Peter F

I believe all votes matter, even the handfull of votes for the Loopy party. We vote for the member we want to have represent us in parliament. That is the one and only purpose of a vote. To get frustrated by the fact that too many other voters think different is pointless. How much power should one voter have? If 1 wouldbe Conservative voter does'nt turn up to cast their vote does it matter? If 1 more Conservative voted would it matter? 1 more Lib? 1 vote means very little - as it should. Its the block of votes that matter. If that block keeps voting Cons then whats that to you? Is your vote meaningless? Is each of thier 1 votes meaningless? The big party's encourage us all to think that way of course. More votes for them, or less votes for others - either way they win. Don't fall for it, its a scam. But realize that you are only 1 person. Or you can view elections as horse-races and your vote as a bet....and think you're vote isn't wasted voting for who you don't want or not voting at all and letting the Cons (in you're case) get away with even a larger margin.

It's like the movie 'Fifty First Dates' - every day is brand new and we must start all over again

True, I wouldn't want to drag out any references to Medieval Christian behaviour - since they (unlike your example of the taking of Constantinople by the Ottomans in 1453) are hopelessy out of date. Hows about the slaughter of Bosnian Muslims? or European Jews? Fairly recent examples of mans inhumanity towards Man - and not perpretrated by Muslims. We are as much a bunch of pricks as they are.

Everyone is good at making babies, not just Palestinians. Especially when boredom sets in and there isn't anything better to do. Who gives a damn what the mass media thinks anyways?

That was in the discussion about all the people that would be in on the actual conspiracy to wire the trade centers with explosives. I still agree with that being more likely than the apologists assumption of 10,000 people having to be on it. It is speculation and you have to do lots of it to lend validity to the official conspiracy theory of bin Laden doing it from a cave in Afghanistan because he hates freedom. The part of Dwyers article in question: What about all the calls that the passengers on Flight 93 made on their phones? Their voices were cloned by the Los Alamos laboratories and the calls to their relatives were faked. The FBI was in on it, the CIA was in on it, the US Air Force was in on it (except, of course, those USAF personnel who were killed at the Pentagon), and North American Aerospace Defence Command was in on it (but they kept the Canadians in NORAD out of the loop.) The security companies guarding the World Trade Centre were in on it, Mayor Rudy Giuliani was in on it, the Federal Aviation Administration was in on it, NASA was in on it, and the Pentagon was in on it. At least ten thousand people were in on it. They had to be, or it couldn't have worked. And more than five years later, not one of them has talked. You responded: March 24th So in response to Dwyers claim that ten thousand peaple were in on it (and clearly he is talking about the conspiracy in its entirety, not just setting deomo's), you say he's and idiot because you have already explained 'very plausibly' that only 10 or so people were aware of it all Then, today you say that the 10 or so people you are referring to are just the ones required to set the demolitions. You're a liar, Polly.

So you renounce your March 24th statement that only 10 or so people were aware of it all? That your claim to have explained exactly how that is is no longer valid ? You agree it is impossible for only 10 or so people to be aware of the plot? Have you got a round number at all? Have you even thought about it? Remember we are limiting our discussion to the conspirators prior to 9/11...not including the people who became aware of the conspiracy after 9/11 and have been recruited to cover it up (wich would be another 10 or so folks I suppose) One thing at a time, Polly. We'll get to wether you want to buy a car later

"War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot, nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell." --William Tecumseh Sherman. These words are from his June 19, 1879 address to the Michigan Military Academy. W.T.Sherman Sherman the realist (from the same link): "You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. "The North can make a steam engine, locomotive or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or a pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical and determined people on earth-right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. "You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! "You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it...Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? "At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see that in the end you will surely fail." -- The prophetic words of William Tecumseh Sherman on December 24, 1860 after he learned of South Carolina's secession. Sherman at the time, was superintendent of the Louisiana State Seminary and Military Academy.

Double post - deleted

Thanks for the link. and especially for: The 9/11 Truth Movement in Perspective.

So you renounce your March 24th statement that only 10 or so people were aware of it all? That your claim to have explained exactly how that is is no longer valid ? You agree it is impossible for only 10 or so people to be aware of the plot? Have you got a round number at all? Have you even thought about it? Remember we are limiting our discussion to the conspirators prior to 9/11...not including the people who became aware of the conspiracy after 9/11 and have been recruited to cover it up (wich would be another 10 or so folks I suppose)

I expect that Rove, Rumsfeld, military planners, members of the CFR & Buiderbergs, Paul Martin, Chretien, + more knew what was comming. ...By ten or so people I mean 10 or so people that were directly involved in carrying out the actual attacks - putting bombs into place, etc. There would be another ten or so putting the guidance systems into the planes. So wich is it Polly?

GostHacked: Yes, they heard explosions. But were they reporting suspicious behaviour in the weeks prior to the attack? Did they receive instructions to perform tasks, that with hindsight they now question? They were witnesses to a possible demolition but they are not insiders to the conspiracy - even in a minor way. Of the ten or so conspirators in the know I canthink of two off the top of my head who definately had to be in on the conspiracy. 1. Silverstein. He was aware of the demolitions (according to the demo theory) since he gave the order to 'Pull' wtc7. 2. The unknown person Silverstein was giving the order to: apparently a wheel in the NYFD. That person must also have known that WTC7 was wired for demolition. Feel free to add your own members of the conspiracy. It won't take long to get to ten or so. Once we have the list of the 10 or so in the know I think we will find that despite the use of compartmentalizing tasks, the whole thing would be impossible for 10 or so folks to organize. Oh, I forgot, Number 3, the Bush fellow who was in charge of security of WTC. He had the place shut down for the weekend for no apparent reason and even had the bombsniffing dogs removed so's the 3 or 4 CIA guys could plant the thermite. Oh, and there's another 3 or 4 who definately were aware of the demolitions. That makes 6 or 7 already. Almost there now. 8. Who ever it was that issued the order to NORAD to stand down. That would be Cheney, I believe.

I never actually expect to convince you. You claim to be an engineer but your discussion is cautious not to involve actual evidence. The rate of collapse and mechanics of the collapse already prove 911 was an inside job. All the other stuff is just additional ammunition for people that are not confident in their understanding of basic physics. People like you and stignasty will always ensure that we get a tyrannical government if the government wants to be tyrannical. I claim to be an engineer?? Never have, Polly. Its you that claims to have a BA in Electrical Engineering - yet you have no idea what an EMP is...and you never actually attended the classes - but you taught instead! Regarding the understanding of basic physics, some time ago you were going to produce the explanation of how the 2nd law of thermodynamics explains everything....you were working on it and promised it 'tomorrow'. But like your every other promise of an explanation for us layfolk - you have produced nada. nothing. All talk but no substance. You believe in Black magic; a small group of people conducting Mind Control; Are incapable of critical thought; and a constant liar. you are the biggest bullshitter on this web.

Intelligence experts and histoirians seem to think only 10 or so people would know about the big plot. I guess you agree with the presstitute idiots like Gwyn Dyer who say it had to be 10,000. 911 Officials You're ignoring the obvious, Polly. What is it your polls say? 38% of Americans think you're right and the US govt was involved in 9/11? or is it 40%? That what? 40% of 300 million people? So near half the population of the US thinks there is a coverup going on and that the government was involved in the greatest mass murder in modern history. Yet, surprisinly, none of them were involved in any suspicious activity that they feel could have had something to do with the conspiracy that they believe exists. The Genius of the 10 or so conspirators is absolutely astounding! Not only do they parce up the work of the conspiracy in tiny packets (sortof like the Monty Python skit 'The Funniest Joke in the World') but, on top of that, they only contract out to contractors who, after 9/11, will think the conspiracy theory is bunk Sorry, Polly, no hunting yet.

Polly: Sure have...and none of them have any inside knowledge of the conspiracy or had anything to do with the conspiracy. Polly: Thats alot of contractors. How many floors in each tower? 110? so thats 220 seperate contractors. Even the folks doing the contracting havn't come forward to mention the wierdness of hiring contractors to do one floor and only one floor. They may have not thought much of it at the time - Silverstien says do it so they do it, he's the boss. But afterwards, Polly, afterwards there'd be some mention of it. Since none of the contractors or those placing the contracts would have done nothing wrong - all was on the up-and-up and perfectly legal so as not to raise suspicion - so those involved would have every reason to come forward to say this is what they did and when they did it. Not to mention the obvious paper trail of the numerous contracts Sorry. That hypothosis does'nt hunt.

I actually read Douhet. I found his book amongst my grandfathers boxes when I was 14 or so. I thought it was nuts. I read it again when I found out that Guilo was considered an air power theorist who had alot of influence amongst the various air force chiefs. I still thought it was nuts. Course that was years after WWII with a fair amount of hindsight. Interesting that you associate him with HG Wells...as I consider Douhets book to read more like science fiction than anything else....though I have not read any of Mr.Wells none SF stuff

Another Polly keeper:

GostHacked I will agree that that is reasonable. I'm not sure how reasonable in the case of 9/11 conspiracy, wich due to its complexity, would have involved a hellofalot of compartments. So even if the conspiracy was efficient enough to compartmentalize efficiently they could have pulled off the 9/11 thing (I don't agree with this possibility). But, on 9/12, AFTER the death and destruction, when the folks in the various compartments would start wondering what atrocity they were implicated in. Would not then the various folks in the many compartments say 'Heyyyyy...wait a minit' and then the truth would come out. Insiders blowing the whistle. I was there, I had to run a bunch of electrical cabling in wtc7 a week before, or I was drilling holes in the floors, or I was mocking up wierd phone calls that had remarkably similar text to those cellphone calls, or I was told by my supervisor to make quadrupely shure that I had indeed lost the A/C track. Stuff like that. Yet no insiders.

But back to the point of the thread. Terrorists using children as decoys and using 'WMD' s (Chlorine). Surely there is no one amongst us who think terrorists are good people? I don't. Terrorists are fuckin arseholes who deserve whatever miserable end they meet. There is no morality in using children as shields or blowing up just whoever happens to be there in market places. But then, thats terrorism. Lets all sign a petition and send it to Al Jezeera for broadcast. Something like 'We think terrorists are scum. Please stop being terrorists and join the human race. If possible we recommend terrorists convert to christianity. Try it - you'll like it.' There is terrorism because terrorism works. If the terrorists have cottoned on to using children as decoys then they will use children as decoys. Pointless and random killing of innocents undermines the credibility of the government in power. Thus the persistance of terrorism. The moral West has failed miserably in Iraq. They cannot stop car bombs going off, or children being used as decoys, or chlorine gas being released. All the condemnations in the world don't mean squat, when the terrorists successfully blow up stuff. Every car bomb or IED that goes off is proof that the Gov't of Iraq and its security apparatus is useless. And thus Democracy will not thrive but will fail as it has not the ability to provide security to its citizens. The failure of Western policy in Iraq has been in thinking that the Military might of the USofA will be able to provide the security necessary for Democracy to thrive. It was folly.

ScottSA: Harris always said his night bombing campain would win the war. Not really surprising that he claims that strategic bombing was exceptionally effective. Unfortunately, Harris also directed his bombing campaign against the German populace. His aim was to make thier lives as miserable as possible - and he succeeded admirably. Harris was not pleased with being forced to direct his bombers against industrial targets after the Casablanca conference. He considered it a misuse of resources. Every heavy bomber lost to 'tactical' targets or lost to u-boat patrols was a weakening of his superb weapon. As you have pointed out The real value of the bombing campaign was its direction towards the destruction of the German transportation network beginning in early 1944. And of course the destruction of the Luftwaffe as an effective force once the P47's and P51's appeared in large numbers. It was the destruction of the transportation network, coupled with the loss of the Eastern coalfields to the Russians , that directly led to the diminuation of German industrial output, not the Strategic Bombing of industry . Dog on Porch is correct, I think, to point out the tremendous resources the Germans put into the air defence network to battle the bombers. However, Bomber Commands aim was to destroy the morale of the German workers - not to force Germany to commit vast amounts of material and manpower to defending Germany. So the RAF's bombing campaign was called 'terror bombing' by the Germans and rightly so because that was its very intent - to terrorize. It was right out of Douhets book. But it worked, despite Harris' intent, Thanks to rational direction from the Casablanca conference.

Follow me here...I'm merely pointing out that we are in a war. That war is against Islam. I'm not calling for a war, I'm pointing out that we're already in one. We're not in a war against Islam. Never have been and hopefully never will be. Of course, there are folks that think we should be, but as yet we arn't.

If by 'them' you mean terrorists then I agree - its us or them. well, actually only some-of-us or them. I have no use for terrorists either. They're murderous dorks. Unfortunatly, the concept of Us or them has been morphed by many boneheads to mean Us (the West) or Them (Islam). and thats just bullshit . The problem isn't Muslims. The problem is terrorism.

The extremely devout Muslims don't necessarily reject technology, and yes, I agree that the likelyhood of re-establishing a Caliphate is about as likely as 8-20 conspirators pulling off the Sept 11 2001 conspiracy. But that is neither here nor there. The fact is that Osama et al, in thier religiously soaked-western porn hating minds think God will intervene on thier behalf. Not an unusual belief amongst the devout. Even you agree that those who worship Lucifer are acting on his behalf to take over the world - in fact its the core of your conspiracy. You find that to be an understandable motivation. You don't doubt it, nor do you question their motivation. Why then the doubt about some folks wanting to re-establish a Caliphate and taking steps towards that end? Are only Luciferians capable of intricate planning? The threat is not the pie-in-the-sky idea of a re-established Caliphate. The threat is the willingness of some to kill to achieve thier ends. Of course, to you, No non-Luciferian worshipper is capable of these things. Because, I guess, Lucifer worshipping Illuminati types have an ace up thier sleeves: Black Magic.

Yes, Polly, it is very hard for you to imagine. Remember the Caliphate existed in various forms from the 7th century right up to the end of WWI. The Caliphate, up to the 1500's was the 'Golden Age' of Islamic civilization...and those crazy Islamists established it without any knowledge whatsoever of the construction and use of Nuclear submarines. Is it surprising that some extrememly devout Muslims would like to return to the age of the Caliphs? The good ol days when Islam was respected and feared by the West? I understand, the whole concept isn't dealt with on Youtube or Rense.com or Hawks cafe.

Yes, I see the problem and, as a libertarian, I also see the solution: The problem is that impoverished people are raising children. Solution: remove children from impoverished homes. Ah sweet Liberty. The freedom to be wealthy.