Shwa

If there are other options to cuts, then why are cuts the only option you are offering? That doesn't make sense. Surely there are ways to raise 10 billion other than cuts to government services. For instance, have a shame tax on all the crappy products purchased at Walmart. Say a dollar per item added. That should raise enough every year no problem. Or have a fat-person tax where anyone overweight has to pay a buck for every pound they are overweight. Really, if there is GW it is likely fat people's fault for all the extra stuff they have consumed and the energy it took to produce it. They should know better and now they should pay. Heck I am in for 20 right now! BTW - when I saw 'fat people' this doesn't include people with glandular problems. Just so we are clear.

Interesting. But wouldn't the "reverse situation" be if a Muslim teacher were harassed by Jewish students?

No. They were two news reports that remained "local." One with a white perpetrator and hispanic/white victims and one with several blacks and a white victim. Equal results. No bias. Cop out. "Typical Media anti White Bias" I don't see any qualifications for "media" as anything less than universal even though the discussion has been limited to US and Canadian examples. We haven't even touched on the so-called misogynist hate crime claims in honour killings in some religions that are reported in the media. However, if you would like to reframe your position, please feel free. The information all came from the media - news media to be exact - in news articles a al "newsworthy" subject matter. Whether you agree what should/could/how/what is of no consequence and is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the reporting of hate crimes in the media. No conjecture here, I supplied the links to the news stories. These are called 'counterexamples.' + So you have conveniently reduce "two women" in a "school yard while classes are getting let out" to "someone" and "getting punched." Nice example of the reductionist fallacy to water down the details to draw a general conclusion about something completely different. Come off it, you can do better than that. You are correct here. The ones that include a victim(s) and a perpetrator(s). Otherwise, you haven't convinced me of any anti-white bias in the media when it comes to reporting of hate crimes - "universality" or not.

Well, before we go on, what are your apprehensions? Do you disagree that information can be obtained from the structure of the story as well as it's content?

You wrote "nobody" would take it seriously. That is your assertion, not mine. An assertion which you can't possibly know or predict. So it is poorly written. It would be a ridiculous assertion that "nobody would take it seriously" especially nowadays since hate crime allegations make stories more newsworthy. So if you would like to re-state, feel free. You are proposing that "the media would react" not I. This is the tactic of a conspiracy theorist kimmy. I am not going to acquiesce to be involved in your theories. I am merely saying that someone would react. In the case of the two lesbians in Oshawa, they asked their lawyer to look into hate charges. This was reported in the news and investigated by the police. It isn't such a stretch to presume that should two women get punched out in a schooyard and they make a hate crime complaint to their lawyer, that it wouldn't get reported in the news. You say yourself that hate crimes make for newsworthiness. BTW - two women getting punched out in a school yard while classes are getting let out is hardly "routine battery." Well, at least not in this part of the country, I can't answer for yours. Like Donald Napierala, who is white and admitted to hate crime charges against a "mixed-race" couple, one of who is white. No outrageous national media coverage of note. Editors had made their choices. How about the MAX train black-on-white hate crime assault in Portland? Highly publicized apparently. Editors made their choices. Of course, you are familiar with both of these stories right?

No shark jumping, but some copping out I see.: You say that "If the media reported incidents of chick-battery as "hate crimes", even if the victim claimed "extreme misogyny!", nobody would take it seriously." I am saying: It would be taken seriously especially in light of the Ecole Polytechnique massacre in our collective memory. Perhaps it would be more correct to say that you wouldn't take it seriously? And again, you ignored the point about this being a white-on-white crime of hate. The hate angle was widely reported in the news. Where is the "typical anti-White bias" in the Ecole Polytechnique hate crime news reports? There isn't any. Kimmy, you haven't proven to me that there is any anti-white bias in the media to any convincing degree. The difficulty of proving such a position is that you face the dilemma of the conspiracy theorist. You might be able to pick a story here and there to support your case, but that only proves that a writer or an editor 'here or there' has an anti-white bias, not "the media" - which is a very large and varied entity. Thus I now agree the the discussion has jumped the shark.

Quite the opposite. I am citing Bugs and Bizarro in response to your post which, in my estimation is more cartoon-like "fantasy fiction" than anything resembling coherent reality. By saying that things "could be worse" is a direct denial of how bad things have been and, in some communities still, how bad they are today. You are glossing over the reality and, in my definition, that is propaganda - whether it is intentional or not. Do you mean the sorts of field reports, statistics and policy papers from, say, a large federal department in Ottawa whose mandate is to manage Indian and Northern Affairs? Lucky me. When I worked there for 7 years indeed I did have more "realistic reading." They have a very extensive library and archives. When was the last time you read the Report from the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples? Never? That's right, you have a couple of Indian friends who let you know what is up. Here is a quote from the highlight paper prepared from the Report: {emphasis is mine}So the 1996 reality here is that it is "worse." If you want a decent historical survey on that very point, read 'Fair Country' by John Ralston-Saul. It is in your local Chapters bookstore. You say that things could be worse and then come up with some weird comparison using Cortes. This is the 'benevolence versus brutality' debate that comes up all the time in Canadian Native studies. Mexico - 90% of the 111 million people are of Native ancestry. Indigenous languages are protected and some Indigenous groups have a cirect measure of self-determination. Ecuador - 90% of the some 15 million people is of Native ancestry and Peru - 82% of the some 20 million inhabitants are of Native ancestry. Quechua is spoken by some 15% of the population as their mother tongue and is an official language. Bolivia - 85% of the some 10 million people is of Native ancestry and Quechua is an official language. Chile - 44% of the some 16 million people is of Native ancestry. Canada - 2% So what did Cortes do again that made things worse? How are Native people in Canada better off with the British benevolency? BTW - shortly after Cortes the Spanish economy took an irreparable dive on account of a devaluing of silver in Europe due to glut. Guess where the silver came from. Perhaps it might be more useful if you actually read - period. Because it is pretty clear to me that you don't know what you are talking about and your opinion on these issues are very poorly informed. Why would I bother with a qualification of a point when the original point doesn't even stand up to basic scrutiny? You are the one that is calling your point "feeble" not I.

+ See the first quote.

Propaganda in the sense that you have made a public statement that is grossly misleading and injurious to Aboriginal causes. You are comparing a bad situation using a non-existant alternative. Let's compare the state of the world with, say, Bizarro World. Hmmm, things sure look worse in Bizarro World! So you think that forced changes to subsistence, force removals to reserves, forced removal of children, residential schools, restrictions on political, social and economic freedoms, etc. ad nauseam is trying "to do right?" Hmmmm... Perhaps it might be more useful if you spend less time worrying about people taking a couple of your sentences out of context and more time trying to put your opinions in a Canadian historical context including the recent privledges of "Indians" in Canada to vote and access post-secondary education.

"Dredge" or not, it is a big deal because it completely derails your position. And here's why: Well duh-uh. We are talking "hate crimes" here are we not? Nope again. Not if they accused him of a hate crime - that of extreme misogyny. You know, like Marc Lepine and the massacre at Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal. Do you remember that? It was a 'hate crime' - 'crime of hate' that was actually white on white/* and the hate angle was much written about in news reports all over the world. Oh wait, Lepine's victims were feminists apparently, "their identity," thus the only reason that crime was actually "newsy."

It might to help visualize: -----------------Ancient Iroquoia----------------- -Separate Garden---------------Common Garden- -----------------Intermediate Zone----------------- So if you move clockwise (and through the story)can you see a cycle with the opposing elements arranged at - for lack of a better term - the cardinal points? If you take the other lists, can you see how those elements have a sort of cyclical progression? (I don't know how to do html code so the visualizing is up to you) This is more evident with the 'actions' list, but it appears to me that those elements could be arranged in a circular fashion. The 'characters' and 'relationship' elements seem to be a little more abstract to make such an arrangment, but it is possible I think. Do you see this? The reason I think this is interesting is because practically all indigenous people in North America use the circle as a primary symbol and the concept of 'cycle' as a primary concept. The story itself has a cyclical element to it where we go from stability to instability to stability again with the plant foods. I suppose the point I am trying to make is that there is more to the 'data' than simple elements or lists of elements where the arrangement of elements in this story could convey information as well. In this case it seems that the arrangement of elements in the story clearly imply the concept of the 'cycle.' Thus far we have a simple fairy tale of Corn, Beans and Squash. The Thanksgiving foods. Then we see a level of opposition in the elements of the story. Then we see an arrangement of the elements that suggests a cycle. Do you follow so far?

What post are you responding to? My original TiC post or the subsequent replies to Gabriel? If the former, you missed the boat, if the latter, try and be coherent.

Not at all. All I am saying is that your argument doesn't seem to be very solid if we count recent evidence that is contrary to what you are saying. Sure there is Matthew Sheppard and there is also the recent late-October death of Christopher Skinner in Toronto. Read the story. Hate crimes is mentioned also. By "nobody" do you include the police, Crown, lawyers, family members? Or do you wish to qualify "nobody" as well? Here is where your argument goes off the rails: Beating of man, 18, probed as hate crime Now, this is in the US and I am not about to go searching their law catelogue and try the case myself. But I would say that the police investigated and didn't find sufficient evidence. Is that possible? That it wasn't because the victim was "white" it was because they didn't find any evidence sufficient enough to convict anyone of those crimes? Because by any "resonable defintion" that is what appears had happened.

Ok, I'll cite you. In the very next paragraph of your "rebuttal" no less! Here is another one that satisfies the request in plural: So not only are you a victim of your own crapulence, you wallow in it too. Good grief. Or in the immortal words of that wise sage Bugs Bunny, "What a maroon."

First lets agree on terms. We don't have to agree on whether they are right or wrong, just that we are talking about the same thing: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/afro-centric http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrocentrism (the intro paragraph should do) So do we agree on terms?

I read a brilliant line from John Ralston-Saul in 'Reflections of a Siamese Twin' on how those that would define any Canadian as left-wing or right-wing would be be ignoring the sheer complexity of Canadian society, its myths and its realities, its history and geography. Over the years I have come to see this as very true. When it all boils down to the crunch, most Canadians are liberal in their thinking. Look that term up if you wish, take a poli-sci 101 course. We are a generous people. I have met some of the most generous people who have very conservative views and I have met some of the most socialist of folks who bogart like the best of them. What does that mean? Like Gabriel I cannot ignore how complex and interesting a society we are for the sake of applying labels to people or using those labels to dismiss their views. That would be dumbing down our reality which has a way of biting back pretty hard when that strategy is used. I sometimes do it TIC or for jest, I never believe it, but I am pretty wary of those that do or do it to score petty political points.

There seems to be a cyclical pattern to the elements that I am not sure if they are the result of the categorization, which I quickly devised at a glance. So that as you progress through each list there is a progression and a 'return to' the beginning of the list. Certainly the story suggests this 'return to' aspect as the Three Sisters are reunited and return to the common garden. However, what I know of ancient Iroquoian culture, their dependence on maize agrictulture, their use of moon phases and cycles for planting and ceremonies, etc. would suggest that the cyclical nature of the story is by design. There are also elements that oppose each other - dry/damp, cool/wither, thriving/dying, etc. This might also suggest opposite positions on a cycle. One interesting example is the locations category. I was sure if I should include the term 'Ancient Iroquoia' since it is only implied in the story. But the contrasting terms we have are then Ancient Iroquoia/Intermediate Zone & Common Garden/ Separate Garden. However, if we listed the locations in the story (including Ancient Iroquoia) it would look like this: Ancient Iroquoia - Common Garden - Intermediate Zone - Separate Garden - Intermediate Zone - Common Garden. ---> Ancient Iroquoia ... etc. From the studies of ancient Iroquoia the evidence indicates (even into historical times) that the maize fields were common property or a commons. This seems to be the most prevalent economic setup of at least Northern Iroquois. What do you make of this?

Take a look at the data. Are any elements missing, should there be additional categories or should elements be in different categories? Also, if you scan the list do you see any patterns or inferences?

OK, so what I would like to do is break the story down into its elements. I am trying to list these elements in the order as they appear in the story keeping in mind that the story is in English and that there might have been data loss through translation, etc. Have a look at the elements and we can discuss anything that should or should not be listed, or could be listed elsewhere or requires a separate category. The idea - if possible - is to list the story elements singly so that it appears only once. Also, can you discern any patterns when the elements are listed this way? Characters Sisters Maize Beans Squash Farmer Locations Ancient Iroquoia Common Garden Intermediate Zone Separate Garden Actions planting growing climbing winding shading cooling choking defending breaking moving suffering withering mouldering drying noticing dying re-uniting eating Relationship family close depended re-uniting need broke-up power

OK, so what you are saying - forgetting that Jews and homosexuals can be as white as anyone I know - is that all minorities - can call "haaaaate criiiiiime!" and it will get media attention as well as white/off-white women? So by this are you excluding white males and thus the premise should actually be: 'typical media anti-white male bias?' Is that a better fit as your premise?

kimmy, from an earlier post: So where is the typical media anti-White bias in the story I supplied about the black man who assaulted the two lesbians (white/mulatto) who demanded he be charged with hate crimes? I am just trying to get a sense of what premise you think has merit and what your position is on that premise.

"How's that for a start?" That isn't a start, more like an end! But we need to show our work right? So here we have an old Iroquoian story that is subject to a mild form of anthropomorphization of three staple foods - maize, beans and squash. The legend - as above - has likely been heavily modified since it's original creation. There might be the possibility of data loss in the telling and re-telling over the millennia. We do not know of the originating culture of this story and there doesn't appear to be any original documentation corroborating it's creation other than the recording of it by an early American ethnologist. Would you agree the above summary is accurate and, if not, what other descriptive elements would you add?

Good question. I don't really "feel" anything since it is not an emotive issue for me. As for 'supporting' well I that depends on measurable outcomes. On the one hand, the name of this country comes from the old Iroquoian word for 'village' or 'place of homes' to be more exacting. So I can appreciate the integrative approach to education. That is, I believe in public schools as a concept and that any bias can be corrected within that system, but naturally - like any other bureaucracy - change is slow and contentious. On the other hand, there is no doubt that there is a bias into the make-up and delivery of the modern public school curriculum - it is not racist and it is (mostly) not intentional. That bias could have a long term effect on the success of certain minorities within our system. And then lets not forget that we also pay for separate school boards of the RC variety. Are publically funded all-black schools the answer? I don't know of any publically funded all-black schools. I think you might be confusing the concept of afro-centric to all-black yes? There is a fairly significant difference. So are publically funded afro-centric schools the answer? I don't know. The current one in Toronto is a good experiment and a worthy experiment I think. If results can be achieved that give us information to be able to accelerate the correction of any bias within the public system, I can appreciate that. And a sound fix to the public school system ought to eliminate the need for any publically funded centric schools.

OMG - the implications are horrendous for our society! It will collapse into a swirling mass of dizzy confusion. All-girl schools? Then private schools? Then you know what will happen? The religions will jump on-board and have their own special, elitist "schools" and limit them to Sundays in church basements. Surely brimstone and ghashing of teeth will follow. Run for the hills!

charter.rights - are you familiar with the old Iroquoian story of The Three Sisters? Roughly: Now, this is a pretty rough rendition of what is likely a very ancient indigenous story that has been passed down through oral tradition for thousands of years into modern times. It must have been a pretty important story to be preserved all those years. Now, do you think that it is possible that the content of this story can also be true from a scientific perspective?