Okwaho

I can't speak for other nations but as for the Rotinonshonni (Six Nations) we have in our Kaianerenkowa (Great Law of Peace) the provisions and conditions of going to war. Among those conditions is one that states if an offending nation will not accept the Great Peace than they must suffer the cosequences of attacking us. Those cosequences include conquest or elimination. I've seen these elements of the Great Law of Peace manipulated over and over by people on this site that don't understand it. For example the Huron and Alkonquin allies of the French during the early days of the Fur Trade were incited by the French to attack us. Champlain himself killed two of our chiefs in 1609 during our first introduction to a firearm. His actions brought the full wrath of the Five Nations Confederacy upon them to the extent of the almost total destruction of the Hurons in the latter years. The Huron chose to disengage and accept the Great Law of Peace to which as a result they survive today. All of the nations posessed the knowledge of the Great Law of Peace and the repercussions in breaking it. Accepting the Great Law of Peace does not mean following it as a member of the Confederacy adhering it its contents it simply means do not attack us! That is the very foundation of the Two Row and Silver Covanent Chain with the European Nations. We would allow them to live side by side with us although they have different laws, culture and governments as long as they accept the Great Law Peace. To this day we have never broken that peace. The Crown on the other hand has after repeated objections from us throughout the centuries. As your allies we are still trying to find a peaceful means to right all of the injustices over the centuries. We have never been conquered and have never given away our sovereignty. Sovereignty cannot be "Legally Legislated" away under a unilateral act. We have always held the belief that Crown honour and integrity would prevail and they would honour our agreements. The questions you pose to me of other nations will have to be asked of them. I can only speak for us and the agreements we have with foreign nations. You seem to have afixation on the word conquer. Again we were not conquered. We have agreements between our nations that have been recognized and affirmed within your constitution. If you are swindled out of your home and life savings by a business associate without your knowledge or consent by means of forging your signature does that make you a conqured person? Of course not! It means that your business associate not only broke your law but he broke your trust as well. You can be damn sure you'll be holding them accountable! That's for us and the Crown to decide. The city of Brantford for example holds a 999 year lease with us and as of 1989 owed us $250 billion. Your next questions are not only irrelevant but perverse as we all know different don't we? Canadian law does not apply within Rotinonshonni territory anymore than it would apply in U.S. territory. Perhaps you can tell me. I thought it was a forum to discuss politics etc. I've seen many non-native folks within these threads trolling as well. Most of them change lures when they can't get any bites. As far as other members on threads trying to irk people that's their prerogative. I've seen it on the non-native side as well, but we just have to live with that don't we?

That is exactly what we are doing and holding your government accountable to doing the same!

The treaties are made with the person the citizens have chosen to represent them - in Canada's case, that's the Queen. The Queen is the personal embodiment of the State (holding all of its authority), and so, through her, all treaties are made with the citizens of Canada. I've no doubt that the treaties and royal proclamations lay out limits on where non-Native Canadians can expand their inhabited territory, but the lands retained specifically for First Nations are as much a part of the jurisdiction of the Crown as the rest of the country is. If that was not the case you would be a leaderless, governmentless, lawless people, recognized as a sovereign state by no nation on earth. But, of course, that is not the case. First Nations are subjects of the Crown, must bear passports issued by the Queen of Canada when they travel abroad, must abide by the laws of the Crown, and face the Queen's justices in her courts when they break said laws, even on the reserve. Yes, certain laws of Canada (the treaties, royal procalamations, Indian Act, etc.) spell out what special rights First Nations are entitled to, define their territory, and even allow them a certain level of self-government. But, those laws are still Canadian, enforcable by Canadian courts, and ultimately Native and non-Native Canadians exist under the same governing authority - the Crown of Canada. That Crown has existed in continuity from the very first European settlers to begin their government here, and who made treaties with the leaders of the aborigional populations. So, those proclamations and treaties are still perfectly valid, despite the point that they are now between First Nations and the distinct Canadian Crown. However, as the Queen (or her vice-regal rep.) is bound by constitutional convention to almost always follow the advice of her ministers, any act made by the Crown will be on the recommendation of members of the Canadian Cabinet (the upper part of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada). This applies as much to Native affairs as anything else (and is why there is a Minister for Indian and Northern Affairs), meaning that First Nations within Canada are indeed under the authority of the Canadian government, further proving that though they are treated specially, they are not a sovereign state. Citizens and subjects entering into treaties with their own government? What a joke!!! Nations make treaties with Nations! We are still sovereign as per the original agreements in which the British/Crown/Canada and all others settled in North America. You can debate the issue all you like but you're not a historian or a legal expert so you can't possibly understand the magnitude of the dilemma your governemnt is faced with. You obviously have no comprehension as to the vast amounts of evidence we have in our favor.

"This thread is a constant rehash of the same points over and over." My thoughts exactly! Your historical knowledge is somewhat limited or intenionally suppressed by your opinion! None of our Nations were ever conquered nor was our land taken by force! Our land was taken by deception and we are still sovereign unto ourselves which is why among other things we don't pay your tax and still make treaties with your government.

Please!....weak argument indeed!!!!

A mere fraction of what your corporations have caused throughout the decades with mining, clear cutting, destruction of habitat leading to the extinction of species, PCBs, Dioxins, DDT, herbicides, pesticides need I continue?

There might be certain mohawk warriors training some US soldiers in certain skills -- most likely hunting, trapping, and tracking skills -- but how about all of the other skills that these soldiers must learn that come from a wide variety of sources (i.e. jujitsu for hand to hand combat, etc.)? Don't try to pretend that the Mohawk Warrior is used as a know-all war/killing expert - they are used for just the skills that they know best. You're just daydreaming again about your 'Native Superiority'. It has nothing to do with 'Native Superiority' and everything to with our connection to Mother Earth! As I've said before, me thinks thou pretests racism too much! You have all the earmarks of being one!

Is this the equal to all other citizens that you're refering to? http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=6300 Democracy at its best! Heck I could have told you how to get your federal government to pay for it by offset and it wouldn't have cost you a dime!

Many of us are ex-military of both CAF and U.S.AF. We can be ready and deployed to defend our ally the Crown or ourselves at any time. I served with a Ranger detachment of the 101st ABN. Oh wait a minute...I couldn't have. I'm a subject of the Crown! I've already posted where to find the info you're looking for. Fortunately, freedom triumphs here! It is not a criminal offence to hold a different view that you do, Okwaho. If you believe it is, and you do eventually establish your own nation, your people are in for a very rough time. Eventually, your army will have to turn on your own people! The comment I made about criminals with passports was in response to the slight made at us! Our Nation has already been established for millennium! We have true democracy not the watered down version that is really Capitalism that you and others advocate. Therefore I cannot foresee ever having to use our Rotiskenhrakehte on our own people. You don't understand that because you don't know what our government is.

Your opinion is meaningless. The opinion of the court is a legal ruling based on the information at hand. This ruling has been cited in other court proceedings involving the Six Nations. Watch what happens this time around!!!

Get use to it! We don't have to do anything Canadians do. We are sovereign!!! That's why we don't pay tax to begin with!!!!

Sorry, they have. And they do have the jurisdiction. Case closed. You have revealed over and over the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. Case closed? Far from it. If it were I doubt highly that your government would be seeking dialogue with us and Ontario Attorney General Michael Bryant wouldn't be appealing Judge Marshall's foolhearty ruling! Stay tuned!!!

If you take a little time to read the "Constitution Act 1867" you'll see that section III.9. states: That means that the Queen is the government of Canada. "Crown", "Queen", "Her Majesty", "Regina" are all, in legal terms, synonyms for "Canada." So, being subjects of the Crown, which you are, makes you subject to the laws of the Canadian Crown, or, in other words, to the laws of Canada. The treaties and royal proclamations aren't simple paperwork that floats unanchored in a non-national vacuum. They are laws of Canada, and First Nations are bound by them as much as non-Natives are. So, if Six Nations are under the sovereignty of the Crown then they fall within the Crown's jurisdiction; an area, in geographical terms, which has a name: Canada. Hence, Canadian courts, overseen by judges who are appointed by the Crown to interperet and enforce its laws, have the absolute auhtority to rule on matters concerning First Nations. You can bend it, you can twist it, you can deny it, you can be gullible all you like but you can't change the facts.

This demonstrates how myopic some people are.....They think that we can't have our own sense of national pride (not supremecy) but must be copying some sort of "white culture" (which doesn't exist BTW) to assert our distinction. I am hardly a "native supremacist". Politically, I am a humanist. However, I can see why you would fear our assertion of our place in society as it erodes the authority "white' supremacists" like you have held in the mainstream for far too long. Unless you haven't noticed, the majority of people in major cities (and these are the guys and gals who run your government and big businesses) are brown people - the majority of whom are not only non-caucasian but who are also non-christians. I know this scares the pants off of you Mister v since as a minority in those places you stand not to be heard. It is the fear of the myopic racists that all the ill they have visited upon others in the name of apartheid and racial obstruction will be returned. I certainly understand your fears Mister v and will gladly elevate them should you continue to insist we are out to get you!......I mean if we are going to be labelled as violent antagonists them we might as well play the part for your benefit, right? O:nen Nice try at the spin. You are indeed the native version of a white supremacist. Those "brown" people you speak of are honest, hardworking Canadians who are welcomed with open arms. Whether Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, atheist, or if they worship Darth Vadar, they are all welcomed into this land and can still maintain their beliefs. Their children will become natives of this land, as native as I, you and your offspring are. Nothing to fear there, we are all proud Canadian citizens of a kaleidoscope of colours and it is a joy and privilege to be apart of it. I seek to preserve that because it is a good thing. You, on the other hand, want to create some Six Nations fiefdom, irrespective of what was properly given up by the Six Nations in the past, where the non-native inhabitants either pay you to be allowed to be there or get kicked out (P.S. those non-native inhabitants include the "brown" people). You don't seek a place in Canadian society, you deny the very existence of that society. That is what makes you a native supremacist. "Apartheid". "Racial obstruction". Such lofty words Tsi. The thing about people like yourself is you're always looking into the past, obsessed with it really. Those types tend to get left behind by humanity's relentless forward march. You either go with the flow, adapt to the times and join that march, or you get brushed aside and slowly go the way of the square wheel. You have already doomed yourself with your mindset, but for the sake of future generations of aboriginals, don't brainwash them too. You're afraid of the past because the future has caught up with it. Now the time has come to pay the piper and you can't deal with that fact. It's O.K. for you to say to us forget about all of the past injustices and move on. Yet you fear the fact that we wish to hold accountable the injustice and it terrifies you doesn't it. It's alright for us to forget our sacrifices to convenience you, but whoa to the redman who dare suggest you make sacrifices to make right all the wrongs! You feel that we should remain silent in the presence of our "Great White Masters" for they know what is best for us lowly red folk. Conform all ye red devils be ye like us! Ye shall be free and equal among us! Otherwise ye shall be branded as RACISTS to the world, for we fear you and must propagate the deceptions of our fore fathers to conceal their lies and injustices lest the whole world should know and turn against us on account of our guilt. Me thinks thou protests RACISM too much!!!!

"they wonder why the people of caledonia is upset with them" we do? Your own government is using you as pawns by not coming clean with everyone! We know that some of the people of Caledonia are upset with us but that's due their ignorance.

Canadian courts have reached the conclusion that the Six Nations on the Grand River are subjects of the Crown. First of all the courts have never reached that conclusion and secondly, they don't have the jurisdiction to reach such a conclusion!

You are not making any point. The word "Crown" in Canada today means the "Sovereign Country of Canada". If someone has a legally binding agreement with the "Crown" they have an agreement with "Government of Canada". If some wishes to enforce that agreement they must use the Canadian courts and must submit to the rules defined by the Canadian constitution. There is no other higher authority. When Canada and the US signed NAFTA they both agreed to pass laws in their countries that would allow the other country to seek enforcement of the terms of the deal. If the US breaks the terms of NAFTA then Canada must use the US courts and submit to the terms of the US constitution if it wants to compel the US to live up to the terms of the treaty. In addition, Canada must accept that US politicians control the court system and can change the rules to ensure that the courts produce an outcome that US politicians are happy with. You had best read your constitution again...everything in it is by way of or in right of Her Mejesty! The same goes with your legal system. It is you vs Her Majesty/The Queen/Regina not Canada or The People of Canada!

Not when you have a Governor General who is the Crown's representative in Canada! Your Constitution in regards to our agreements is a reminder to Canadians that they exist. Trust me...we don't need to be reminded! Sorry, what? The Governor General is the representative of the Queen of Canada. How does the presence of a person appointed by the Sovereign to represent her in Canada in her absence affect Canadian sovereignty? The treaties and royal proclamations are laws, not reminders. Natives are bound by these laws as much as non-natives are, meaning that both non-natives and natives are subjects of the Canadian Crown. Being subject to the Crown and it's laws means that Canada is the sovereign state, and First Nations exist within it. Perhaps you all need to come to grips with the fact that Elizabeth II is the Queen of Canada and that you live under her laws, not that she is Queen of Six Nations and all "Canadians" live under her laws. Why do you people continue to reinforce my point about the Crown? The treaties are international laws and recognized and affirmed to Her Subjects in Canadas Contitution. Proclamations are law and the highest law of the Crown. They are edicts straight from the mouth of the King/Queen! She is NOT Queen of Six Nations we are Her allies. There is a major difference between an ally and a subject!

Twist, twist,twist! The Royal Proclamation 1763 ending French-Indian war, The Haldimand Proclamtion 1784 end of the American Revolutionary war, The Jay Treaty between the Crown and the United States 1794 end of the American Revolutionary War states three separate and sovereign peoples: It is agreed that it shall at all Times be free to His Majesty's Subjects, and to the Citizens of the United States, and also to the Indians dwelling on either side of the said Boundary Line. Treaty Of Ghent Nineth Article 1814 end of The War Of 1812 again three separate and sovereign peoples: The United States of America engage to put an end immediately after the Ratification of the present Treaty to hostilities with all the Tribes or Nations of Indians with whom they may be at war at the time of such Ratification, and forthwith to restore to such Tribes or Nations respectively all the possessions, rights, and privileges which they may have enjoyed or been entitled to in one thousand eight hundred and eleven previous to such hostilities. Provided always that such Tribes or Nations shall agree to desist from all hostilities against the United States of America, their Citizens, and Subjects upon the Ratification of the present Treaty being notified to such Tribes or Nations, and shall so desist accordingly. And His Britannic Majesty engages on his part to put an end immediately after the Ratification of the present Treaty to hostilities with all the Tribes or Nations of Indians with whom He may be at war at the time of such Ratification, and forthwith to restore to such Tribes or Nations respectively all the possessions, rights, and privileges, which they may have enjoyed or been entitled to in one thousand eight hundred and eleven previous to such hostilities. Provided always that such Tribes or Nations shall agree to desist from all hostilities against His Britannic Majesty and His Subjects upon the Ratification of the present Treaty being notified to such Tribes or Nations, and shall so desist accordingly. Subjects of the Crown? Not a chance!!! It is quite clear in the treaties following the Royal Proclamtion that we are neither Subjects of the Crown nor American Citizens!!! I keep repeating myself but, go and learn your history to understand the relationship we have always had with Europeans and has been consistantly passed down from the Crown to its Subjects and citizens. The evidence is overwhelmingly on our side!

That's not true! I know many Canadians of the same view as yourself that have passports!!!

You can see a picture of it and read all about it on page 159 in the Time-Life Books, The American Indians series called Realm Of The Iroquois.

What national debt? You are indebted to us.

You do realize how foolish you look about now don't you?

It seems obvious that you believe Canada and the Crown to be two separate entities when they patently are not. Canadian law creates the Canadian Crown, and all executive authority of the country has been vested in it. Thus, the Crown's sovereignty is Canada's sovereignty, the laws of the Crown are Canada's laws; by all accepted logic the Crown is Canada, and Canada is the Crown. So, you're then completely self contradictory when you claim that the Crown recognizes First Nations' sovereignty, but Canada does not. The rights ascribed to Natives within the Constitution were outlined in Proclamations and laws given their authority by the ancestors of the current Queen of Canada, on the advice of their governments, once British, now Canadian. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms you always turn to became law with the signature of the current Queen of Canada, by and on the advice of her Canadian Prime Minister. So, if it's Canadian constitutional law you recognize as giving First Nations their rights, then it is the First Nations who exist within the sovereign state of Canada, and not the other way around. Not when you have a Governor General who is the Crown's representative in Canada! Your Constitution in regards to our agreements is a reminder to Canadians that they exist. Trust me...we don't need to be reminded!

Don't bother with Tsi, the man is the native version of a white supremacist. Let him toil in his pig sty by himself. Wah, wah, wah...when the tables are turned you resort to your old standby racism because you can't win your argument. Want some cheese with your whine?