Throne Speech October 2007

[capricorn]

But are they manufacturing fear?

That's a possibility. The thing is, each community thinks that the crime rate in their area is way too high. Your linked article refers to per capita crime rates. Does this mean that just because Toronto has a large population, it is OK to accept that a higher rate of homicide and other crimes occur in that city?

Any government whether federal, provincial or municipal that pays lip service to reducing crime has a winning issue. Again because of the perception in communities that one crime is one too many. Let's call it zero tolerance for any and all crime, from robberies to muggings to home invasions to assault and to murder.

Speaking of manufacturing fear, the Liberals do a good job in painting Harper as a very scary person with a hidden agenda. Maybe Harper has learned that fear is a great motivator. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. That's just the way she goes in politics.

[Visionseeker]

A multiculturalism policy that is the envy of all pluralistic nations??? Are you freakin' kidding yourself?

It's the envy of nobody. Hell, not even a majority of Canadians would agree with that. Never mind the majority of citicens in any other nation on the planet.

Look at France and the riots they experienced... Australia has had its own nasty bouts of unrest... Yet we in Canada have a far greater proportion and concentration of newcomers and the only bricks we see are when police forces seek to incite protesters.

A majority of Canadians revealed that they harbour racist beliefs in recent polls conducted by Sun media. But other polls show that Canadians also support multiculturalism as a policy. Do these not contradict each other? Is one series right and the other wrong? Or is there a more nuanced explanation for this apparent contradiction?

Multiculturalism has both allowed a kinder method of integration into the mainstream and largely denied us the misfortune of racially charged grievance politics. And this has not gone unnoticed in Europe and elsewhere.

[Michael Bluth]

Or is there a more nuanced explanation for this apparent contradiction?

Perhaps it has to do with our general distaste for conflict?

You talk about nuanced then make statements like this?

a multiculturalism policy that is the envy of all pluralistic nations

Envy of all? Not too nuanced at all.

Ahhh, the glory of the Liberal Party of Canada in it's fullest. Can Dion's sellout save them from an historic drubbing at the polls? Or will it relegate them to third party status in the House of Commons?

[Visionseeker]

Given the following quote of Stephane Dion, I'd say the Liberals have retreated on some grounds of so-called principle. As to your suggestion that the Liberals are developing a "vision", I thought Dion already had a "critical vision" about the environment:Stephane Dion, 24 August 2007

The environment might have won Dion the leadership, but it won't win him an election. Pharmacare might just be the pill he needs though.

If Dion truly believed what he wrote, the Liberal Party would not be abstaining on the vote of this Throne Speech. Trudeau would never have abstained on a matter he felt a "critical challenge".

Dion doesn't have Trudeau's charisma, nor does Harper for that matter. These are ideas guys, as such, the one with the best ideas will probably win.

The problem with that list is that the last major change was the Charter of Rights in 1982. It was a change, BTW, that critically left the Quebec government out of the equation. We wouldn't have Confederation if Macdonald had approached the problem the same way.

In any case, 1982 was 25 years ago and since then, the Liberals haven't done much of anything. Trudeau was the last time that the Liberals could claim to have any kind of "vision". To his credit, Trudeau made Ottawa bilingual (but he also destroyed alot of goodwill in English-Canada in the process). And all of that was almost 40 years ago.

It left the Quebec governement out, but it didn't leave Quebec out. A majority of Quebeckers supported and continue to support the CRF. Trudeau shut-out Levesque who mistakenly thought that the "beau risque" involved holding the rest of the country hostage. Levesque was eaten alive by his own party for his failure. A reality avoidant cult (legitimized by Mulroney) soon followed using the Holocaust diminishing "night of the long knives" argument.

Heck, John Turner fought (and lost) an election on free trade.

Free trade is a feather in the Conservative cap. But soft wood lumber shows how a deal is not necessarily a deal with the US. If only Williams would do the same over Churchill, they'd get a better "deal".

Trudeau never compromised on Quebec's place in Canada (and almost lost an election on it).

He had the strength of his convictions. Now tell me which election he almost lost as a result of those.

Pearson stood up to all kinds of abuse (and never won a majority) because he thought, for example, Canada should have a new flag.

Yep, Canada having a flag was and is a bad thing. What was Pearson thinking?

For the past few decades, the Liberals have been coasting and now they are just empty of any reason for existing - except to have power and enjoy the perks of Challengers, limos and to feel important. Liberals like to win because they like to feel like winners.

I've already pointed-out how your assessment is flawed, but let us recap the last few decades of Liberal limo riding:

Health care

CPP

Bilingualism (I'd failed to note that one before)

Referendum

Constitution

Referendum (the sequal)

Fiscal sanity

You mention "masterfully administering our war efforts". Huh? King thought Hitler was a great and wise leader of the German people. Indeed, I think the modern day Liberals have sunk below even the crass opportunism of King.

King wasn't the only one to be proven wrong on the Hitler score. Roosevelt and Stalin pronounced him as the cat's meow too. But King is to be distinguished by how quickly he righted his wrong assessment and got Canadian industry and shipping on a footing that saved the former mother country. Are you completely ignorant of our Atlantic lifeline?

I frankly don't know what the latest crew running the Liberal Party stands for. Apparently, they'll stand for anything.

The Liberal party has an uncanny ability to stand for our next great challenge, something tells me they won't disappoint in 2008.

Edited October 18, 2007 by Visionseeker

[jbg]

I take it you are being facetious.

Not at all. If the Liberals absent some of their members in order to be able to vote against the Speech, why shouldn't an equal number of Conservatives abstain since the CPC likely wants an election?

[jbg]

Nope, won't happen, unless you belive that Iggy will not run again as leader..

Think of the optics.

Any interim leader is going to have to regularly eat a full diet of crap sandwiches from Harper, supporting him on all of the numerous confidence votes, until the Liberal Party slects a leader. This applies as well to any contenders for the leadership that are presently MPs.

That image would hobble the Liberal Party forever, and cripple the new leader. You cannot be both an effective leader in the House, and a serious candidate for Party leader, while you are doing a prolonged imitation of Harpers puppet.

That post is actually hilarious. Dion may choose the "crap sandwich" routine in the hopes that a long-overdue cyclical recession hurts the incumbents. Remember 1992 in the US, 1993 in Canada?

[jbg]

We? Does that mean you're going to vote this time?

I have never voted in a Canadian election.

[WestViking]

Dion can rsign as leader and appoint Iggy as interm leader and then wait for the leadership convention to happen. He can do this by supporting the CPC for another 1-2 months and after that, the liberal can force an election, which yes they will probably lose any way. There is no magical formula that will give the liberals power for atleast the next decade or so. That is why party big names stayed awy from the last leadership race.

Unless Dion brings down the government by month end, it will be too late for a fall election and we will be into another over Christmas campaign and January election.

If he waits, we will be into an April or May election.

[Visionseeker]

Perhaps it has to do with our general distaste for conflict?

You talk about nuanced then make statements like this?

Envy of all? Not too nuanced at all.

Ahhh, the glory of the Liberal Party of Canada in it's fullest. Can Dion's sellout save them from an historic drubbing at the polls? Or will it relegate them to third party status in the House of Commons?

Everyone should have a hobby. But what exactly do you do with all that straw?

Your second question isn't even a question. Proper punctuation is important if you are to be properly understood.

I'll let you enjoy the fantasy of the Liberals becoming the third party, for I have grown tired of rescuing Conservatives from their delusions.

[Visionseeker]

Not at all. If the Liberals absent some of their members in order to be able to vote against the Speech, why shouldn't an equal number of Conservatives abstain since the CPC likely wants an election?

Because it would harm them politically.

But then, trying to force an election will accomplish the same. The Conservatives have become quite insistent to go to the polls…which simply underscores that the great motivator of fear must be at work.

[dpwozney]

According to CBC News, “Gov. Gen. Michaëlle Jean delivered the speech from the throne, ...â€.

The Governor General of Canada is a “corporation soleâ€, according to Elizabeth II in this document. A “corporation sole†is defined and recognized as being a corporation.

It is a fiction that a corporation is a person.

“A corporation is a fiction, by definition, ...â€, according to Patrick Healy in a statement found in evidence provided to Parliament's Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights in 2002.

“A corporation is a ‘fiction’ as it has no separate existence, no physical body and no ‘mind’â€, according to Joanne Klineberg in a presentation to the Canadian Aviation Safety Seminar in 2004.

Is your faith such that you believe a corporation is real? Who would be a defender of faith like that?

[Michael Bluth]

Everyone should have a hobby. But what exactly do you do with all that straw?

Your second question isn't even a question. Proper punctuation is important if you are to be properly understood.

Or maybe use an allusion that somebody might be able to understand without further explanation? That sure is some nuanced statment you made there.

I'll let you enjoy the fantasy of the Liberals becoming the third party, for I have grown tired of rescuing Conservatives from their delusions.

Ahhh, what classicaly arrogant behaviour. Ignore the polls. Ignore the pundits. Just keep insulting people and feeling superior.

Do you properly understand this? The Liberals have lost public favour because of their unfounded arrogance. That arrogance cost them a majority in 2004. That arrogance cost them government in 2006. That arrogance could relegate them to third party status in the coming election.

Edited October 18, 2007 by Michael Bluth

[maldon_road]

It's all a Tory plot. Harper wants to have the Libs defeat the crime bill because he wants to see Dion go across the country explaining how it is okay for a 65-yr old guy to have sex with a 14-yr old girl.

[maldon_road]

This basically says it all. The reason that the Libs are losing candidates and officials in Quebec is because of the leader. He has been leader for 10 months and the Liberals are stalled. They have not gained in popularity - either in Quebec or in ROC. The pereception is that Dion is too academic and cannot communicate properly. The only reason the Liberals still have their head above water is because of continuing suspicion of Harper by the public.

The deck chairs are jumping ship but the captain is still on the bridge.

However, some members of the party's Quebec wing were far from confident yesterday that Hervieux-Payette's arrival will be the tonic the party needs.

"He can change all the Quebec lieutenants he wants, but the problem is him," said one Liberal who supported Dion in the leadership race but no longer believes he has the skills needed to lead the party.

"He can move the chairs around on the deck of the Titanic, but that's not really going to solve our problem in Quebec."

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...72-8a3863e3b147

Edited October 18, 2007 by maldon_road

[shavluk]

Hahaha

Howdy

Just great entertainment here and some of you should be writing plot lines for soap operas. Very good.

It would never fall on a throne speech ,seconded.

Budget yes.

Still I don't think so just yet.

Myself , well I have hopes of a different nature and outcome arrived at with a different means than most and it may only be wishful thinking ,, but

I don't think we shall see any election until at least Feb 7 2008.

After this time we will see Green seats and a Dion government.

Of course I for one am still cognisant of the meld down possibly happening in the good ole Us of A.

Imagine Dion gone and the same problem then arises as Rae is nipping at Iggy's heels.

No ,, what is needed is just a " REAL " renewed pledge of allegiance to the actual liberal party and the self possessed blinders taken off.

It should happen. I think it will.

Dion is the better man to hold them all in check as he is the least ego driven.

Iggy or Rae gives us the same old ,same old.

Kennedy would be my next best choice just to cut out all the chiefdom's that were allowed to grow over the years ,,although all of them in different circumstances can do no worse than what harper will now do just in the spirit of this country and what it did stand for when my family came to this country.

Sure stopped the sponsership issue dead in its tracks didnt it ?

My 2 cents.

Thanks for asking.

Edited October 18, 2007 by shavluk

[geoffrey]

I don't think we shall see any election until at least Feb 7 2008.

After this time we will see Green seats and a Dion government.

Wow man, you must really have some good bud out in BC?

[capricorn]

Kennedy would be my next best choice just to cut out all the chiefdom's that were allowed to grow over the years ,,although all of them in different circumstances can do no worse than what harper will now do just in the spirit of this country and what it did stand for when my family came to this country.

Shavluk, just so that I may fully understand where you are coming from, when did your family come to Canada? Were you born in Canada? Sorry to sound so personal but if you prefer not to answer I will understand. Thank you.

[shavluk]

I cant really say I am afraid of anything any more to my self ,, personally.

I am first generation Ukrainian Canadian ,,born here in 1957.

My dad and uncle were sponsored here by my grandfather in 1936

The rest of my family had been killed or starved by the Stalin regime and after many years he was finally successful in bringing them here to join him.

My grandfather had been a prisoner of the Russians and had been tortured regularly and was instrumental in teaching me a great deal about human rights and why he fought so hard.

Why do you ask?

[shavluk]

Wow man, you must really have some good bud out in BC?

Top notch

Its medicinal.

[no queenslave]

According to CBC News, “Gov. Gen. Michaëlle Jean delivered the speech from the throne, ...â€.

The Governor General of Canada is a “corporation soleâ€, according to Elizabeth II in this document. A “corporation sole†is defined and recognized as being a corporation.

It is a fiction that a corporation is a person.

“A corporation is a fiction, by definition, ...â€, according to Patrick Healy in a statement found in evidence provided to Parliament's Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights in 2002.

“A corporation is a ‘fiction’ as it has no separate existence, no physical body and no ‘mind’â€, according to Joanne Klineberg in a presentation to the Canadian Aviation Safety Seminar in 2004.

Is your faith such that you believe a corporation is real? Who would be a defender of faith like that?

canada is a corporation in the name of the crown and queen.mp have no sole-no mind of their own.

[geoffrey]

mp have no sole

The fish or the shoe?

And does their soul disappear the day they get elected or something? Does the Queen suck it out with her evil soul sucking death ray?

[Visionseeker]

This basically says it all. The reason that the Libs are losing candidates and officials in Quebec is because of the leader. He has been leader for 10 months and the Liberals are stalled. They have not gained in popularity - either in Quebec or in ROC. The pereception is that Dion is too academic and cannot communicate properly. The only reason the Liberals still have their head above water is because of continuing suspicion of Harper by the public.

The deck chairs are jumping ship but the captain is still on the bridge.

Well Garneau has jumped back into the fray.

Garneau to run for Liberals after all

Dion is far from done.

The Liberals have taken a collective deep breath and are beginning to put aside rivalries in order to concentrate on the task of defeating Harper. And a united group of Liberals will be too much for Harper to fight alone.

The Conservatives recognize this and we are now starting to see their cabinet ministers under fewer restrictions to engage the press (particularly television and radio). This is somewhat risky for them as one slip of message will inevitably fuel public suspicions, but Harper simply can't be the only public face of the party.

Dion has a certain advantage here: for he has many recognized and trusted figures in his party to do the talk circuits.

As for the NDP, well, all this attention on the Liberals has left Jack on the airwaves margins. They made a critical mistake by not trying to shape the Liberal difficulties as a manifestation of public fatigue with anything Liberal and thus, people are looking to the NDP for a new standard barer for the centre-left. But then, the NDP only borrows Liberal votes, they aren't interested in keeping them.

[geoffrey]

Dion has a certain advantage here: for he has many recognized and trusted figures in his party to do the talk circuits.

Uhhh who?

[no queenslave]

The fish or the shoe?

And does their soul disappear the day they get elected or something? Does the Queen suck it out with her evil soul sucking death ray?

how do you know the queen has an evil sole sucking thing; did she demonstrate it for you?

[Michael Bluth]

Well Garneau has jumped back into the fray.

Garneau to run for Liberals after all

Dion is far from done.

Dion needs a star candidate to keep a safe Liberal seat?

Real strong leadership. A strong leader woulda told Garneau to kiss off, but hey we ain't talkin' about principles...