here?

There are 10,000,000 reasons.

[Higgly]

There are 10,000,000 reasons.

Why not just give us the top 10?