Born Free

I'm with Morris on this one. The cops often screw up an arrest. I believe the OPP made mistakes and any lawyer that knows his stuff will get the serious charges tossed. Happens a lot I bet.

The Liberals didnt make any allegations. Any mud landing on the Harper gang is self inflicted.

Being childish will get you nowhere...

Your hypocricy is overwhelming at times. Do you not have the ability to segregate one event from the other? The Liberals already took the heat for their mob-like governing days. The conservatives took the heat over their hero and ethically challenged Mulroney. His fall from grace (to be polite) was monumental. Now we have a PM that shows poor judgement and a complete disregard for Parliament. I understand how firm your head is up your ass about Harper but please dont confuse it with an attempt to think things through.

Do you have anything to offer this forum other than juvenile pottymouth put downs and fantasy statements about the "left"?

I get the sense that you are trying to replace that Bush..Cheney poster. Try to tell everyone which Liberals are in a panic and how you came to know that?

First we had Chretien and his mob rule. Then we had the ethically challenged Mulroney. Here we go again...

I'll be sure to pay closer attention.

Why must you invent nonsense like this?

This reminds me of the Mulroney Schrieber kinda stuff.

I'm betting that Harper now wishes he dropped Guergis when she was impersonating an asshole at the Charlottetown airport. Harper turned down a second opportunity when he learned about Guergis' staffers writing complimentary letters about her to the newspapers. Oy!

Is it important to you to make stuff up like that?

Unlike your note, I'll try not to insult you. I have previously offered 6 solid reasons why our Canadian government and Canadian military policy and practices must follow the Geneva Convention. Six reasons as ascribed by a retired Col. that make perfect sense. This isnt about what crime is more wrong than another crime. This is about what is right. Cheers,

You and Hillier seem to be of the same mould....

But once the Afghans had the detainee, Utton and other military police had no responsibility — or even interest — in the welfare of their former prisoners. She testified that, so far as she was aware, there was never any order or training for military police to take an interest in or to inspect conditions in Afghan prisons. Utton's testimony offers nothing other than she transferred prisoners and wasnt part of any follow up program to see how they were being treated. It actually reenforces much of Colvin's assertions.

I know you disagree. Here are the views (in the context of Afghanistan) of a retired Col. from the Canadian forces. They have been kept simple and easy to understand why he believes torture is a bad idea. I share those views. One – We believe that we are a humane culture and Canada is obliged to follow the Geneva Convention and that rule of law. Occupying the moral high ground requires some effort. Two – It makes it easier for our Govt officials to discuss human rights issues with foreign governments, particularly as they apply to any detained Canadians. Three – Abused detainees who were not particularly sympathetic to the Taliban faction will likely remuster to the Taliban and take some folks within their extended family and tribe with them. Those who were keen Taliban won’t likely have any useful attitude adjustment although abuse will no doubt add to their enthusiasm. If there is a “hearts and minds” effort in progress, the abuse of Afghans by Afghans is clearly counterproductive. Its rather difficult to win the hearts and minds of Afghans who are missing a lot of fingernails. Four – An enemy who knows that surrender means torture is more likely to fight than surrender. Live prisoners are better than enemies who won’t ever give up and would rather fight to the death. Generals should know this and act accordingly. Five – Negotiating the future of any NATO soldiers captured by the Taliban will not be enhanced by a record of detainee abuse by the NATO supported Afghan government. Six – Detainee abuse is simply unprofessional. If we say we don’t do it we need to ensure that it does not happen to people we detain.

To answer your question... the answer is Yes...regardless of what you think. As a plebe, your argument is absolutely wonderful. However, our government has higher obligations than you might have. Countries are not permitted to turn over their detainees over to another nation if it suspects the detainee will be tortured. If Canada discovers the detainee is being tortured it must prevent the torture from continuing and demand that the prisoner be returned to their custody. This is not what many of us are arguing about. In addition, Canada should have had a process in place to keep informed of the well being of anybody who they had handed over to another country. For reasons best known to him, the Defense Minister and the Chief of Staff General Rick Hiller didnt seem to be bothered insuring that we had such a process in place thereby living up to the terms of the convention. Surely Hillier and Co. must have known that the Afghans were likely going to torture their prisoners. They have that reputation. Ergo, Hillier appears to have been oblivious of his responsibilities. AND THAT is some of the stuff that is bothering so many people.

Whadaya you think? Better still...do you believe that Canada must follow the Geneva Convention or only a little bit?

It appears that you are only interested in discussing foolishly...

Seems like you already have....

Think of it this way... Its like pregnancy. Either she is or isnt pregnant. It's as simple as that.

Im afraid so Morris. Do you really wish to discuss capital punishment in this thread? I know what your views are Morris but then we both know you either dont understand what the international rules are when it comes to dealing with detainess OR perhaps you just dont agree with them. If its the latter, then this becomes an entirely new discussion/debate. Do you really want to discuss abortion in this thread?

Some folks like to play the sleaze style of the Bush/Cheney regime. When you wish to take the PM to task over the detainee issue, you immediatly are charged with being against the troops. Some folks simply dont get it.

Let me put it this way.... -IMO there is no argument that would make the case to support torture. You are either for it or against it. If you try to make an argument on its behalf, then you must be for it. -IMO there is no argument that would make the case to condone the burning of girls faces. You are either for it or against it. If you try to make an argument on its behalf, then you must be for it.

Are you condoning torture of detainees ....regardless of whether its done by Canadian military or done by the Afghans after they were caputured by Canadian soldiers?