jennie

You will never find the 'truth' about Indigenous Peoples in Euro writings, wd. A Mohawk said to me: The French came to Quebec, looked down the shores of the St Lawrence and decreed that the 'Indians' on the north side were 'Huron' (rogues, savages) and the South side were Iroquois (black snakes). In truth they were all Iroquoian peoples and they spanned the border (which did not exist), for hunting, trading, living, etc. They moved their communities every 20 years or so to let the earth revive.

So ... we continue to tell the truth ... myths continue to be exposed ... like this one: No, I absolutely agree: Equal rights for all. Equal right to inherit property rights, for example. There are no 'special rights'. That's just propaganda fed to confuse the issues. The rights afforded by the Constitution of Canada are the rights we all have. The reason they are stated more explicitly for aboriginal people is because traditionally, their rights have not been respected in Canada (or elsewhere). The historical infringements on their rights are due to greed for the resources from their land ... the money that fuels our economy (and others). The new declaration from the UN makes this perfectly clear: It is simply a restatement of 'human rights' from other UN covenants, as a reminder that all of these rights also apply to Indigenous Nations within other countries.

No, I absolutely agree: Equal rights for all. Equal right to inherit property rights, for example. There are no 'special rights'. That's just propaganda fed to confuse the issues. The rights afforded by the Constitution of Canada are the rights we all have. The reason they are stated more explicitly for aboriginal people is because traditionally, their rights have not been respected in Canada (or elsewhere). The historical infringements on their rights are due to greed for the resources from their land ... the money that fuels our economy (and others). The new declaration from the UN makes this perfectly clear: It is simply a restatement of 'human rights' from other UN covenants, as a reminder that all of these rights also apply to Indigenous Nations within other countries.

Your lack of knowledge of the history of Canada is showing. As a citizen, you are responsible for informing yourself of any historical issues that citizens may need to address.

Six Nations on the Grand River, Kahnawake near Montreal, Wahta in Muskoka, Awkwesasne in Quebec, Tyendinaga near Belleville, St Regis/Oka in the US Kahnesetake (Quebec or US ... not sure). They "Iroquois" were given that name by their enemies, the French (black snakes). Their real name is the "Haudenosaunee" ... 'people of the longhouse' ... and they are the Haudenosaunee Confederacy of Six Nations which includes Mohawk, Oneida, Cayuga, Seneca, Onondaga and Tuscarora Nations. Why?

The Constitution states "existing aboriginal and treaty rights". Aboriginal title is one aboriginal right. there are other aboriginal rights that can exist on land to which they do not have title. "Aboriginal rights" means they have an interest in the land, and a say in the use of the land, even though they may not have aboriginal title. In the Lake Sharbot case, though, aboriginal title is clear as that is the ancestral home of those Algonquins, for millenia.

The first nations would be crushed and absorbed if they got too...ummm....pushy. Apparently not ... this is what we are responding to. That's not kindergarten though ... it is a statement of war to the 'finish' ... genocide. Is that what you espouse too? I am sure you understand the true story of whitey being here ... they welcomed us, helped us, made friendship treaties with us to allow us to live on parts of their land, reserving parts for themselves. I am sure you can take it from there. Every Canadian schoolkid knows the story of encroachment, fraud, etc. by which we stole their land, attacked their culture, etc. ... all of which are supposed to be behind us now, but are not.

Not afraid ... just not sure ... I have heard that the farmers and rural seniors are going to the Green Party in droves. All the Tory blue in farm country may be turning green. Their concerns are about Harper and his hidden agenda. They gave him a chance, and he muzzled their representatives, and they will not tolerate that, don't trust him now, so the word is there will be big changes there. Giving it all plenty of thought ... not decided.

What I see is that neither of you can answer my question without revealing the truth: Canada is the greedy lawless bastard and you know it. Having said that, where were we ... ah yes ... the thread topic ... HOW CAN WE DO THIS RIGHT? Well first of all ... what does "right" mean? That would mean ... according to the laws of Canada ... right? Can we agree on that? I am sure that is what the majority of Canadians would agree with. If so, how can we convince our politicians that Canadians want them to resolve issues with Indigenous Nations according to our laws?

Your personal insults betray a chink in the armour. I got you on the truth, didn't I! Read the truth ... the violence will be perpetrated by us on them. They have no need of violence. They are simply on their own land keeping intruders out. That is where Six Nations confederacy people were last April 20 too ... unarmed, protecting their land from intruders. The OPP attacked ... 150 police armed with semi-automatics, tasers, tear gas, pepper spray and police batons against 20 elders, parents, youth, and young children. They crushed the 20 protestors, chased them down, tacked them, brought them down HARD regardless of age, gender (or potential pregnancy), and with at least 5 cops to a person, beat them to the ground and on the ground with batons, fists, boots, elbows, knees, cuffed them and hauled them away. Crushed? NOT! Hundreds of Six Nations people and others appeared over the next few hours, managed to get back onto the site and the women formed a line arm in arm with the rest of the community behind them and they walked the OPP off the site. (The video of April 20 will become famous for telling the violent truth about Canada-the-good, once it can safely be released.) Oh btw ... forgot to mention ... the 5 white people on the site were chased off at gunpoint, not charged. Racism is part of Canada's approach too. So long as Canada is respecting treaty and traditional land, according to the law, there is no problem. It is when Canada invades with illegal mining permits, illegal logging permits, illegal development permits, etc. that there are issues. If Canada would obey the laws there would be no problems.

The violence will be done to them (by us) if their land is invaded by police. Well, I see you don't like having your true agenda exposed! "crushed and absorbed" is genocide, my boy, and those were YOUR words. If you don't want to be caught for "advocating genocide", DON'T DO IT!! (Advocating genocide is a crime itself. Would you like to reword that now?) The interesting thing here, with Sharbot Lake, is the presence of hundreds of non-aboriginal supporters ... landowners whose land is also staked for mining. IF the police do go in to Algonquin territory with the intent of throwing them off their own land as they try to prevent its destruction, I predict there will be a huge swell of public support and opposition to police and government. I don't think anybody is going to be "crushed and absorbed" here. And our government has no right to violate the laws this way.

I don't know what that means. So you concede?

They are certainly entitled to compensation and a share of resources. However, the blockades are about the governments' USES of the land. If resource and development money from their land has been fuelling our economy, bringing us 8 straight budget surpluses. JUST WHO ARE THE GREEDY BASTARDS HERE? Indigenous Nations want what is theirs ... what is necessary to their survival as peoples ... the land. Canada wants to keep what was taken, was never and is not ours. JUST WHO ARE THE SELFISH GREEDY LAWLESS BASTARDS HERE? In my opinion it is the governments of Canada ... all of them ... past and present ... federal, provincial and municipal. All blockades in Ontario are issues of mistreatment of the land, destruction and pollution threatening large areas of Canada. They are protecting their own survival, and ours too in the process, against ongoing Canadian government greed, immorality and lawlessness.

Inflammatory ... over the top ... hyperbolic ... suggesting war ... put down hard ... They should be careful and polite about pushing. Not much point claiming land when you are dead or in prison. Because make no mistake. The first nations would be crushed and absorbed if they got too...ummm....pushy. You set the tone ... I took it to the logical conclusion ... "crushed and absorbed" implies destruction of them as a group ... correct? Overlapping claims does not mean the government can ignore them. Nothing can justify the way their legal claims have been ignored. Nothing can even explain our governments collective actions ... except ... that there is no official Canadian intention to settle honourably, only violently. And that will be a war for survival for Indigenous Nations ... a war against genocide. If you don't want your veiled threats outed for their true meaning ... don't make 'veiled' threats: Have the courage to say what you truly mean: I gather you mean ... that if they don't allow Canada to keep their land ... they will be attacked and destroyed as peoples "crushed and absorbed" ... correct?

Canada's ability to accommodate immigrants lags behind its ability to admit them. Some, especially the educated and trained, are saying they would not have come if they had known they would have to work as a chambermaid instead of a doctor, etc. I certainly support any measures that can help resolve this problem. I think the employers need to take more responsibility for training, though. I don't think that can be sloughed off on the government. Our private sector lags FAR behind other developed nations in the amount of resources put into training their own workforce.

You make my point: Canada has chosen war ... illegal, deceitful, inhumane war to 'crush and absorb' Indigenous Nations into the 'body politic' leaving no "Indian problem". Nothing has changed since Duncan Campbell Scott, has it? Thank you for helping me make my point. Canada's single purpose was, is and will be ... destruction of Indigenous Nations through war if necessary ... genocide.

Chuck Strahl recently mentioned that some of the 'land claims' have been waiting for the government's attention for 60 years. Prentice recently said that the suggestion of an INDEPENDENT land claims tribunal was first proposed 60 years ago. The reality is that Indigenous Nations have been patient BEYOND BELIEF waiting for the government to get around to implementing their land rights, Constitutional rights now for 25 years, but not implemented yet. The issue now is that the governments are currently engaged in another fraudulent land theft, a repeat of the original colonial land grab. It works this way: The government has a policy (not a law, and not legal) that land already developed for other uses cannot be 'returned' to Indigenous Nations. So ... guess what they are doing? Guess why, for example, Dalton McGuinty brought in the "Greenbelt"? Because that pushed the development out further ... onto the Haldimand Tract ... Six Nations traditional land, under claim. Building is running rampant out there, and is being stopped now by Six Nations themselves. Indigenous Nations are pushing back. Make no mistake: Our governments ARE waging a war of land fraud against aboriginal people to try to maintain possession of land fraudulently taken in the first place. Federal governments stay silent, despite their "Crown duty" to consult with Indigenous Nations about development on land in dispute. Provincial governments give permits for development, mining, logging, etc. and stay silent despite their "Crown duty to consult" Municipal governments give permits, fail to consult, and scream bloody murder when their building plans are interfered with. Every action of the federal and provincial governments is designed NOT to settle the land claims. Even the way they negotiate, when forced to, is designed to avoid settlement. Not a pretty picture, but it is the truth. All levels of government have their role to play in the second episode of the GREAT CANADIAN LAND FRAUD. Who is addressing the government's responsibilities to Indigenous Nations? Apparently we are to accept that we have no such responsibilities, because apparently our government has chosen to make it war against Indigenous communities instead. Sad choice, imo, and I don't believe that war would be the choice of the Canadian people if we were allowed an opinion. Makes you wonder who runs our 'democracy' when war can be waged without the consent of the people. As I see it ...

Canadians being Canadians ... not liking confrontation and unpleasantness ... if the faith-based schools do make it a Charter challenge, I expect they will get the funding in advance of any challenge. I certainly agree with that. As for the structure of the resulting "Board" ... I agree this would be a good time to consider more integration at that level. There is collaboration already on some 'economies of scale'. There will, no doubt, be integration of curriculum support services as the new schools will need the support and guidance to implement the provincial curriculum. New students are new students, however, and all of the funds to support their integration into the public system MUST be NEW money, imo. I am glad John Tory brought this up. Too bad he didn't really understand the concepts involved so he BLEW IT. Let's speculate on the effects of that on the vote: The non-Christians with kids in the public system would be HORRIFIED by his suggestion of Christian proselytizing in the public schools. The non-Christian faith-based schools might fear that that is is underlying agenda ... to bring them in to the public 'fold' in order to impose Christianity on them. Nope, he loses both ways, I think, as far as the non-Christian vote. The simple difference between respecting and supporting freedom of religion, and imposing one religion on everyone ... apparently escapes him! How sad. I don't see him having much future in politics in Canada, if he doesn't grasp that fundamental respect for differences. Curious ... who nailed him? Was it a reporter who asked that loaded question?

The faith based schools already exist. It is not about 'creating' anything new, just extending funding ... NEW money is required for that. However, since this was John Tory's platform, and he just blew it totally, we don't have to concern ourselves with this issue anymore.

No ... I am saying that is the way it is and that is the way it will stay ... in the public schools.

"He describes perfectly" does he. Where are his references? He describes exactly what he wants to describe in his own polluted mind. This is the diatribe of a racist moron. He has NO CLUE how to live in the world except through power over others, and that is a sad way to live. Thus, he dismisses, denigrates and denies the value of the 'other'. He is a creep of the same ilk as Zundt, a 'white power' nazi, imo, looking for trumped up excuses to bolster his own beliefs in his own racial superiority. Typically, such people have difficulty dealing with cognitive complexity and social complexity, so he reduces the world to suit his ability to only distinguish between simplistic concepts, usually US-THEM. People like this cause wars, if given any credence, because for them it is all about power to control others (to simplify his own world). Not a helpful approach at all ... very prejudiced, based on pseudo-science and very divisive. To Flanagan, it is all about who 'deserves' the power. Kinda like the Dark Ages all over again. imo, of course.

mikedavid, you have repeatedly referred to "ethnic schools". I assume you are referring to Tory's policy on extending funding to faith-based schools. To my knowledge, many of these are (white) Christian schools. Your repeated reference to them as "ethnic" schools displays ignorance and an unattractive prejudice. John Tory is a dead duck. Shot himself in the foot yesterday, suggesting Christian proselytizing should be done in our public schools. NO ONE is impressed with his ignorance of and disrespect for public school values! Tory is not a solution to anything.

"Images" can be deceiving. As they say, it is easy to uphold human rights for MOST of the people, but much more difficult to do so for ALL of the people. In our case, it is aboriginal peiople who have paid the price for our freedoms, and continue to as resources are extracted from the land without any share of revenue going to them. I was commenting that our governments refuse to abide by the law saying that they must paly a consultative role in land disputes. Are we supposed to let them get away with ignoring the law forever? You seem to have a very shallow grasp of our history.

All of the consideration of different possibilities was done by a Citizens Assembly. At this point our choice in the referendum is ... status quo or MMP, which includes status quo as well. I agree about the extra MPP's not representing constituents, just the party: That concerns me. However, it will accomplish its purpose of putting the people's votes in the House more fairly: 30% of the vote is 30% of the seats. I do like that a lot.

Lake Sharbot blockade - Uranium drilling Six Nations land reclamations - greenfield sprawl Grassy Narrows blockade - clear-cutting the Boreal forest Tyendinaga - quarry used as toxic highway dump That's just Ontario. It's about the land.