FastNed

Hello Synon, welcome to the Forum. You are correct that neither Clinton or Bush is to "blame" for 9.11. I believe the judgment of history will be that Clinton was elected 'over' his abilities. In one respect, it's a surprise that he failled at Foreign Relations since he was a Fulbright Scholar at Oxford but Sen. Fulbright was quite liberal so it's not too earthshaking that Slick Willie echoed his political views. If there is any inditement, perhaps it is of liberal views in a 'RealPolitic' World. But no doubt we differ in our opinions on that. I find your economic anasysis rather facile - Bush acheived very little in the economic area in his first ten months, prior to 9.11 and it is only recently that 'his' policies have been in effect. Candidly, I think any President is a "Fall Guy" for the economy and suspect that the economy has a life outside the control of the political arena. The bottom fifty percent of the theoretical tax paying residents of America pay no taxes - students are normally in this group - so any tax cuts have to go to those who pay taxes. Unless, of course, this is all BS about fairness and is all about redistribution of wealth. The hungry and sick (you forgot the "Homeless") can not be feed or cured unless they are alive - you do remember that there are a few fanatics interested in killing us, don't you? We should be so lucky that it only costs us 87 Billion to kill a few more terrorists in Iraq - better there than here. And besides, isn't 87 Bil about the average "Pork" budget for each of our Senators, whatever the Party?

Watch my lips and listen carefully - world opinion and a buck will buy you a cup of coffee! Quote all the headlines from the liberal media - make a wish list of all the Indymedia Leftist tirades - chant your anti-American mantra until you are blue in the face but remember this: We could care less!" There is no "Get home free Card" for killing Americans. You can run but you can't hide, we will never forgive and never forget. On 9.11 all other agendas ceased. They are of no import. Those who elected to sneak into our home and kill our women and children are learning a lesson in the "Law of the Jungle." They do p1ss poorly at that as in everything else. And when forced to descend to that level, Americans exceed at that as they do in just about everything else. Chant your mantras and inanities - we'll just pat you in the head as we go by on our serious business.

There are few places where rational discourse is practiced and, for the most part, this Forum is a premiere example of what is possible when a catholic discourse is encouraged. International and intergenerational sites are few and far between and very few survive the test of time. That survival comes from cooperation; a willingness to abide by the rules of the Forum and discipline among the posters encouraged by a fair moderator. Greg performs his role quite well and none of us, no matter how long in residence on this Forum have been exempted from his criticism when warranted. Of late, perhaps coincidentally timed to the opening of school, there has been an influx of new members - that is to be desired. None of us are immune from bias or preconceived opinions and new viewpoints can only add to the breadth of our discussions. But please, our discourse is not simplistic and mere repetition of a single note does not a symphony make! Ignorant flame posts are immediately reported to our moderator for deletion and, if appropriate, he will exercise his authority to bar the offender(s) from this Forum.

Anti-Americanism is driven and fueled by envy, spite and basically a lack of the talent to survive and compete in the modern world which is led by America. They rail over decades old acts like the muslims rail against the Mongols for the sack of Baghdad in 1258; like them, they keep looking back attempting to find some historic period during which what they represent was important. They chant their pathetic mantra convinced that if they say it long enough and loud enough someone might believe them. Or perhaps, it is to drown out that faint voice of reason which on rare occasion presents itself in their dim minds. It is both easy and obvious for little people to hate a leader for he leads while they bring up the rear, and fall further and further behind. Of course, they attempt to stab him in the back - for obvious reasons! It is the only part of him they will ever have an opportunity to reach. America is moving faster, climbing new heights, reaching for the heavens while they wallow in the mud made by their tears of inadequacy and frustration. And you hate us the most because we overlook your incompetence and inability to compete - because we pity you.

A report in the National Post published on 9/11 has Canada "fading off the map of the world" Referencing a TV Documentary "Foreign Fields: Canada's Role in the World" scheduled for broadcast on that date, it quotes a variety of the participants of the status of Canada. Stephen Lewis, acknowledged as a leading Canadian International figure and a special UN envoy is quoted on Canada's role in the World: "We are not the factor we once were. As a matter of fact, in some places, we are not a factor at all." Internationally acclaimed Canadian scholar Michael Ignatieff has hammered his home country repeatedly in recent months for its muddled response to Sept. 11, 2001, and its waning commitment to foreign aid. The shoddy state of Canada's military has also been widely lamented for several years. And Carleton University professor Andrew Cohen has published a scathing critique of the country's shrinking role on the world stage, with the sobering title "While Canada Slept: How We Lost Our Place in the World." Mr. Ignatieff also commented: ""There's a very bad fit between our self-image and what we actually deliver," he contends. "We think we're better peacekeepers than we are. We think we're better at development assistance and helping poor countries than we are. And we think we're innocent. We think nobody would possibly hate or want to kill a Canadian. "On all three grounds we've got to wake up." What do you think - is Canada going, going, gone....... //NOTE: I posted this as a new post "Alas, Canada" but then decided it belonged under this existing thread//

This posting moved to existing thread "How Bad is the Nation of Canada"

Nova, your snide comments are becoming very, very irritating. You have no idea of the identity of people posting here; you lack knowledge about their education, their life experiences and you are very quick to make judgments. No one is posting their c.v., I.Q., titles, honors, net worth and so forth. Those who post here are measured by the quality and content of their posts - and I suspect none of us would wish it any other way.

daniel, you have stated a fact - I suspect the true figure, fully allocated, to be closer to two billion but what's a billion or two mean these days. But what is your point? The subject is: "Can Bush be beaten" - how do you relate your statement to the subject of this thread?

Hello, Black Dog - you made a comment about "lust for blood" which prompted my comment about a "blood libel". I freely admit that I may have misconstrued the basis of your comment and if I did so, I apologise! I had just come from reading translated arabic hate sermons and my mind-set was in that area so you can understand how I made that sort of error. When you state, as you did, that corporate interests drove our actions in Iraq, you are repeating Marxist drivel - even if you have never read Marx. The literature of the left is so infested with these ideas you no longer have to read Marx in the original. We have a basic disconnect between us - I maintain that the motivation for the terrorist attacks against us is no more than their hate for our culture and way of life. They have said so. You, however, add to this your litany of every perceived American wrong of these last fifty years. I believe you are allowing your opinion of our actions to be projected upon those who are our enemies.

Hi Lost, and hello daniel - welcome to the Forum. There has been a literal explosion in human knowledge these last hundred years and perhaps we are merely beginning to scratch the surface of the unknown. What strikes me is that if we examine the thoughts of early philosophers, it's doubtful if mankind is more intelligent now rather then in the past, we just have a greater knowledge base. An area(s) where we have not discovered much is that of Solar flares, Solar winds, gravitational fields (Lunar effects) and electromagnetic fields and the causal interrelationship between these forces (identical/different?) and our weather and, in fact human actions. Ask anyone who has worked in the liquor industry, law enforcement or medicine about the relationship between a full moon and nutty actions and brace yourself for an earful. There are a number of weird correlations shown between sun spot/Solar flares and human activity; these may be statistical oddities but they repeat with predictable frequency so we may be more subject to electromagnetic (gravitational?) fields than we can explain at this time. Weather is one of the areas that appears in this category - statistical anomaly or unknown solar effects? We simply don't know the answers yet. Considering the scale involved and the relative insignificance of man, I suspect the Sun has more to do with our global climate than we. And then we come to that political concept of "sustainability". It's very much a "First World" concept because until your civilization reaches a point where survival is no longer a question, you lack the leisure and the luxury to play with such a concept. In much of Asia and just about all of Africa, survival is the primary problem; when you spend 12 hours a day fighting nature to raise the food needed for survival of your family, 'sustainable' agriculture or 'save the rain forest' are not concepts which you have the leisure to consider. Fish stocks are disappearing, perhaps from the actions of man - but not quite in the manner promoted in the popular press. Fact: anti-fur movements have stopped or greatly reduced the harvesting or 'slaughter' of seals (baby or otherwise). The seals are an essential element of the life cycle of the parasitic worm which infests the cod and pollack (and perhaps others) and the explosion in the seal population brought with it an explosion of the parasitic population. How much of the depletion in our fish stock comes from over-harvesting and how much from parasitic infestation? We don't know the answer! I am not speaking of salt water when I state that most of the water in the world is unfit for human consumption. While e.coli is an significant problem, parasitic entities blind, cripple or kill far more people in the First World than all the infections flowing from our water taps. For a fraction of what is spent on 'political' programs, clean drinkable water could be provided to most of the population of the world. Electricity, yes indeed, let's talk about electricity! All of the proposed alternative generation bright ideas appear to forget a basic fact - it has to be there when you flip the switch! A zillion wind generators or solar collectors do not solve one basic problem - the wind doesn't blow (except from politicians) and the sun doesn't shine at our command. When that problem is solved (generation on demand) let's talk - and, oh yes, please advise how we are to solve the NIMBY problem: "You are not going to put those ugly towers and transmission lines in MY neighborhood!" I acknowledge the problems but I've yet to hear workable solutions to them.

Hello Cameron, welcome to the Forum. I wonder though, about the assumptions you make on embedded journalism. Have you considered the possibility that the coverage which offended you was deliberate? That this was an attempt to show the reality of War? That the journalist presented the camera coverage in this manner to make it clear that this was not a sporting contest, not some football or soccer match - that it was about death, not scores? From the strength and passion of your response, I'd say it was very effective coverage. Your comments about politics are a concern, are you that naif? Patriotism is not politics and there are members of both political parties who support or oppose the current War against terrorists. The labels "Democrat" and "Republican" are inappropriate in this context. You state: "or, we can just liquidate the US all together and live in a somewhat state of peace " There are just a few problems with your point of view: an attempt to begin this liquidation began on 9 - 11, many of us take exception, violent exception to being liquidated - it's not going to happen. Exactly how is anyone going to live in peace without America? Every time we attempt to turn our back on the world and mind our own business, every attempt to quit as "Sheriff" for the world fails because we then have every whimp banging on our doors insisting that only 'we' can solve their problem. I know, the UN will take over from us. Setting the Fox to guard the Chicken Coop has proven to be somewhat of a failure but hope springs eternal.....

Obviously, Nova, you are truly blissful!

Nova, if you had completed your education and exited to the real world and still held these views, I would not spend any more time attempting to broaden your viewpoint. I still have hope that you can be changed from a victim into a survivor. Be it two people, two nations or two ideologies, there is a line which can not be crossed if matters are to remain civilized between them. If, as and when that line is crossed, civilized conduct ends. It must because a civilized response is not a shield against the law of the jungle. A rabid animal is not stopped by civilized discourse. When faced with the unthinkable, all possible responses must be considered. " The real power of Islamic jihad lies not in its destructive means, as some have mistakenly held, but in the bottomless depth of its hatred, its total indifference to any known historical standard of decency which makes anyone who would confront it descend into the very pit of Hell. The necromancers of Islam have unleashed a dark spirit upon the world and we must struggle to contain it without becoming infected by its malice." "One obvious option would be a full retaliatory extermination -- killing every known Muslim on the planet -- a billion deaths -- as a comprehensive response to nuclear jihad." "What are we to make of a pressing contingency whose only apparent solutions would make Hitler proud? The urge to look away from these ugly thoughts is overwhelming, until we realize that the enemy has compelled us to consider them or die." These are quotes from an article " The Unthinkable" at Belmontclub (Scroll down)

What we may or may not have done in the past is no longer germane, Nova - discussion, debate, compromise all ended on 9 - 11. 9 - 11 was the commencement of unrestricted warfare against America - that is the only issue remaining.

On another thread, I expressed the opinion that should a decision be made that all of Islam is our enemy not just a few fanatics among them, the last fall back position of America would be a genocidal response. I had an internal debate over the use of "Crusade" or "Genocide" and decided that crusade was the more evil concept so I used genocide. There is no doubt in my mind that America was the victim of a genocidal attack, this is self-evident from statements from those who made it. Complaints have been made that my use of "Genocide" constitutes "Hate Speech" and my question for the forum is this: Must the victim of a hate crime and genocidal attack be silent, must their words pass tests for political correctness or does a victim have wide latitude in allowable response?

We, America, are at war with Islamic Fanatics who have stated their intent is to destroy America and American culture. Kindly correct me if I am in error but they have given America three options: (1) Convert to Islam; (2) Submit to Islam as slaves; or, (3) Die. In my opinion, their actions and intent clearly meet the definition of genocide, in fact and in law. Should we fail to send them Home for an attitude adjustment, or should other followers of Islam not control them, America's last option for dealing with these fanatics can only be described and/or expressed as one of two concepts: a "crusade" or "reciprocal genocide". America is the victim of a "Hate Crime" of historic magnitude and I must admit I am beginning to feel like a "Jew" - you know, that group of victims who are blamed for the evils done to them! Of late, when I run across a piece of anti-Semitic garbage, I play a little game and substitute "American" for "Jew" and guess what, the text scans. Odd that, but the speakers are the same and, as always it is the victims who are at fault! This has greatly increased my empathy for those of the Jewish faith. Hate crimes engender "Hate" and while I believed I had a sufficient vocabulary, I do not appear to have the words to properly describe a response to a "Hate" attack without those words being castigated also , merely by their usage, as hate speech. In my opinion, the concept of a "Crusade" contains far more evil than the concept of genocide but perhaps I see a difference which does not exist. Perhaps the question should be what words are allowed to the victim of a "Hate" crime? Riddle me that, please, Greg. Black Dog, your post appears to say that fanatics are free to do anything they wish so long as it is to an 800 LB gorilla. And yet again, you prattle marxist doctrine on capitalism as justification for our "victimhood". Your comments on "lust for blood" appear to be nothing more than the old blood libel against the Jews, why am I still not surprised.

RB, let me be candid - I'm more lost after reading your post than before! I can not make sense of it but, let's just say its me. On that presumption, "dumb" down what you are saying please. What strikes me from reading on this subject is that if the "Green" theories were instituted, we would bring on a Malthusian catastrophe - or so it appears to me. Could you explain why this would not be the result?

Nova, perhaps you should consider this: "There is a time in every man's education when he arrives at the conviction that envy is ignorance; that imitation is suicide; that he must take himself for better for worse as his portion . . . It is the harder because you will always find those who think they know what is your duty better than you know it. It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own; but the great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." R.W. Emerson

Well said, Hugo! Freedom will never vanish so long as there are British Patriots who stand with us. "From this day to the ending of the world, But we in it shall be remember'd; We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile, This day shall gentle his condition: And gentlemen in England now a-bed Shall think themselves accursed they were not here, And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."

Rather than respond individually, let me respond to a fallacy that many are following in their posts. Many of you have an absolute misunderstanding of the strategic posture of America, and of many other Countries involved in this North Korean problem. China, Russia, Japan, South Korea and most of the Far East are terrified that America will take one specific action: that America will remove its 40,000 troops for use in another Theater and advise that this is a Regional Problem which they must settle among themselves! Why do you think those Countries are sleepless over this possible response by America?

Nova, you said: That is exactly what I did Not say! Bluntly, the American Jury is still undecided on the question. By our words and deeds to date, it should be obvious that we are waiting further evidence before we make a judgment. But your claims that the problem is only the followers of Wahhab is obviously false. Do you claim that the Shii'a sect of Iran follow Wahhab? Islamic Terrorism flows from a larger base than the Wahhabbi's! Islamic Fanatics choose to revert to the Law of the Jungle - they evidently believed that we were too effete and civilized to respond, like to like. That was a fatal mistake. We Americans are the oldest revolutionary movement in existence - we predate Marx, Lenin, Che and all the other so-called "Revolutionary Heros". We are the "Freedom Movement", we are the future and we will not be denied!

Is there any doubt that Americans will not offer their throats for halal? Is there any doubt that Americans will not go quietly into the night? The 'choice' offered to Americans by these Islamic fanatics is: Convert to Islam; submit as our slaves; or, die. Is there any doubt that Americans will choose "none of the above". We will live free or die. Once again, you display your prejudice. Not one word concerning those who elected unrestricted warfare with terms only of unconditional surrender. Why am I not surprised that no mention is made of their intent to commit genocide upon Americans but, horrors - you Americans will return genocide for genocide, if that be necessary for your survival. Get real, this is no fairy tale or Ivy Tower exercise, this is the real world. What these delusional fanatics failed to consider is that we might be more able than they to apply the law of the jungle. If you call the tune, you pay the piper!

Nova, attempting to get this 'new' idea into your head is like attempting to get a 20 lb load in a 10 lb sack! There are dead all over the World, it is a condition of life that it ends in death. You make no claim that the deaths in Kashmir or, as you so poetically call it, "the comming hand of Death in Africa" have any connection to America or American Patriotism - so what relevance do these have to the subject of this post? It is your contention that "You arrogant Americans think that a American life is worth more an any other nationality." and that "American policy treats all non-americans as subhumans.". What a bag of garbage!!!!! I made no such statements and I will not let you attempt to put such words in my mouth without challenge. Your overstatements are absurd, to put it politely and if you truly believe these statements, you have a problem with reality. What I said was: "what is critical is how important it is to us". After 9 - 11, I have a better understanding of the feelings of an Indian after an attack from Pakistan; the feelings of an Israeli after an attack from a Syrian sponsored terrorist group. After the experience of such an attack, after experiencing the renewal of faded patriotic feelings, I found myself better able to comprehend the feelings of others who had shared (if that is the term) such sneak attacks. I may be ignorant - I admit there is much I do not know and regret that I am not better educated than I allowed myself to be - I regret all those opportunities I ignored over so many years when other matters were more important to me. But I do not have your arrogance, I do not castigate all members of any country as believing their lives are worth more than any others or that they believe all others are sub-human. Your comments are unworthy of this Forum.

Hi RB, as I look as this concept of subsidies for subsistence farmers about the World, I get quite confused. It seems to me that there isn't enough money in the World to accomplish this. It looks very much like economic slavery! This appears to be a "Green" concept and to put it in harsh terms, looks NIMBY to me. Keep things nice here and export the sewage to poorer countries. "Sustainable agriculture" appears to be the buzz word but the concept, in real terms, means that the poor are locked into a subsistence existence spending a dozen hours a day in backbreaking labor merely to exist in abject poverty. Those who are "pure" wish GM crops and yellow rice banned and damn all those who starve to death, their place in life is to know their place! From all I can read and see, these "Green" concepts were devised in an Ivory Tower somewhere and are a luxury only the rich (and well fed) can support and afford. I'm uneducated in these areas as you can conclude from this post - what can you add to my education which would convince me that your position is justified?

Nova, I don't know if you can understand what is involved here but let me attempt a different approach. Let's make it personal between you and I! Serious difference exist between us over religion, culture and politics. So long as we continue to discuss this between ourselves, there exists the possibility that one or the other of us will change our views, modify our actions or in some way mitigate the contentions between us. And then you make a fatal mistake! You sneak into my home and kill my women and children. With this act, you have ended all discourse between us. You have eliminated any possibility of resolution of our differences. You have established that the only law between us is the law of the jungle and the survival of the fittest. You have crossed a forbidden line. You chose the rules of this warfare, that there are no innocents - no non-combatants - you selected unrestricted total warfare. Only the death of Nova or FastNed ends this conflict. You decided to call the tune, now you must pay the piper! Does this personal approach increase your understanding of the reality which underlies the actions of America? You state: Tell that to Hitler and every other madman who began unrestricted warfare. If we are forced to conclude that our "enemy" is every believer in Islam, then so be it. Before we give our throats to halal, before we go quietly into the night, we will give a new breadth and depth to the concept of genocide. They selected unrestricted warfare and the law of the jungle - did they believe that only they could make war on these terms? In our restraint, they saw weakness. In our desire to live in peace, they thought us vulnerable. In our desire to be civilized, they saw us as sacrifices to their sick concept of religion. They could not be more wrong. Genocide is our last defense and we will not like what we become should we be forced to use it but make no mistake, they choose the law of the jungle. They will die with it.