FastNed

I think the diference in the viewpoints expressed by SirRiff and Craig are based upon the view from where they are standing and what they see. Politically, Craig is rather correct. The present government of Canada is close to Third World status; the Ottawa Tribe has all the levers of power firmly in hand, the system is jiggered so they can not loose political control and they are adept enough at what they do that the average Canadian does not notice the errosion of their personal freedoms. SirRiff, from his position sees that the quality of life in Canada (as in all of North America) is pretty damn good compared to the remainder of the world. The average Canadian has a fairly decent life and is concentrating on his life, his family and his future. Like his American Cousins (until the 9 - 11 awakening) politics and the political control of the Country is not something much thought about until election time - and except for the "political junkies", even then its no big deal. What is not seen is that a generation or two down the road, Canada will find itself in the present situation of "Old Europe". Destitute!

Hello Vancouvergal. You are correct that this is a great forum and the discussions do get heated but generally do stay well within polite bounds. And on the rare occasion we do begin to slip, Greg will chime in as Administrator and remind us that we are attempting to engage in civilized debate. Before you form a harsh opinion of Craig, note that he has been under incoming fire for some time as "pro-American" and like anyone in that position, he shoots back. This thread began around a discussion of Canadian Culture - does one exist other than "Anything but American"? What is your view?

Hi Ronda - Kyoto is a sham and a fraud. First, those of the Third World, the largest sources of pollution are exempt and to add insult to injury, the can sell "Pollution Credits" which are based upon their measured pollution (which they can continue to generate). Second, the NGO's, the UN people and several EU Governments played with the "Base Year" so that much of the EU is either exempt or has minimal standards to meet. Kyoto is aimed at North America, mainly the US but Canada was also a target. The Treaty is a "two-fer; if adopted,it would transfer very large amounts of money from "wealthy" North America to the Third World and as a bonus, it would make North America non-competative with the EU providing them with substantial cost advantages for their export trade. The purpose of Kyoto has nothing to do with air quality and everything to do with European politics and exports. The only real question remaining is how long Canada will shoot itself in the foot before it wakes up and discovers it has priced itself out of the market. And SirRiff, these are the same people who have banned crops from modified seeds, again to protect their farmers and their export markets.

Point well made, Mod! I just couldn't resist an opportunity to zing the great "French" Leader of Canada - the devil made me do it! I do not question or doubt the basic friendship that exists between our peoples, nor that when the cards are down each of us would be there for the other. If these %$#*& politicians would go get an honest job and learn to work for a living as the rest of us must do, matters would be a great deal better for all of us.

How does one say: "eat humble pie" in French? It appears that M. Chretien must eat this dish quickly as events force him to request assistance from those "American B@stards". Ontario Public Health Officials have requested assistance from the US CDC in Atlanta; the SARS situation in Toronto has the potential for a National Emergency. Wisely, Ontario is seeking help before this becomes a National disaster. While teams are being constructed and resources gathered to be sent North, the CDC has been required to advise Toronto & Ontario that a response outside the US requires an Official request from the National Government. A "Pro Forma" request is needed to comply with American Law. Now, M. Chretien must call Amb. Cellucci and formally request assistance! There is no question it will be granted, indeed, I suspect the American CDC Team wil be in place long before the paperwork is filed. If you are American, when a friend asks for help, you give it.

Hello Lost - glad the points you're raising are rhetorical, not personal. Now about those poor huddled masses in America. The economic "poor" are a constantly changing population in flux. Statistically, many of them are young adults just starting out while others are there due to sudden adverse changes in their lives. There appears to be a three to five year cycle in effect with this group and the majority move out and up within that period. Of those that don't, the cynic in me says that some people are born loosers while the optomist insists we must do more. But there are a vast number of people and organizations focused on these people and solutions do not appear to come from the amount of money involved. A substantial number of these people have been failed by our educational system and the remedy to this type of poverty appears to be education and the time involved to escape poverty equates to the learning curve. What has happened to education in both of our Countries? Of those that are left "huddled" under the overpass, the majority are either the mentally ill or addicts, of one flavor or another. The situation with those having a mental illness is a real catch-22; they can not be institutionalized and forced to take medication which controls or alleviates their problem as the ACLU and others have litigated that this type of treatment violates their "Civil Rights". Outpatient programs which spend 60,000 to 80,000 per year, per individual have been a failure because of this "forced medication" issue. No one has a solution, do you? As to the addicts, after ten years of voluntary work, I can state that there is NO program or approach which works consistently with more than fifteen or twenty percent of this population and of those that get clean, the same small percentage stays that way. So long term (three to five years), the success rate is at best about four percent. Again, no one has found a solution. Now as to these being a problem of "capitalism", I suggest you look at the alcohol and (now) drug problems of the former Soviet Union and present day Russia. These problems appear to be part of the human condition, not of our economic systems.

Say Lost, I hope you are not talking about your own life but if any part of that is personal, screw the government, contact the nearest Church or two or three and tell them you need help. Or your children need help! Both of our countries have a vast number of people willing to help someone having a bad spell and don't need government permission to give it.

Bill, I was responding to Moderate and somehow had a "senior" moment and typed in "Bill" instead - my bad. Sorry, inadvertent slip of the tongue !

Bill, to put it politely, No, Craig's statements can't be equally applied to the States. Not hardly. Cowardly & Free loading - that's really your opinion of our people in Iraq? Hypocrits - Really, we just ceased the major portion of combat ops the other day and we have pacification, terrorist and civilian security issues on the table which have a higher priority than finding where the WMD are located. Iraq is the size of California +/or B.C. - but if we have to dig it up foot by foot, we'll find where they are stashed. Racist - yup, everyone has seen the pictures of those poor, emaciated, undernurished & underarmed Black Marines serving in Iraq but excuse me if I duck for cover when you tell them that. We have our problems, Bill, but we are damned candid about them - would that Canada was as forthright! Perhaps you should just change the name to "French Canada". Would the last Canadian to leave Canada turn out the lights on the French Canadians, please!

Hi Rita, the failure of the US in matters such as this, the ICC and Kyoto is that we have not properly explained to the World that it is impossible for us to accept or ratify them if they are in conflict with our Constitution. When we say our Constitution is the "Law of the Land" that is not some PR statement but a basic fact. If there are provisions in such treaties or pacts which conflict with the Constitution, they can not and will not be adopted by the Senate and if they made the mistake of doing so, their action would be null and void. No President be he a Clinton or a Bush can act to make these the law of the land - again, the action would be null and void. Changing our Constitution requires a long complex process, deliberately so . Such changes must be passed by two successive Congresses and then ratified by 2/3rds of the States within a seven year period.The limited number of changes in that document since its adoption are clear evidence of the difficulty of any change. We don't explain this well enough to people which leads to a great deal of misunderstanding.

WetCoast, if you believe I am making threats, then I lack the eloquence of my convictions. There has been a sea change in this World; some will sink in it, some will swim or tread water and some will find they rise with it. That is reality, not a threat. I do not believe the survival of America has been in this much doubt since the Revolutionary War. Our enemy are religious fanatics scattered and sheltered among several dozen Arab Countries and quite simply, can you tell me how one fights a religious war? Or more to the point, how does one do so without it becoming a Crusade with all the implications of the extinction of a Religion? Odd, isn't it, that we Christians who believe that His Kingdom is not of this World are face to face with a Warrior Religion, a religion of conquest and subjugation which believes that success will bring their version of His Kingdom to exist in the here and now. And the choices we see available to us are die, submit and convert or change the equation - change the Arab World and offer a better future not based upon this particular religious world view. (And perhaps we pray that a Luther is sent to them.) For the fifty years of the cold war, we took allies where we found them; fifty years of different politicians making deal after deal, sometimes with people that disgusted us and there were mistakes made. Some very bad mistakes and in retrospect, it would have been better had we never been involved with these people and there were politicians we never should have elected and policies we never should have implimented. Perhaps that is a hidden price of democracy but all we can do now is learn from our errors and do better in the future. Adults have learned that you can not dwell in the past or wish yourself into the future, you can only live each day as it comes. Those who oppose us because of the past do not understand the reality of the present. We are fighting for our right to exist, to live free, to continue our revolution begun on this continent several hundred years ago. Call it serendipidity, call it the Law of Unintended Consequences but 9 - 11 awoke the American People; it sent us back to our revolutionary roots and provided a bitter lesson that survival of our way of life and our Nation required of us, as of our founders, that we pledge our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor to our vision of America. We are determined that America will survive, that we will prevail and that America shall continue to be the beacon of freedom within this world. It is not a pledge to be taken lightly or passed over as politics as usual. Those that mistake this will pay a price for it, perhaps a very heavy price. Some people can live a lifetime and never reach a moment when they have to stand and be counted. For some, that moment comes and they never realise it and their choice is made by default. But when that moment comes, a choice must be made. On 9 - 11, a finger of fire wrote "Mene Mene Tekel Upharsen" in the sky above America and Americans have made their choice, they have risen to the call. Now the rest of the World must choose if they are part of the solution or part of the problem. How will Canadians choose?

Parts of both of my beat-up vehicles are made in Canada - I don't have a problem with that, at all. Personally, I feel like a chicken wishbone split between my Canadian heritage and family and my American birth. The point I am attempting to make is that it has come to this: It is time for Canadians make a choice, to continue to define themselves as "anything but American", to continue to be represented by the likes of Parrish & Chretien who exult in their anti-americanism and to decide with whom they shall stand to be counted. For America, the world changed on 9 - 11 and it is no longer business as usual. Canada no longer has the luxury of being Anti-American without cost. And the cost will be high - do not be deluded to think that America will not pay it. Immediately after 9 - 11, Canadian politicians had a choice - to be inside or outside the North American Defense Perimiter. They chose to be excluded and now crossings in Quebec and other places are being closed and barbed wire is being strung. Canada's choice, as was their right as a free Nation and one we do not begrudge no matter how short-sighted we happen to believe it to be. A very good illustration of the cost which must be paid for decisions. One follows the other and we can live with it, can you? It's time to stand and be counted. If you wish to play in the game of life, you have to chose a side. It is becoming quite obvious which side your politicians have selected and if that's not the choice of Canadians, you had best speak up quickly and loudly . Absent evidence to the contrary, we can only conclude your politicians speak for you. And Canadians will live with the consequences.

You normally assume that a Free World Government relects the attitudes of its citizens and by that measurement, Canada is Anti-American. It did not make a great deal of difference up until 9 - 11. Until then, well, Canada was like the next door young neighbors - just a little jealous that were were better situated, had a bigger house and had life a little easier. But we believed that with a little NAFTA help, things would get better next door and as things improved, so would their attitude. But the World changed. After 9 - 11, President Bush stated quite clearly: "You are with us or with the Terrorists". It was a call to arms, a notification that a choice had to be made, that you would be part of the solution or part of the problem! Those leaders who were not fat, happy and stupid and/or Anti-American understood that the world had changed. And a number of those leaders realized (while it might sound trite) that America was the last best hope for a free world. They listened and came to understand what this attack upon us meant to Americans. And they made a choice - one that had highly significant costs because they understood that their choice might bar them from EU membership and NATO memership. A membership they desperately sought. But perhaps because they had been captive for so long, they understood that Freedom has a cost and so they chose to stand with America. Like Americans, they chose to pledge their lives, their fortune and their sacred honor to the cause of Freedom. And we welcome their presence by our side. They are honorable companions and brothers-in-arms. And as always, the Brit's and Aussies are there. Canadian Forces (a clearly endangered species) who belong there with them are absent because they do not have a government which stands for anything. And a government is a reflection of its people. When the new free trade pacts are written, and our allies need markets for their agriculture and forestry products, where do you think we are going to buy them?

Friendship, what friendship? For the last several decades, you've been electing politicians who snear at America and its people. Lately, our President is a "moron" and we, the American People, are a bunch of "B*stards". Did I miss something, is there a Charter provision somewhere that states Americans must continue to buy from or give preference to people who make a national cult of and take pride in being anti-American? There is no free lunch: many Canadians have been eating at the Anti-American Cafe for years and years. Well, guess what, the waiter is bringing the Bill and America is not going to pick up the Tab! If you think its bad now, wait until we begin Free Trade with "New Europe". Take a good look at what they produce and where they need help. Agriculture, forestry - do any of those areas sound familiar? Those people have made a choice to stand with us, no matter the cost. They understand, based upon bitter personal experience under the Soviet Yoke, that there comes a time when you must stand for principal or you stand for nothing. Does Canada stand for anything?