Scotty

No, police incompetence cost millions. The poor training, discipline, leadership and planning of the Toronto police cost millions. If they'd done their jobs there would have been minimal damages, but they were frightened and badly coordinated, so did nothing but watch until it was safe to attack people the next day.

Why do you think it's better to live in a country where most workers get almost no vacations, no sick leave, and no pensions, as well as poor pay, instead of living in a country where most workers get good vacations, good sick leave coverage, good pensions, and healthy salaries?

I'd really like you to shadow a friend or two of mine who works for the government, but I think you'd be exhausted just from watching, and certainly couldn't handle the long hours and stress. Government managers, for example, who don't get overtime, often put in 60-70hrs a week. One I know hasn't managed to get in under 50 hours in over a year, and that's while working through lunches and breaks.

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not aware of "protestors" assaulting anyone during the entire duration of the G20. Every assault, and certainly every serious assault that I've seen reported was committed by police officers, almost entirely on innocent, law-abiding people. A couple of punks set a couple of empty police cars on fire. Big crying shame. That's hardly a reason for a police riot, or to excuse the police from roaming the streets and attacking people at random.

Then the thing to do is to bring the private sector up, not the public sector down. Private sector employees in most European countries are entitled to far better benefits, vacations, pensions, etc, than in the Canadian public service. Maybe the answer is to expand unions into more areas of the private sector.

Given the nature of the statements made by Catherine Swift over the last year or so I'm in no doubt that if she had her way all public service unions would be banned, and all public servants would be working for minimum wages with no benefits. She's openly anti-union, public or private, and can best be described as an American style Republican wannabee, one of those bozos who wants to ban unions and any worker rights for the good of 'business'. I trust nothing she says and nothing that comes out of her organization. That's bloody nonsense. I suppose you think the guys who play single A ball are of the same caliber as those playing in the major leagues, too, and ought to earn the same salaries. Yes, but the way anti-union organizations like the CFIB make comparisons, they don't compare the big government clerk to the big private sector organization clerk. They compare the big government clerk to a whole host of private sector clerks, many of whom have minimal responsibilities, experience and skills. This gives them the figures they want to wave around. Then it's a wonder the private sector manages to hire any workers, given they could all easily get into the public service and do the exact same job with the same skill and education but for vastly greater remuneration, eh?

"between 1980 and 2005". How is the Conservative government responsible for that?

I think it's probably you who doesn't know what you're talking about. I will agree that compensation is sometimes too generous for government employees. Why do bus drivers, for example, make more than managers in the public service? In fact, at the municipal level, virtually all jobs seem overpaid. It's not as bad at the provincial level, nor at the federal level. For federal public servants, lower level employees probably get somewhat better pay than counterparts in the private sector. However, medium high to higher level public servants earn considerably less than their private sector counterparts. They accept this in no small part because of the added security and benefits. As far as I'm aware, a public servant, after 25 years of work is entitled to a 50% pension. Their pension tops out at 70% for 35 years of work, which can be pretty decent, if you can get that many years in. Federal public servants don't get the Canada Pension Plan, or rather, the entirety of what they are entitled to (they make payments into CPP their entire careers in addition to their own pension plans) is deducted from their own pension cheques. That strikes me as quite the deduction, and lowers their actual government pension amount considerably. For example, if you paid into CPP all your life, at the maximum rate, you are entitled to $960 a month CPP. That ENTIRE amount will be deducted from whatever your government pension cheque amount is supposed to be.

Germany has had ongoing economic issues since its absorption of east Germany following the collapse of Communism. And despite pouring billions into helping sustain less economical EEC partners, their unemployment rate is currently on a 19 year low.

I'm willing to bet almost none of you know what government retirement benefits are, or what benefits are for non-government unionized employees either. How many people were aware, for example, that the autoworkers contributed essentially nothing to their pension plans? Government workers at least have always had a substantial sum deducted from their cheques every two weeks going into their retirements.

Large organizations generally require more out of people in the way of credentials, education and in the complexity of work. Government IS an industry, in fact, if you want to put it that way. Why should it pay the same as the retail industry when the jobs aren't necessarily comparable?

You know, in Europe, they seem to be able to have a decent society, with successful businesses while ensuring all employees get decent wages and benefits, lots of vacations along with plenty of sick leave. Why do you think that's not the way to go? You seem to be angling more for an American system, which basically says screw everyone but the rich, pay the minimum, give no benefits, and make the most profits. Personally, I think the German way is a much better society, and I don't see German companies crying out for bankruptcy or government bailouts the way American companies are.

But an industry average would also include the Dollar Store, and all those little mom and pop retail outlets which pay minimum wage. And who says that a strategy to limit turnover isn't the right way for the government to go?

You can't just take bald data like that on its face value. As the op you responded to pointed out, 'the private sector' includes a wide variety of job types. What's a clerk in the private sector vs a clerk in the public sector? Do they really do the same jobs? Large organizations tend to have a lot more complicated sets of requirements. Is the accountant who does people's taxes for a small firm in the private sector making the same as an accountant who does complicated books for a major corporation? No? Then why should he be the same as an accountant working for the federal government? The private sector guy working for a cleaning company might make minimum wages for mopping down the floor of supermarket, but the public sector guy is probably cleaning a hospital or lab or something like that with much more severe demands. Does a purchasing clerk working for a small company make the million dollar purchases the same guy in the public sector might? Is he using the same complicated software and responsible for abiding by the same levels of Treasury board and departmental policies and guidelines? As the op pointed out, 'the private sector' will, in addition to comparable jobs in large multinationals, include an awful lot of low level jobs in very cheap organizations which don't require much and don't pay much. It's not fair to be comparing them to the federal government, which strives to make itself an employer of choice.

What's yer measure of reasonable? What the workers make in Botswana? Wages and benefits are comparable to other large organizations. Yeah, but this is still BS. Canada Post, in fact, fired a whole pile of people over the last year when the economy was tanking. And to repeat, I know of no one who remained in his same job and was faced with his pay rate being dropped by his private sector employer. Not saying it might not have happened somewhere, but it certainly didn't in any large organizations I'm aware of.

That's a pretty low bar you set for 'greed'. Used to be they had to be greedy if they made outrageous demands. Now they're greedy if they won't surrender what they have and take lower wages and benefits. I personally don't know anyone in the private sector who is in the same job but had to take a wage cut. There might be some people whose income is based on sales or such, but most people are making the same as they were last year and the year before, unless they lost their jobs.

Not unless he has a very cooperative doctor, he isn't. You don't get to use up your sick leave before retirement. And if Canada Post has any doubts about his health they can have him evaluated by their own doctors and cut him off if he's found healthy.

That's as may be, but with or without unions we in Canada don't want to see a situation in which you can pay skilled workers a fraction of what they're getting now. That wouldn't be good for any of us - except maybe you. Brazil workers get six weeks of vacation from the get go, you know. So do workers in Peru. How is it outrageous for Canada Post workers to get that after thirty years of work? You're completely wrong. Executive compensation and bonuses are probably why we had a recession. All those big shots making short term decisions which will give them fat, multi-million dollar bonuses while driving the companies into the ground. And how many of the CEOs and big shots of the big banks and brokerage houses went bankrupt in 2008?

The soft sciences are having a little meeting called the Congress of the Humanities and Social Sciences, and released some research the other day on civility during Question Period. This is a topic on which we heard quite a bit over the last couple of years, with opposition supporters lamenting how rude and uncivil the government is. Only it isn't. The social science types - who one would not expect to be highly supportive of Tories - found the Tories to be more civil than the opposition. The worst offender in the house? Jack Layton. It also found that sixty percent of the questions posed were rhetorical. House Civility

I think a lot of the anti union people are simply jealous. They're working in areas which give few benefits and little vacation, and instead of resenting their employers they resent other workers who have what they don't have. But it isn't greedy to want to have vacations. Around the world, most countries mandate far more vacation than we get in Canada. In most of Europe, you're looking at a starting vacation, mandated by government, as of your first year of working, of four or five weeks. Generally, government workers in Canada start at 3 weeks, and jump to 4 weeks after about ten years. Five weeks doesn't come until, I think, the eighteenth year of service, and six weeks at close to thirty years. Places like Finland and Austria START at six weeks vacation! Then there's the sick leave. Generally, in the government, you get about fourteen days or so a year. Smart people bank that vacation so that when they're older, if they have a bad illness, heart attack, stroke, cancer, whatever, they'll have it to fall back on. Even if not, well, as you get older, as you move into your fifties and sixties (not all government workers retire at 55) you get a lot more aches and pains. Nice to have sick leave to fall back on. Canada Post wants to cut sick leave down to 5 days a year, and have it non-bankable. Now you might think the workers have it cushy as it is, but why on earth would you think it reasonable for them to just shrug and say "Sure, go ahead. Cut our sick leave in half. You deserve more profits, after all." And by the way, while unions are asking for 'outrageous' wage increases like 3%, executive pay went up another 13% last year. So all across the country companies and governments are trying to hold down worker pay increases, but the big shots are certainly not holding back their own pay increases. It's "Let the good times roll!" for them. You can be damned sure the CEO of Canada Post isn't worried about paying his bills. Recession, what recession?

Well not having half a brain I'm afraid the conclusions based on the use of one elude me.

I said a first class constable will make $91,000. You replied with "But they're not all first class constables! So your point is meaningless! So there!" No, it takes five whole years to become a first class constable. It is the standard rank for the police force. Of course, sergeants, detectives, etc, earn more. I'm sure you have a point somewhere. I just can't spot it. You haven't called me on a bloody thing. You've blustered and ranted and in the end it all boils down to you've watched cop shows all your life so as far as you're concerned the police deserve whatever they're paid and should be allowed to do whatever they want to do. Don't recall any of those. I do recall a number of innocent people who had broken no laws being assaulted by police thugs, though, thugs who took off their name badges so they couldn't be identified. You know, people who really support law and order, like me, hold police to account for breaking the law.

I'm sure if you ask them Canada Post will be pleased to hold your mail at the local office so you can go down and pick it up.

The fact is when you cut taxes "for all" the people who are most going to benefit are the rich. It's sure not going to benefit the poor, who don't pay federal taxes anyway. Another fact is that Clinton had a balanced budget, and then Bush got in and ran huge deficit after huge deficit, ignored the responsibilities of the state to monitor and control the financial sector, and ran your economy into the ground. I'm beginning to think the problem in America is there aren't any conservatives. Bush certainly wasn't one. You guys think all it means to be a conservative is to want to ban abortions and gays, have prayer in the classroom and go to sleep with your gun every night. There don't seem to be any fiscal conservatives left in your supposedly conservative Republican Party, just spendthrifts who suck up to the religious right.

There are community college courses in policing which run a year, but they're not mandatory. The police training itself is from 12-24 weeks, depending on province. Hairdressers training is 45 weeks! Want to be a massage therapist? That's 3 full years. Based on the behaviour of the police in Toronto you might be better off with the mailmen.