playfullfellow

I would have to agree with you bro, the liberals are the ones with the most lies. Maybe you should have posed the question as to which party would be "least" likely to keep it's election promises. The liberals would still top the list I think, even before the election.

OK August, I have been looking for info, maybe I am looking at it the wrong way then show me why I am wrong. At least I am trying to back my arguments here

Canada is also a much more diversified and regional country than Norway or even the UK. We are also looking at the second largest country in the world when you consider land mass. The constitution set up this diversification to try and keep everyone happy. It aint working. Personally, if I knew the bloody money would not be pissed away, then I couldn't care less. But we as a country have witnessed hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions get tossed out the window on stupid ideas and plans. People might call Albertans whinners for still being pissed at the NEP but we watched 60 billion dollars leave our province in 4 short years and the majority of it headed east. Also, if you take note, since equalization payments, Alberta has only received 7 payments, Ontario none. The ROC besides BC (yes that is unforunate for such a diverse province) has always been on the receiving end from the beginning.

So, after reading the above information, we can figure that Alberta loses 70 cents of every dollar it gets from royalties in equalization payments. Alberta is projected to make 8 billion in revenues from royalties this year, take away 70 percent and you are left with 2.4 billion. Alberta is using this to pay off it's debt which is a good thing. The ROC wants to get in a pissing contest over 2.4 billion, is it really worth to Canada as a whole? Not really a lot of money when you look at the whole picture but it is a lot of money to Alberta. When you split that 2.4 billion up evenly between the other provinces and territories, they each end up with 200 million. To some provinces, that is a lot of money, to others it doesn't mean very much at all. At least here in Alberta we know the money is going to pay off our debt, improve infrastructure, improve healthcare and education, etc.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/equalization/ So according to the info I found on this site, Ottawa essentially takes 70 percent of the royalties, so essentially you want the other 30 percent too.

Aside from Ontario, Alberta is the only other province that contributes to equalization payments according to this site. check this august

MS, exactly how do you propose that Canada get out of these deals and maintain our export markets at the current levels they are at? Have you actually sat down and thought this idea through? I think not because you do not think of the repurcussions of such an action. Firstly, we all know that the US is a protectionist state and fights tooth and nail to protect it's domestic industries. At least right now we do have appeal boards to take our complaints to. Yeah, the US does not always listen or abide by these rulings but that is life. Secondly, these agreements allow "us" (Canada) access to US products we need with less paper work and stress hence a lower cost to us. Thirdly, where the heck do you propose we will sell all these products that the US will tell us to stick up our arses because we are having a hissy fit? We will be right back in dealing with trade wars and such with the US and we are definately in no position to win such a war. What happens when duties and tariffs double on current products? Your proposition is an invitation to bankrupt Canada and its industry.

Idealist, you quotes bring up some food for thought I have to admit. So, we can say that there was a subsidy to the Alberta oil industry but there are no figures showing how much this benefitted Alberta. Is there some totals available? I guess you can say that Alberta oil, which does produce a lot of revenue for the country as a whole now, has received help, sort of like Air Canada or Bombardia? How much help has the automobile manufacturing industry received in government help over the years? Did Quebec hydro receive any money at all from the ROC? How much revenue have these other subsidies help Canada as a whole? No matter how you look at it, there has been plenty of money spread around over the years with no return at all to the Canadian tax payer. At least the oil and gas industry is showing a rather large return right now.

There has been a lot of babbling about that resources should be shared by all in the land. There has not yet been any hard evidence show why this is a good thing. I see a lot of Albertans are whinners, Albertans are greedy, Albertans are ungrateful because it was actually Ontario skill and money that developed the oil industry in Alberta. But no one has shown any substantial reasoning as to why the ROC of Canada should share in the money. There is plenty of evidence of what happened the last time Ottawa dipped into Albertas resources. Total friking chaos and thousands of people out of work. The money taken was pissed away. Show the evidence of where this money would do some good for everyone, not just Ontario or Quebec like the last time. I really doubt that Ontario or Quebec would be willing to share with us if the shoe was on the other foot.

MS, it must really get your goat then that Ontario, all wise and inteligent, gave up its rights to control all the provinces and wealth of this country by itself? Where was Ontario when the whole country was in economic chaos in the early 80's? They were eyeing the provinces that had resource rich economies and figuring ways to take that money and then spending it in Quebec and Ontario. Now, through the all wise decisions of Ontario, we have a severe split in this country between the provinces that have money and the provinces that do not. The economy as a whole is doing pretty good right now so the whole country as a whole should be doing quite well. Why is this not the case? Well, a lot of provinces have become so enthralled with buying votes with money they don't have so now they are in debt up to their eyeballs. Alberta has been deligent, paid off its debts sreamlined a lot of programs and stayed within their spending limits so now the ROC is looking and saying, hmmmmmmmm, they have a few billion bucks that we could use and we dont even have to do anything for it. MS, your posts are very evident that you would gladly sit back and let other people do all the hard work to make a company wealthy and then turn around and take that wealth so that you do not have to work hard for a living and get more days off. Here in Alberta we call that being lazy and someone having no initiative. So instead of looking for ways to take easy money off of the hard working of this country, get off your butt and do something original with your ideas and work hard for your money.

I do not agree with women getting paid less than their male counterparts if they are doing the same job and they are doing the same quality job. In my years working in agriculture, I saw the industry progress greatly over 15 years when it came to female employees. Now plenty of farm managers are female and making the same as their male counterparts. Now I work construction and there are not a lot of ladies that prefer this type of work. It is strenous, stressful and often dangerous and down right miserable when you are working outside in the rain. If a woman could do the same job with the same quality as the people on my team now, then she would be paid the same as everyone else. Thats the way it should be as well as any woman should have the oppertunity to prove she can do the job to the same standard that we currently do.

I have been to Quebec back in the 70's. It wasn't a really joyfull time to say the least. We were an immigrant family with only 1 person out of 4 who could speak English and we did not speak French at all. Got treated like crap and could not receive help almost anywhere we went, people looked down upon us and made rude (I assume) comments when we asked for help. We said enough of that and moved west, to Alberta. Even though we could not speak English or French, we were treated very well. People were helpful and made us feel welcome. I do not know if times have changed things in Quebec but I lost a lot of respect becasue we were treated as if we lower than a snakes belly there. Quebec asks for respect from teh ROC but gives none in return and in general feel themselves superior to others. I am not the only person with such experiences, I know quite a few people who say the same. So, you ask us to respect your language but in return you show no repsect for ours. For this whole bloody thing to work, there has to be give and take on both sides of the equation, not just one way. Maybe this is all a misconception but I get the same opinion from a lot of people. I have no problem with Quebec or Quebec being french, that is a part of Canada and our culture as a whole. What I do have a problem with is that Quebec wants this to be a one way street. If Quebec would actually show a willingness to be a part of Canada and work towards making Canada a better country, then we could make headway.

That would be fine with me but there are too many BS programs across this country and the money just gets pissed away. You keep giving someone charity and they will have their hand out everytime you open your wallet. Look at the kids everytime Grandma comes to the door for a visit and gives the kiddies a dollar, do this a few times and the kiddies will have the hands out before Grandma even gets her coat of. If you can get something for nothing, why work for it. Where is the incentive to improve if you know you have money coming like clockwork to pay for your spending? If the money actually went to things besides feel good programs that do nothing but give short term benefit, then I would say so what, the pay off will come when these investments start making a return. But in all reality, how many governement sponsored industries actually make it? Saskatchewan has some very fine examples of money getting pissed out the window. Just think potash or potatos. Ask any Newfoundlander how moeny is wasted out there on feel good programs. All of these programs are there to buy votes, they only have a 4 year foresight, nothing else. If in the overall picture, the money from royalties would make Canada financially stronger as a whole, then go for it. But I do not see this happening. The money will just go to waste so why shouldn't it benefit Albertans? If it was up to the ROC, Alberta would be in debt up to their eyeballs too.

Ummmm, I worked, is that enough appreciation? Had to work to make deadlines and pay extra taxes for these fine social programs we have. 40 hour work week, whats that? I thought it was around 60 or so hours, at least it is for me. Weekends, just time to do more work I guess. Overtime? I work two jobs, one for an employer, don't get overtime there and am also self employed, nope no overtime there either. EI, been paying into it for 19 years, never used it. Sick days, too damn busy to get sick, our policy, if its cold, wear a toque. I may sound a bit sarcastic but in all reality, I like to work and don't really care about these other benefits. I never have time to use them anyways. I would like to see my taxes go down so I would not have to work 60 plus hours per week to pay the bills, now that would be a real benefit.

August, Alberta already pays to the ROC. Alberta is a net contributor to transfer payments. Albertans and many companies have invested their lives and many millions of dollars into the exploration and extraction of our resources. Aside from PetroCan and the Syncrude investments, there has not been much help from the ROC getting the oil industry to where it is now. I can remember reading somewhere that they figured that the world would not be dependant on oil as much as we are now. Alberta invested and so did many Albertans. Why should the ROC of Canada wreap the benefits from the sweat of so many others? As for the NEP, who benefitted the most? That would be Ontario and Quebec. Yeah, the early 80's sucked economically for everyone but Trudeau siphoned money from an area he did not get votes and injected it into an area he did get votes. This is what Albertans are pissed about. This will just happen again and you know it. Sure, take money from one area so you can buy votes in another area. Or, it will just go into some other bullcrap program that has to be run by some beauracracy. Alberta has worked bloody hard to get their crap together while we watch the rest of the country keep pissing money away like it is 5 cent beer. Alberta is not perfect by any means but there are a lot of people in this province with a lot of initiative and guts to put their backs into hard work to make a living. Show me some figures on how you figure this whole scheme will benefit Canada as a whole? Show me the facts as you see them and I may change my mind, everyone here knows I am very centrist.

The whole wlefare system needs to be overhauled which is very evident by the posts here. There are too many people who use the system just to get out of work and that in turn affects the people who legitimately need assistance. There are too many people who know how to use the system so they don't have to work. I know lots of people on AISH who would love to work but because of their disabilities can not work full time. Unfortunately, once they make over 200 dollars per month, then their benefits are cut. So they are basically told they have to live on around 1000 dollars per month, not very much to live on in my opinion. Physically and mentally capaple people should have to something in return for their cheque. Employers that need casual labour could sign up for a pool and help off set the cost of welfare by footing part of the bill. If any really outstanding workers show up, then they may be able to hire them on longer term. If there are no jobs availeble in the pool, then there are plenty of streets and parks that need to be cleaned. There should also be zero tolerance for cheaters. Once caught cheating, they should get blacklisted. We should also have a good look at our minimum wages every 4-5 years to make sure they are keeping up with our cost of living. Right now, they are not.

Ceasar, what I meant to say is that BC went from being a have province to being a have not province. BC will recover but it will take time, let's just hope you guys dont vote in someone completely radical next year and put you guys further behind.

August, part of the reason Alberta gets upset when others talk about our resources is because we can say, "been there, done that". It didn't work out very well for Alberta the last time so why would it be any better this time? As pointed out by others, in return for not having to pay out these royalties, the transfer payments back to Alberta are greatly reduced. As for Albertans being babies, look in the mirror, someone has a better toy than you at the moment and you want it so you figure you should be able just to take it away.

Sort of another version of the NEP I take it. That went over very well for Alberta in the 80's. 100's of bankrupted companies, 1000's out of work. Where was the all the helpfulness and gold hearted attitude from the East? 60 billion dollars went East in 4 short years and what did they do with it? They pissed it away. Why should Ontario and Quebec get money from royalties when they have done absolutely nothing to deserve it? Alberta already pays much more than it gets back and you talk of taking more, that is a bunch of self righteous bs in my mind. If other provinces want to get in on the oil industry boon, then they need to invest in it themselves, not just stand with their hand out every time some other area is having a good run. The same can be said for the East and their mining industry, nothing ever went west from those royalties. The money you are talking about taking will just get pissed away in other areas while Alberta pays for it, again.

There are a lot of perceptions in the ROC that Alberta is just a bunch of redneck farmers who vote conservative just because they have always voted conservative. In a lot of cases this is not true. Albertans have watched what goes on the ROC in regards to when they continually vote in a different party every election. They also see what happens to these provinces financially with each flip flop. BC went from one of the richest provinces to one of the poor provinces under the NDP. The BC Liberals said they would fix the problem but seem to making a bigger mess out of things. Saskatchewan seems to walk the fine line of being broke all the time and has done so for years. I am not too familiar with Manitoba so can not make any assumptions of the situation there. Given that our 2 closest neighbours have been in continual chaos over the last 10 years due to their provincial politics, why would we chose that?

Klein, you either love him or hate him. That is the kind of person he is. He is not a perfect person or politician but over all he has done a fairly decent job running the province. He does suffer from the occasional case of foot in the mouth disease but in all reality, he says it as most people see it. Alberta has been rather lucky with the oil prices and has seen a tremendous amount of revenue enter our coffers. Klein tries to ensure this money goes to where it is needed. There is more money going back into our healthcare and schools. New schools are being built and more teachers are being hired. Hospitals still need to go further but Klein does not believe just throwing more moeny at it will eliviate the problems we now have. Health regions have to have spending plans before they can get extra money. Overall, I think most people agree with Klein and will reelect him again.

These types of taxes have been tried by various socialist type countries in Europe and have largely fallen flat on their arses. In some countries, it has been customary that the family home gets sold at the death of someone because no one can afford to pay the high taxes associated with death. The government has taken away any insentive for the kids to retain the family home, they can not afford it. The government gets their inheritance taxes plus income taxes from the benefactors. With what is being proposed here, how many family farms would stay in the family? How many businesses would be able to stay viable because of the large cost associated with death? Not very many because in all reality, people do not have that kind of money laying around. The proposition made on this tax is in essence supposed to be a punishment for the rich but in the end will only bite the middle and low income class people. It will give them no possibility to increase their standing or worth because the government wants its share first. The governement does not give a baboons butt about what further grief this may cause people who have just lost a loved one. It is not an inheritance tax, it is a grief tax.

What about the people who bought houses in an area that was cheap 50 years ago, lived there all their lives before passing and now the house and property are worth a miilion bucks? They may have bought that house for 50,000 dollars, were middle income for their whole lives and their heirs are middle income. There may be no money to pay 100,000 dollars in taxes. Then this property has to be sold. Now, the property sells and the governement gets its 100,000 in inheritance tax. We have 900,000 left over minus all the leagl fees of lawyers and realestate aganets to comes off. Probably another 50,000 or so. We have 850,000 left. The tax man rubs his hands together again, we now move into the category of income tax. I know a ceratin amount of an inheritance is tax exempt but do not now the amount so I use 100,000 as an example. We have 750,000 left over, whats the tax rate on this for someone who does not have access to loop holes and write offs? Probably over 50% so I use 50% as an example. That leaves us with 375,000 dollars. Out of a million dollars, you get 475,000, the tax man gets 475,000 and the rest get 50,000. This is not an unrealistic assumption that this will happen. What it boils down to is that it is a tax that is supposed to take from the rich but in the end, bites the working class slob who does not have fancy lawyers and tax accountants. This reads like a tax that will force all middle to low income people to force selling off a property just so the governement can get more taxes.

Exactly how would this unite our country MS? You are forcing the will of the minority unto the will of the majority in all regions of Canada. Forcing people to do something they really do not wish to do in the first place just to appease another culture will blow up in everyones face. This applies whether you are taling about English Canada or French Canada. This is all a waste of time and money because it will never work. The option should be there to learn either language but there should also be options to learn other languages too in schools. Currently, Quebec is the worst offender when it comes to looking after its letting people learn English. Most schools here in Alberta make French compulsory for 2 years. Some don't because they are too rural and small and can not afford to hire just a French teacher. If indeed Quebec wishes to be a part of Canada, then it is time they show a willingness to do so. I do not think it is fair that the ROC has to bow to their every whim as they have done for so many years. It hasn't done squat anyways!

Say you buy a house for 150,000 bucks. You are around 30 years old. You live in this house for 30 years and you kick the can. Over those 30 years you would pay around a 1000 bucks are year in porperty taxes which equals 30,000 dollars. You have also paid pst, gst on everything that has gone into this house including your utilities and services. Conservatively, you have paid around 45,000 dollars over 30 years to own this house. That 45,000 are taxes and now they are proposing another 10 percent when you kick the bucket. We now bring the count up to 60,000 dollars in taxes on this place, which if you figured in inflation would be a lot more. You also fail to figure that the new owner will continue to pay these taxes and services as well.