Bob

Nothing bone-headed about it, at all. Both peoples are failures and largely responsible for their own lot in life. Go move out of your home and give it to an Aboriginal, then we'll talk.

Yes, it is my subjective opinion that 55 Muslims majority states, of which 22(ish?) are Arab states is more than enough land for them. We've got one Jewish country, and the lands the "Palestinians" are claiming as their own include OUR OWN LAND. Moreover, they have proven for the past century that they oppose our very existence in what they perceive as their land. Many people would agree with this subjective evaluation. Sometimes things are defined subjectively/arbitrarily. This isn't science. Their national mission is the destruction of Israel, and this mission has not only been acted on and continues to be acted on (resulting in many wars and tens of thousands of murdered Jewish and other Israelis). They don't just talk about incessantly, they act upon it incessantly (facts you like to ignore, or obfuscate with hollow justifications). No reasonable person would think that giving these people increased autonomy on land adjacent to a people and country they wish to destroy is a good idea. Like I said earlier, we wouldn't release Paul Bernardo into freedom in our country, and the "Palestinians" are the collective version of Paul Bernardo. Just as an individual can forfeit any claim to freedom that he or she once had, so can a collective of people (or even and idea, ideology, or other movement). They can have all the self-determination they want, just not here.

It's not ridiculous, at all. Do Ontarians have a "right to self-determination" in Ontario? How about Albertans? What I'm saying, and it's indisputable, is that there are no meaningful differences between "Palestinians" and neighbouring Arab/Muslim countries. They have plenty of countries, as it is. They cannot build another one on top of ours.

It's funny seeing to the leftists on this board have their feathers ruffled in discontent as a politician expresses his disgust with communists. I fucking hate communists, so good for him. Communists and their socialist ilk should all be demeaned and disparaged at every turn for the scum that they are. Rats who resent success and lionize losers who want to live off of the backs of others.

You're absolutely right. And these "human rights commissions" and their associated "tribunals" are also anti-Christian. It's 100% minority-identity politics BULLSHIT. They should be abolished, and where's the Conservative Party on this one? Nowhere to be found... outside of a few hollow comments here and there.... I want to see Harper take a strong position on this and make real moves towards abolition of these kangaroo courts that censor free speech.

That's a cheap shot. English isn't his (or her?) first language. I am usually able to decipher the meaning of bjre's posts.

And moreover, their national mission is the destruction of Israel. Considering their raison d'etre is quite sick, they simply cannot be trusted with sovereignty on our doorstep.

I'm really surprised that you're joining in the fun in describing the IDF soldiers involved in the raid as murderers, while completely everything we've come to know about this IHH organization, and, particularly, the group of violent Muslims onboard the Mavi Marmara who got what they say they wanted. We should really just get down to the fundamentals - do you think the blockade against Gaza is unjust? We shouldn't waste time on details if your point of departure for entering this discussion is one that views the blockade as an ongoing crime that must be stopped.

What bigotry? I understand these Arabs/Muslims. You don't. By and large, they view Israel as a mistake that must be undone. And this perspective is widely held by "Western" Arabs/Muslims who have lived all or most of their lives in the West. The "Palestinians" are even worse than that. You think we're going to withdraw our presence from the disputed territories and grant even more opportunities to these people to wage campaigns of murders and terrorism against us? There were times in the past when the "Palestinians" could have had independence and their own state, but their own choices (which they continue to make today) prevented them from seizing what they claim to desire. I look at the "Palestinians" like the group version of a mass murderer. Would we release Paul Bernardo from prison as long as he "behaved" himself for awhile and make public proclamations of being reformed? No. Well, maybe leftists like you would advocate for such stupidity. The "Palestinians" are the collective version of this, where they have a track record of violence and hatred. That's their political/national/religious identity. The difference here is that the "Palestinians" don't renounce their previous actions, indeed, they glorify them and continue to perpetuate them in the name of glorious Jihad. Just as an individual can forfeit his/her rights to freedom by committing crimes and violating the freedoms of others, so can a collective of persons. I absolutely reject any notion of independence for these "Palestinians", especially on our doorstep. Would you release Paul Bernardo to buy a home and live in a community with young women? Solution? Removal of Arabs from Israel. They cannot coexist with us. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are thousands of good reasons within Israel (and tens of thousands of good reasons outside of Israel) for us not to trust them, and those reasons are all buried across the cemeteries of our land. Or, at a minimum, mass revocation of their citizenship in our country (with few exceptions).

Erdogan is continuing to appeal to the Islamists and their obedient leftist ilk (exhibit A - this thread) by portraying himself as the new Nasser. Typical Arab/Muslim bravado and machismo. We've seen this movie before.

"Arabs have a connection to the land"... what a joke. You mean how Islam is a cheap forgery, based on flawed plagiarism from Judaism? Like the story about Muhammad riding his horse to heaven from the Temple Mount? Or pretending hijacking the Tomb of the Patriarchs? Or how after centuries of living there, it was still a barren land until Jewish pioneers actually made the desert bloom? Give me break, Arabs/Muslims rewrite history in order to manufacture these "connections". You're proving my point, anyways, your grievance is with Israel's existence, period. Stop stop pretending to give a shit about nuances like your imaginary hardships that the Arabs in Israel endure under the yoke of Jewish discrimination (I guess that's why so many of these Arabs keep trying to get into Israel, applying for work and education and residency permits, right?).

As I've already said, we have more than enough countries with Arab/Muslim majorities. We don't need another. And we certainly can't have one at the expense of the only Jewish state. Moreover, the opportunities have been there in the past for these Arabs/Muslims to have their own state, but they refused - and they continue to refuse. With respect to the relationship between nationalism being dependent on important distinguishing criteria, the fact remains that there are more than enough places where these Arabs/Muslims can do whatever it is they want to do (cultural preservation?). They cannot do it on top of us. Lastly, spare me the amateur hour cultural anthropology lessons - the differences between Australians and Britons are real, whereas the differences between "Palestinians" and, say, Jordanians, are non-existent. bear in mind that 80% of Jordanians self-identify as "Palestinians". Look like they've already got their country, wouldn't you say (aside from the Hashemite monarchy, of course).

Why do these people deserve their own country?

Well, the primary reason we have the term "Israeli" is that there are non-Jewish people who live here with citizenship. Also, Israel is the only place where the overwhelming proportion of Jews speak Hebrew. So that separates Israeli from most other Jews in the diaspora. Moreover, the Israeli identity is real and unique, the "Palestinian" identity is fake, hollow, and just another cookie-cutter category of Arabs/Muslims. Like I said, they have more than enough land and countries as it is. But there is unification via our religion, history, and common purpose. The Israeli identity is at all at once diverse and unified (largely). We were there first. You're picking an arbitrary point in history as a starting point. Many centuries before there was any such thing as a Muslim, we were here. It belongs to us, and nobody else. I don't wish any ill towards Arabs/Muslims, but I'm not oblivious to the threat they pose to Israel's Jewish identity. Ideally, there were be no Arabs/Muslims in Israel.

Excuse me? The Israeli identity is real. I'm not going to comment on the other nationalisms because I really don't give a damn. "Palestinians" are Arabs/Muslims. Just like Lebanese, Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis, etc. As opposed to the Jewish identity, which is actually distinct from all the others. As far as the demographic breakdown of a particular point in history, who cares? Thank God today it's 80% Jewish, and hopefully that number will increase over time. The less Arabs in Israel, generally speaking, the better.

I didn't say that. What I'm saying is that the term "Palestinian" is quite meaningless. It's an attempt to distinguish these people from other Arabs/Muslims in the neighbourhood, when they're largely indistinguishable.

Beee-yooo-tiful. This comment made me laugh. Perfect.

The point was that THIS boycott was bigoted. And that point is correct.

Actually, "Palestinian" nationalism essentially began in the aftermath of the Six-Day War. Although lying filth like Edward Said (PbUH) would have us believe otherwise. Prior to that, it was a sort of Pan-Arabism (Islamism). Jewish nationalism certainly predates Zionism, although the most effective and prominent form of Jewish nationalism certainly arose to new heights with Herzl as a solution to persecution. This talk of "Palestinians" losing "their land" is absurd. There was never such a thing as a Palestinian people until a few decades ago (it's still a completely hollow identity used by people like yourself for political purposes). Like I said, "Palestinians" don't constitute a unique people or a unique collective identity - they are Arabs/Muslims, just like all the others. Beyond that, they certainly never had any sovereignty or statehood, and speak of "Palestine" as if it is some sort of lost country, destroyed by Zionism. The truth is, of course, entirely different - that there was never any such thing as a Palestinian people (there still isn't) and there was certainly never a state known as "Palestine" where they rules themselves. These conmversations always boil down to the same historical revisionism. Whether it's the Mavi Marmara, allegations of discrimination against Arabs in Israel, the conduct of the IDF with respect to terrorists, or anything else... the discussion always ends up here. Why do you pretend to care about these events when the foundation of all of your positions is this intention to reject the legitimacy of the Jewish national identity and our rights to independence and self-determination in OUR homeland? Forget all the details about the other complex issues (about which you know nothing that Wikipedia can't tell you), you reject Jewish nationalism at face value and see Israel as a mistake that should be undone. Israel, in your eyes, is a state born in sin that must be redeemed. So again, why waste time on the details when it's obvious that you reject Israel and Jewish national rights wholesale? I and others see right through you. You're not original. Indeed, you're actually quite typical and literally the prototypical dime-a-dozen anti-Israel leftist. Stop pretending to care about about "disadvantaged" Arabs in Israel when your real grievance is with Israel's existence. Yes, you've stated before that Israel "has a right" to exist (bravo?), but it's always in the context of Israel being a mistake that must now be dealt with rather than undone. If your entire premise when entering these discussions is of Israel's existence as an injustice to this imaginary people you refer to as the "Palestinians", then of course you're always going to take the predictably reflexive anti-Israel position on all issues, complete with your imaginary narratives and editorializing.

I told you, Israel should have ordered all persons on deck to lay down on their stomachs with their hands behind their backs, and to shot anyone who didn't comply (for humanitarian purposes, the initial shots perhaps should be fired at limbs, if possible). I am deadly serious about that. Leftist politics have also infected the IDF's command, where soldiers are placed in excessive danger in vain attempts to appease the likes of people like yourself who have warped and sick perspectives. The lives of the soldiers should be worth infinitely more than politics. And spare us your amateur-hour military recommendations. "Disabling the propellers", what are you Navy Seal/frogman, now? Who are you kidding? You know nothing about naval operations and abilities, so don't even go there.

They had knives and blunt instruments. Those can kill people. They avoided bringing a lot of more serious weaponry in order to avoid allegation of arms smuggling should they be inspected. How can you seriously be this stupid? Do the videos NOT show a violent mob preparing for their assault on the IDF prior to the engagement? Have you NOT seen the videos? You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth and tripping over your own contradictions - first you said something along the lines of the Jihadis understandably "defending" themselves (yeah, right!), and now you say that were ill-prepared and didn't intend to have a violent confrontation with the soldiers? Nobody can take you seriously, anymore. You're literally lying through your teeth with absurd suggestions that this agitators weren't planning on and didn't wish for violence. Despite the fact that most of us have seen the pre-engagement videos with these religious nutcases chanting "Allahu Akbhar" in their war prayers, and video testimonies on the ship prior to the events with these Jihadis openly declaring their wishes for martyrdom, you're still in here trying to sell us this shit about them being peaceful demonstrators who had their hands forced by the evil IDF.

Israel has released a lot of footage, and a lot of footage wasn't taken by the IDF, either. Plenty of video was uploaded by the agitators themselves. Go check out there YouTube channels. Rather than rewriting a new false narrative every time you engage in a discussion about these events in order to portray the IDF as evil and the Jihadis as peace-loving pacifists, just go check the videos. There are hundreds of them, almost exclusively from the videos of the Islamist filth themselves. It takes about two seconds to finds hundreds of these videos on YouTube and other video sharing sites. And guess what? All of the videos corroborate the narrative of these Islamists looking for confrontation and desiring martyrdom. I'm not going to waste my time posting the videos we should have all seen by now of the Jihadis doing a war prayer prior to these events, candidly speaking of their desires to die for "Palestine" and Islam, and then assaulting the IDF after their refusal to comply with reasonable (and certainly lawful) instructions to turn around and submit to inspection. They wanted confrontation and violence, and they got it.

Right, so "Palestinian" nationalism is entirely reactionary and virtually hollow. It begins and ends with "resistance" to the existence of Israel. All "Palestinian" nationalism is is anti-Zionism. They're Arabs. And they're overwhelmingly Muslim. And they're indistinguishable from their Arab/Muslim neighbours, aside from the fact that quite a few of them have a working knowledge of Hebrew. Like I said, we have enough Arab/Muslim countries, already - we certainly don't need another, and especially not at the expense of the only Jewish state. They can go build their country somewhere else, as they've already done plenty of sick shit to forfeit their "right" to live beside us independently.

What Israeli wrongdoings? You act as if Israel and "Palestine" are of equal moral fibre and share equal responsibility/guilt for the current conflict. Remember, there were also "two sides" to WWII, as well. Sure, Israel isn't flawless, but it's a lot closer to flawlessness than "Palestine". Just look at how we conduct ourselves, and look at how they conduct themselves. It'd help if you actually knew a thing or two about both societies, of course...

God, jacee is such a disgusting poster. As you've mentioned, as if children are somehow more valuable than adults. And more importantly, and illustrative of jacee's massive, shall we say, simple-mindedness, is his assertion that there were no children at the WTC. The sad thing is that jacee is actually VERY typical of early-twenties liberal arts students in Canada. You have no idea how many people like him/her I met in university. Shockingly ignorant and VERY ideological (anti-West, anti-wealth, false perceptions of "oppressed peoples", illusions of environmental crises, etc). He/she is a symptom of our diseased educational system.