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This is sexist. Women can play an active role in a sexual relationship and men can play a passive role.

So are you saying that no awareness campaigns on issues such as acceptance of homosexuals has had any longterm effect on society? The primary purpose of an awareness campaign would be to provide people with more information. If more people are aware that male suicides outnumber female suicides by a ratio of 4 to 1 for example, then people in society are more likely to take actions to prevent male suicides. That's not so much an awareness campaign as it is the complete infiltration of social justice warriors into our education system. So, create an awareness campaign so that more people realize that boys are falling behind girls in terms of education. I really think that you misunderstand what social conditioning is. Having an occupation dominated by one gender is not social conditioning. Having a person constantly discouraged from entering a profession by society from a young age because that profession does not agree with the gender role that society implies they should have is.

One can attach status to an occupation without attaching genders to occupations.

TimG, I think you are completely misunderstanding my position. I'm not pretending biological factors don't affect gender outcomes, nor am I suggesting that gender equality of outcome in everything is optimal.

I was responding to the claim 'she beat all the men'. I would have responded the same were someone claiming 'he beat all the men'. Obviously, since basketball is a team game, and her team contained men, she did not beat all the men.

And here I thought basketball was a team game.

First of all, social conditioning doesn't just affect the choices an individual may make, but also how society may treat an individual based upon the choices they make. From a psychological heath standpoint, gendered social conditioning can reduce a societies psychological health either by putting societal pressure on a person to perform actions they would not otherwise perform or by reducing the social safety net for persons in distress. The 4 to 1 male to female suicide ratio has a lot to do with expectations that males fulfill their gender role and the fact that there is not as much support for males in distress. On the other hand, gendered social conditioning can lead to health problems such as higher rates of anorexia in females. From an efficiency standpoint, strong social conditioning can harm the long term productivity of a society. Suppose for the sake of argument that 2% of males are biologically suited to be computer programmers and 1% of females are biologically suited to be computer programmers. If you have societal social conditioning where society treats computer programming as a 'male profession' and discourages females from being computer programmers because it does not fit their gender role, then you will discourage a large portion of those potential female computer programmers from considering computer programming as a career option, and you now have a smaller pool of potential computer programs for the market to choose from (which means there will be fewer computer programmers or computer programmers of lower quality). Gendered social conditioning generally leads to a poorer allocation of labour to the appropriate professions. You can counter social conditioning in 'organic' ways such as awareness campaigns.

I disagree TimG. If gender outcome is different due to social conditioning, that should be treated differently than if gender outcome is different due to biology.

Are you implying that women cannot do trades? Talk about sexist... Anyway, to add to the list: - Traditionally, men are expected to pay for dates for some reason. - Traditionally, it is up to the male to make a marriage proposal. - In scenarios of natural disasters or wars, there is a sexist concept of 'women and children first' (see the Titanic movie for example). - It is more socially acceptable to be a stay-at-home mother than a stay-at-home father.

Maybe, maybe not. Certainly testosterone is linked to aggression and risk taking activity. However, societal pressures may play a big role (in both people choosing career paths, and how much risky behaviour people perform). Even within the same workplace and after controlling for career choices, males tend to have higher death rates. Male police officers are more likely to be killed than female police officers, male soldiers are more likely to be killed than female soldiers, etc. Personally, I have experienced in the workplace the expectation from my employer and my coworkers that because I am male I should 'be a man' and perform more risky workplace activities compared to my female coworkers that are paid the same. The higher death rate is also related to the normalization of violence against males in society. I am not really sure if most murders are occupationally related or not. Certainly some of the murder gender gap is due to greater risk taking activity by males (which may be partly due to society pressures and partly due to biology). However, another factor is that it is more socially acceptable to harm males than females and many people are conditioned from birth to accept this. So given similar situations (being kidnapped, being a prisoner of war, being mugged, etc.), men are more likely to be killed. It being more socially acceptable to harm males is related to the fact that males are the biologically expendable gender. Societal evolution (and arguably biological evolution) favored societies that valued men less than women. But it may also be related to male gender disposability and men having less intrinsic value in society. It may be related that there is less social support for males than females if they are in distress. It may be related to the fact that society is overall less sympathetic to the concerns of males and males are often told to 'be men' or 'grow balls' and stop complaining. Support awareness campaigns that try to make people question 'masculinity' within society. Encourage governments and society to provide more support for males in distress. Fund advertisements to help deconstruct traditional gender roles and encourage greater gender equality. Rather than have a minister for 'women's affairs' have a minister for 'gender affairs'. Rather than have 'women's studies' in universities, have 'gender studies' in universities. I'll also add to the list: Genital mutilation of male infants is socially acceptable, but genital mutilation of female infants is not socially acceptable.

It isn't necessarily an issue but it might be. Perhaps all the emphasize on empowering girls and pushing girls to go to university has discouraged boys from doing so. Perhaps boys are falling behind in early education (maybe due to changes in the way western countries do education; such as less emphasis on competition, more emphasis on social justice) results in the lower rate of boys attending universities. Perhaps the combination of most primary school teachers being female + the increasing number of fatherless households results in boys having fewer male role models. Perhaps the greater availability of female only scholarships relative to male only scholarships is causing some of this university gender gap. At any rate, it seems inconsistent to claim that when males made up 56% of university students it was sexist, but now when 60% of university students are female it is perfectly fine (and this is the position of many mainstream feminists).

Patriarchy is an unfalsifiable flying spaghetti monster. You could just as easily describe our society as a Matriarchy and then claim that 'women are hurt by Matriarchy too' whenever sexism disadvantages females.

Yet would you apply the same argument to lack of women in STEM fields for example? What do you think of all the campaigns to get women into STEM fields. Should we also have campaigns to get women to do jobs such as installing shingles? And then what about the relationship with the gender wage gap. If one of the reasons women earn less money on average is because they take up less risky jobs, then shouldn't the issue of the workplace death gap be addressed in order to address the gender wage gap? No, I just recognize that it exists. Mainstream feminism on the other hand would have you believe that women are perfect angels and that everything bad in the world is 100% due to men.

Yes.

This ignores female agency as well as the role of societal pressures. But comments along the lines of 'well men are stupid so they deserve it' are too be expected in these kinds of discussions. However, there is a clear societal double standard here. Apparently, saying 'men make different decisions so deserve it' with respect to higher rates of male workplace deaths or lower life expectancy is acceptable, but saying 'women make different decisions so deserve it' with respect to lower female earnings is not acceptable.

masculinity: possession of qualities traditionally associated with men. femininity: quality of being female; womenliness. I don't view it as helpful to achieving gender/sex equality to associate human traits with specific genders/sexes. The concepts of masculinity and femininity are very much tied to gender roles. Society will often value someone on how well they fit their gender role and on how many masculine or feminine traits they possess. I reject gender roles and think they make 0 sense in modern society. They made sense in hunter gatherer times though. People get sex changes for a variety of reasons, the primary one being gender dysphoria. Males are more likely to have gender dysphoria. Why do you think that is?

Offer me a job that pays at least $ 50,000 per year on the condition that I have to get a sex change operation and I will do it. Although that will not address the fact that young males having difficulty getting their foot in the door for work experience will hurt their future earnings regardless of whether they get a sex change operation or not. While on the topic of sex changes. Transwomen outnumber transmen by a ratio of 3-4 to 1. If women are so oppressed compared to men then shouldn't the converse be true (that more women are willing to become men)?

Just because one can understand concepts doesn't mean that one should accept them. I reject masculinity and femininity in the sense that I don't think that support of these concepts do a net good for society.

To be accurate, it is mainstream feminists not caring about men's rights. There are individuals that identify as feminists that do care about men's rights (example: Christina Hoff Sommers). If you support gender egalitarianism then you should support men's rights, as well as women's rights and the rights of non-gender-binary-identifying individuals. Supporters of men's rights include people of all genders and sexual orientations. As for me, I am an asexual male. Unfortunately, I don't have much time right now to give you an indepth overview of men's rights issues because my life is sort of in shambles. Maybe I will have time in a few months. For now, I suggest you visit Karen Straughan's youtube channel. Particularly, she has playlists on male rights, feminism and masculinity. https://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat A major challenge with people bringing up men's rights issues is that it is such a social taboo. Women's rights groups never faced such a big hurdle because traditional gender roles have women being frail, weak, emotional and society is taught to listen to the concerns of females. Men are taught to be tough and never complain and society traditionally looks down upon men that may appear effeminate. The phrases 'be a man' or 'man up' come to mind. You think I have discussed men's rights issues with my family or friends? Not a chance (well that's not entirely true, I did open up briefly to 1 friend a few months ago). You think I would bring it up in a university setting even if people are discussing gender issues? No, universities are echo chambers of mainstream feminist dogma. Do you think you will get a fair portrayal of men's rights groups by the mainstream media? No (One of Evan Delshaw's videos is a good example ). Even writing this on an anonymous internet forum makes me uncomfortable. There are different groups of MRAs just like there are different groups of feminists. There are some groups that claim to be MRAs and are very traditionalist and/or misogynist. But then there are some MRA groups that support gender egalitarianism and want to eliminate traditional gender roles. MGTOW groups tend to be borderline misogynist in my opinion. Overall, I would say most mainstream MRAs are closer to gender egalitarianism, but that is just my opinion. Men's rights groups tend to be more critical of women's rights in Muslim majority countries compared to many feminist groups. I think one of the reasons you may hear a lot the claim that men's rights are just about men wanting male privilege is because mainstream feminist dogma simply cannot allow for the existence of anything else. Maintaining the belief in mainstream feminism often requires the false dichotomy between traditionalism and mainstream feminism. Well here is a brief list I made in the other thread: - 90% of homeless people are male (and only 50% of homeless services are offered to males). - 92% of workplace deaths are male. Male suicides outnumber Female suicides by 4 to 1. - Males make up half of victims of domestic abuse, but there is basically zero support for them. - In the event of a domestic dispute, police will almost always side with the female. - The life expectancy gap still remains but society doesn't seem to care. - Breast cancer funding far outweights prostate cancer funding. - Females are far more likely to get custody of children in the event of a divorce. - Males make up 77% of murder victims. - Males are more likely to be assaulted. - Society mandates that males should not hit females, but if females hit males it is 'girl power'. - There is basically zero support for male victims of rape and often government definitions of rape will exclude 'forced penetration' from the definition of rape. - Females make up 60% of university students and this percentage is growing. When men were the majority (say 56%) of university students, feminists were complaining about sexism greatly. Now this issue is ignored. I'll also add: - Boys are falling behind girls in early education achievement. Especially when it comes to reading. This is arguably due to the feminization of our education system. - Women control the majority of domestic spending despite supposedly having lower wages. This is one of the reasons why you see luxuries such as jewelry marketed primarily to women. - Males are often portrayed as idiots or buffoons in media to point of being a stereotype. - Violence against males is normalized by our media, to the point where it is normal to make fun of male victims of domestic violence abuse. - Many countries have a male only draft and males are expected to do the majority of dying in the event of a war. Yet mainstream feminism would have you believe that 'women are the primary victims of war'. http://clinton3.nara.gov/WH/EOP/First_Lady/html/generalspeeches/1998/19981117.html - It is socially acceptable for women to wear both pants and skirts/dresses. The same is not true for men.

No, it's about why people choose or do not choose to identify as feminists. You mention #WomenAgainstFeminism in the original post, but apparently discussing one of the main reasons why women would choose not to identify as feminists is outside of this topic of discussion... What is your concept of a discussion topic exactly? Is your view that you just make a topic about how #WomenAgainstFeminism are misguided and how oppressed women are in western society and any dissenting opinion such as why women would chose not to identify as feminists is 'off-topic'? How is that a discussion? That is an echo chamber. Men's issues, women's issues. These are all human issues and they are inter-related. You don't think that men making 92% of workplace deaths is a women's issue? Well flip that around. 8% of workplace deaths are female. This is a women's issue. How are we going to reach gender parity on workplace deaths? Also, are you going to answer my transwomen question yet?

Is it? We have two self proclaimed feminists, Jacee and WestCoastRunner, admitting that their version of feminism does not include men's issues. Mainstream feminism is not about gender equality at all. Which is exactly why many people choose not to identify as feminists. This answers the implicit question of the original post of why people are choosing not to identify as feminists.

I am not hijacking this thread. Lack of acknowledgement of male issues is one of the reasons many people choose not to identify as feminists. And yes it does take less time to write a comment in a thread than to start a new one (or rather, start a good quality one; see my thread of climate sensitivity). Your attempts at using sexist gender conditioning to control my behaviour will not work. And speaking of my balls, you never answered my transwomen question. If I decided to get a sex change operation, would I now be more 'oppressed' and therefore should have better employment prospects?

So you two admit that feminism, or at least your version of it, is not about gender egalitarianism and ignores male gender issues? And then you two wonder why some people don't want to identify as feminists...

I would like to, but I don't have the time right now. I have other issues to deal with such as trying not to be homeless, trying not to commit suicide, obtaining decent employment while being at the bottom of the social justice hierarchy, and dealing with brain damage that was inflicted upon me by other males (and the fact that our society normalizes violence against males doesn't help). Feminine and Masculine are sexist gender concepts which I reject.

Why is everything up to men? This is sexist and ignores female agency in society. People of all genders should be trying to move society towards gender equity, not just males.