Machjo

Again, high immigration standards can solve all of this. As for the polygamy issue, I agree that we need to do something about those Mormons.

This can all be solved by high immigration standards. This way, they're guaranteed a high-paying job and so higher taxes. personally, I'd also be in favour of privatised health care for all, thus making this a moot point (I'm more libertarian-leaning myself). As for your comments about violence, I fully agree that we need to get the Hell's Angles off our streets.

No, it grows on production, but that production depends on demand. And who'll buy the car and the food? Sure we can just export, but look where that got Japan. A large trade surplus also pushes the value of the currency up, making our exports ever more expensive. Add to that that people can buy from abroad just as easily. Houses, haircuts, and such like are not easily importable or exportable, however, and this is where immigration has an advantage. And if we have high enough standards, which could include requiring immigrants to have so much money, then they're also more likely to spend thei money here rather than elsewhere. I agree. But in a recession, we can't depend on the export markets alone. This is where immigation comes in. It's not so easy to export a house or a haricut. But you're missing something here. Other countries think the same. For us to export, others must import. This can't go on indefinitely,a s Japan's bubble economy in the 80's had proven to be futile. If we try to play a game of 'beggar-thy-neighbour', other countries will throw it right back at us. Remember the Great Depression? Protectionism made it even worse. With immigration, along with more freedom of labour movement, people can find more work abroad. For instance, right now Canada has a shortage of qualified mechanics. So let more in. However, Europe might have a shortage of some other skill that's not in demand in Canada. This way, foreigners can get jobs in Canada and canadians can get jobs abroad. After all, what's the point of haivng mechanic shorages in canada and unemployed mechanics in Europe?Likewise, what'sthe point of having unemployed people in Canada who might have skills that are in demand in Europe? Let them travel on both sides so that we can all have jobs. The Great Depression was a good lesson in how 'beggar-thy-neighbour' policies hurt all parties concerned. But naturally, people who find work abroad might later get married abroad and want to settle, etc. Why not treat them like humans, especially once they've paid their taxes already. Japan's primary industries are minimal as it has few resources of its own. The Japanese are smart as they create value-added jobs on our resource exports. Now don't get me wrong here. I'm not suggesting that we stop exporting raw materials to Japan (I'm not that vindictive). All I'm saying is that it's not wise to be depleting our resources like this. Though I'm not in favour of just closing all our mines, I could be in favour of a resource tax similar to what the Green Party was proposing last election. Let's sell our resources at higher cost and thus encourage the development of more secondary and tertiary industries of our own. Why should we export all of our secondary and tertiary industries to Japan? Again, I'm not suggesting that we don't, as that would just be cruel to theJapanese, and vindictive. But if we sell our resources at higher cost, then while the Japanese could continue to import our resources if they want, we could develop more tertiary and secondary industries of our own too. It's not wise to depend on nothimg more than digging for our wealth. Primary industries are indeed important. That is precisely why we should not take our resources for granted. Developing more secondary industries could help reduce our dependance on resources alone. Wealth is not limited to raw materials, but to finished products too. In fact, finished products are more valuable than just a clunk of steel. By providing services we need. We could easily make it part of the immigration standard that one must present a job offer to the immigration officer at his Canadian embassy, or alternatively a business plan that has been approved by a Canadian busines partner. That would ensure he has a job bevore even setting foot on Canadian soil. With the internet today,it shouldn't be too hard to find work online. I've done it before when looking to work in Toronto, and then China, at one point, In both cases, I had the job before even setting foot in their town. Why can't we ask the same of immigrants? Are you suggestingthat they can't find work? That's just plane racist and bigotted. If we expect them to have so much moeny in the bank, qualifications, and a job offer or approved business plan before coming to Canada, then they'd essentially have money to spend even before they set foot on Canadian soil, and would have a plan to spend even more money if they have a businessplan. I get the impression that in your mind, all immigrants are just coolies. No, it's like believing that if the person has moeny already before coming to Canada, the question then becomes, where will he spend it? And if he has qualifications in demand in the Canadian market, he might be able to help to increae Canada's exports by offering his brains, his expertise,that some Canadians might not have. To take but one instance, a few years ago, a Mexican Aztec friend of mine was studying at the University of Toronto. As it turned out, she had also studies classical Aztec, a reare skill even in Mexican Universities. She'd never realised her value to the univeristy until one day she was chatting with her profesor. As soon as she'd mentioned this, she had a job teaching at the univeristy within a semester and the university offered her education for free. Why? Because this suddenly made U of T one of the best universities for studying archeology in North America, which woudl naturally attract more students, also from around the world, and thus help the university and, consequently, Canada's economy. According to your logic, it would have been preferable to kick her out and maybe then she could offer her sevices to some US university instead so that Canadians who want to study archeology would want to go to the US instead of Uof T. Way to attract money to Canada there, eh. We need to think bigger. Brains are a resource too, even more so than gold, as the Japanese have proven. So we throw the baby out with the bath water? If we should raise standards, then the people coming in are more likely to be able to make a contribution to the economy and even attract more foreign investment, as the example with the Mexican above. Could any of those laid off factory workers of your go to U of T to teach classical Aztec to foreign students who bring money to the Canadian economy? They'd be an embarrassment to Canada's scholarly endeavours. I don't believe we must take in immigrants, but if they can make a contribution, why not? As for racial stock, are you in any way related to Goebels? And you do realise that many of those 'undesirable racial stocks' are highly educated, don't you?

Sieg Heil, Leafless. Are you a member of the Nazi Party by any chance?

Cattle over people. Nice priorities. I'm vegan and even I value people over cattle. Great. So we'lljust depend on gutting our resources to feed ourselves. Nice long-term thinkng there. And about 'ethnic' imigration. What immigration isn't ethnic? Show me someone who has no particular ethnic identity. Even a person of mixed identity will still identify with some ethnic group or other to some degree. Yes, even Anglo is ethnic. Then you obviously don't understand the concept of Green. It's not about protecting one nation at the expense of other nations, but rather protecting the earth. Looking at it that way, population growth through immigration actually equates with no growth from a Green standpoint since it's just a transfer of population from one part of the world to another. Also, Green does not mean celibating ourselves out of existance. Reasonable growth, or at least population maintenance, is good when are population is so small. Any stats on that? You do realise, don't you, that we're all immigrants or descendants of immigrants. My ancestors on my mother's side immigrated to New France 300 years ago. My paternal grandfather immigrated from Ireland, and my paternal grandmother's ancestors likely immigrated to the continent btween 30,000 and 50,000 years ago from Asia. Like I said, we're all immigrants. Talk about closing the door behind you once you're in. If anything, the a bigger problem in Canada is with the growin number of ingrates who know little of the history of the land on which they live. Our nation was built on immigration, Had it not been for that, you'd likely have been born in Europe and be an immigrant yourself. Like I said, clowing the door behind us, are we? Our ancestors immigrate to Canada, push the locals into reservations or residential schools, exploit the land's resources, and then close the door behind them, ready to let any new foreinger in only to pay money to us. Again, opposing immigration today is showing a lack of gratitude to thos who'd welcomed our own ancestors.. of then again, some our ancestors just invited themselves in.

You mean before entering Canada? Before entering Canada, I think there really should be no wait. It shold be as simple as meeting certain standards. You prove you mee the standards through standardized tests or other means, and if you paee, you're allowed in. If not, then come back in a year and take the test again. Of course in some cases it might have nothing to do with tests. For ciminal records, they'd need info from their local police. Or for finances, a bank statement, etc. While I'm all for standards, it ought to be straightforward. I'm fine with having high standards before entering Canada. But once in, they should be able to get their documents quickly enough in my opinion. It's not fair to them to leave them hanging once they've met all the standards before entering.

And what about Louis Riel Day?

I do agree, Canadien, with the idea that once in Canada, you should be able to get your papers quickly. People are people, not cattle, and need to get on with their lives.

It's interesting that you say that. If you compare the parties in the House right now, the party that comes closest to the CPC in its views on federalism is the Bloc. Yet in spite of that, the Bloc is the party the CPC opposes the most because they're separatist. Separatism aside, though, they are similar in their claimed support for decentralization from the federal to the provincial. They're just blinded bybigotry. By the way, though my family immigrated to Canada about 300 years ago, I'd be one of those votes in the bag if the CPC could just scrap its bigotry.

I agree. However, if a racist sees even just one non-white person on welfare, immediately he stereotypes the whole bunch. By raising standards, we'd likely expose him to more non-whites being doctors, scientists, etc than anything else, which would, we hope, at least change the opinions of more moderate racists. But I agree that there is not much we can do for hard-core racists other than try to educate.

Any recommendations? Praying is just the first step to controlling costs. A plan of action would be the next. If polititians don't know how to doit, then ideas must come from the citizenry.

I agree. I was referring to overall perceptions.

1. You seem in your last sentence to be equating ability to integrate with race. 2. Higher immigration standards would solve the problem you're referring to here, not by screening for race, but for education qualifications, experience, etc. Are you sure we live in the same Ottawa? I was born in Ottawa, and have been exposed to diversity from childhood. My mother is French Canadian tracing her roots back to New France 300 years ago, and before that to Angou, France. My father is Irish Canadian with Canadian aboriginal blood. His mother is Austrian. My mother is Catholic, my father Anglican, and when I'd gone to Catholic elementary school, there were black kids there with me. All the time I'd lived in Ottawa, I was surrounded by diversity. Even in history class, we'd learnt about how our continent's cultures have been in a constant state of flux for a number of centuries aready. Even before we'd arrived, what is now Canada spoke at least 64 different languages and practiced various forms of spirituality. The French came in and added French and the Catholic Faith and some protestantism. The British came in and added English and Protestantism. French and English grew for a long time. Owing to our low birth rates, we're now seeing new immigrants coming in. So in effect, our cultures have been in a constant state of flux for well over 3 centuries already. Add to that that the presence of libraries have played a role too. In 20th history lessons, when studying aobut Israel in high school, we'd learnt a little about Islam. It fascinated me so much that I'd gone to the school library to read the Qur'an. As far as I know, there is only one Ottawa in Canada. I there another I wasn't aware of? Or is your computer equipped to read brail? But at least we've since gotten rid of the infamous residential schools You are aware, aren't you, that Obama is black?

Population expansion, be it from imigration or high birth rates, creates jobs. As the population was growing in the 1970's, that created jobs. Now that the population is no longer growing, there is no more growing demand for goods and services. To be fair, there are ways of handling a no-growth population. As long as the population doesn't shrink, though economic booms might be hard to come by, we can at least ensure moderate stability in the markets. But if we're looking for actual job growth, then we want an expanding population to increase market demands. In that sense, now would be the right time to increase immigration.

Another point. Such higher standards would likely help to transform Canadians' perceptions of immigrants from that of welfare bums to people we'd want to emulate, thus helping to break down the barriers of prejudice in Canadian society.

Actually, it woud not be making them more employable than us; they already would be more employable. The difference would simply be that they would be the only ones who could come in for the most part. And since there would no longer be any quotas, it would also mean that doctores from around the world would be in competition with each other for the Canadian jobs, thus potentially helping to bring thei salaries down a little, and thus helping to make health care a little more affordable. Granted it would likely be but a small drop, but hey, every penny counts.

While I'd be in favour of making it more difficult for immigrants to come to Canada, not through quotas but through standards, I would also support making it easier for them, once in Canada, to get their papers. It's outright cruel to let them in easily and then make it hard for them to stay. They're humans too and once they live somewhere, they make friends and adjust. Also, to make it difficult for them once in Canada increases the risk of deceptive marriages of convenience, wchich hurt Canadians too after the divorce. I've seen a few lives shattered as a result of such marriages. So yes, make it harder for them to come, but easier for them to stay.

Fine, I take my words back; he may have had a point. However, there are other factors to consider. Owing to the rigorous standards already in place, which often include consideration of available personal funds, along with my proposal for even higher standards, immigrants would find it even more easy than the average Canadian to integrate in the job market, as is generally the case according to welfare statistics quoted in another thread. This does not necessarily mean, however, that they'll just 'come and take our jobs'. Yes, they'll be taking jobs they're most qualified for, but they themselves will also be paying taxes, and buying alot to reintegrate, such as houses, food, cooking supplies, clothes, etc. etc. etc. which can only help create new jobs. And as for the boat analogy, Canada is not the overcrowded country you make it out to be. We have plenty of land and plenty of resources. And if we maintain such standards for new immigrants, that would increase our supply of quality human resources too, helping to develop more industry, build new houses, and build a larger ta base to help Canada's less fortunate too! And guess what! Immigrants volunteer and give to charitable organizations too. With a larger educated and thus likely better paid population, it also benefits charities and Canada's own poor too. While I can appreciate that we're now in a recession, so is the rest of the world. We're not unique in that sense. But immigration can create ust as many jobs as it can take. So we'd at least break even there.

Some are more equal than other?

So if I as a citizen want to present something to Parliament, I'd better thank my lucky stars that I'm bilingual and can translate my own documents, while the poor unilingual sucker can dig out of his pockets. Not very democratic. All individual citizens and organizations should be free to approach the governmetn in the language of their choice. It's up to Parliament to translate. it's a matter of democratic access to government, which shold not be reserved only to bilinguals and those who can afford interpreters.

Sorry, I was referring to the federal level. But you are right that in Quebec they'd have to be in French, and rightly so. If Ontario wanted a law that they ought to be in English, that would be fair too. Then it would be up to the company to decide whether a particular market is worth targetting or not. But I don't think it's wise to impose universal bilingualism on all companies across the board as translation is expensive. If a company does business across Canada, yes, it should have to abide by all provincial regulations and provide its manuals bilingually while providing services uniingually in each respective province unless the market warrants. It's just a plain matter of economics. But if it operates in one province only, or only locally, then why waste so much money on bilingual packaging, etc.? That just pushes costs, and thus inflation, up.

Not at all their bad. They are private sector and so should be free to use any of Canada's official languages. It's up to the government to provide interpretation.

But the car manufacuters are not government employees and so have, and ought not to have, any such obligation. It's the government's job toensure that Parliament has access to qualified interpretors. Another point. Seeing that they might be signing legal documents or making legally standing comments at times in their discussions, Parliament also has s duty to ensure the best-quality interpretors are available and that they not be overworked at any time to ensure the highest-quality interpretation. I've done interpretation work on occasion before on occasion, and can say that it is mentally exhausing when done over any considerable length of time.

Wow! So much for 'love thy neighbour as thyself'.

Car owners' manuals are a private sector issue and ought ot remain thus. If these companies value the French-language market, they'll translate them. Besides, they sell cars in europe too, so they would have to translate the manual anyway not for legal reasons but for market ones alone.