Hollus

If mandatory minimums are the answer why are americans who've had them for decades fighting for their removal?Families Against Mandatory Minimums

With a gun. Nah nah, I'm not Albertan I swear! Why can they just be thrown into some rehab program? The idea, geoffrey, is to give these extreme cases(the ones who have proven incapable of change through current practices) a place to hang-out and drink, under controled supervision. This is by no means a luxurious rehab program, it provides a general room for them and just enough alcohol to keep them content(like 3oz of sherry or 5 of wine each hour from like 7am to 10pm). This puts people that would otherwise be tying up or overworked policemen, public lawyers, ambulences, hospitol beds etc. in a controled environment where their health, self-estem, ambitions etc, can be cultivated. To have a location were these people can go and not have to focus all their available coherence on their day to day survival of street life, is paramount in the process of them making the decision for a better life. But even if they sit and drink for the rest of their lives, I'd prefer that over having to hire a police force to deal with the unruly, who we wont let into shelters cause they're drunk.

Germany!?!? Germany "get thier bums off the street and into work"? Go back to the drawing board sammy, whats your next bit of brilliant info? "The number of homeless in Federal Republic is increasing. The number of people living on the streets, in shelters and in welfare hotels has been estimated at close to one million."http://www.germany-info.org/relaunch/info/.../security5.html "Just how tough is it being homeless in Germany? According to BAG, in the winter of 1996/1997, 27 people froze to death on the streets of Germany, one of the world’s most prosperous nations." Ya lets model ourselves after Germany 'cause their making great progress Give me a break.

Well this is obviously going nowhere You guys want to dance around the issues, and ignore the merrits to such an approach as the Managed Alcohol Program thats fine. But let me ask you this: What if these alcoholics were so desperate for alcohol, that they would stop at nothing to get it? What if they lost all sense of consciense and moral responsibility in their quest to feed their addiction? What if they were breaking in to our homes and tying up our helpless 80yr old mothers and robbing their jewelery cabnets? How would you wiegh the costs then?

There you go dictating to the scientists how to do their jobs again. You said it yourself. These people know more about it than you do. So why are you still insisting that they're wrong? What areas do we need to focus on? What programs are ineffective? Who said anything about raising taxes? Not Layton. Not me either. Your right that there is fat to be trimmed, but not from the social programs and low income earners. Layton was going to repeal a fat tax break that was given to big business with no strings attached(no incentive for employment, environment, community support.) Child care? Where does this come from, we've been talking about homeless. Well good then. But what are these "half baked programs" you speak of?

And how do you suppose we build more flexibility into the system without more spending and programs? But your starting to understand The Managed Alcohol Program is a perfect example of building more flexibility into the system, and its responding to the challenges as we best understand them.

Mabye its just my opinion, but I think its better to read the links first. That way, you have a better chance of understanding the 'piont in question' rather than reliterate what you've already said... Just my opinion though Okay man, get ready... You might want to sit down, maybe hold on to somthing... Im going to purpose a radical idea... Lets say you have a group of people that are drianing our system by stressing or police force, our justice system, our hospitols, our storefronts. There's programs available for these people, but why dont they use them? Surely any right minded person can atleast keep themselves off the street right? So these people obviously are not interested in the current help thats available. Maybe instead of ignoring them and breeding an underworld that puts stress on public services in our cities, and drains our tax dollars... ...Maybe we should provide a service that reduces the amount of stress they have on public services and teaches them how to better manage their addictions, giving them a better chance of actually making self-change. I believe you have a good hart too Hicksey(figuratively I mean). But I dont think you have an accurate understanding of what its like to be in the talons of addiction, otherwise you would understand my perspective. To give up on these people will be to give up on thousands of peoples sons, daughters, dads, moms, uncles, cousins, highschool friends,etc... Innovative approaches like the Managed Alcohol Program are what we need.

And I think the underlying piont is that you and Sammy are completely disconnected from the idea of social programs and the people that need them. Oh really? You speak as though your quite informed on the subject, why not share what information you have to back this up? Or is this just your personal opinion, like that of Sammy's? Their direction is flawed? You just admitted to these scientists knowing more about the subject than yourself, and then you proclaim that they've got it all wrong without even explaining why, and they should have spent their time "researching why other avenues are not used"... What avenues? I really dont think you guys understand the issue, and I really wish you'd do some more reading on the subject before you post this crap. Here is another link to get you started. Ive noticed that some of you dont click and read them so Ive provided an excert: "A study has shown that one-third of the homeless are people living with mental illness; for example, 75 percent of homeless single women suffer from a mental disorder. Many of those on the street with mental illness or addictions are homeless because they have been discharged from hospitals or jails without proper community resources. There are few adequate plans to support their reintegration into community life once discharged from institutions. In addition, drug-use, alcohol and gambling addictions contribute to persons becoming or remaining homeless."

Well Sammy... Myself and others have been very patient with you on this thread. Each post we've made has had very valid pionts. But its like you dont even read the posts. You've been repeating this motto: "the governement should give them a suite and a resume and get their asses to work." This very statment makes it clear just how out of touch you are in this argument. If you read those links I provided, you would know why your motto won't work. Do you really think the person that developed the Managed Alcolhol Program does not have as good a grasp on the homlessness issue as you do? As I continue to try and explain, while you continue to ignore me: Your ideas might work in a fairytale land-where streets are paved with chocolate and street signs made with candy canes-but here... In the real world, we need real world solutions. Did I call you ignorant? I simply provided you with the definition of ignorence as I see it. If you felt this pertained to yourself than thats somthing you need to think about

Those two straight guys got a civil union. They are currently 'married'. So what, have'nt you ever heard of man and women marrying for convenience?

Im sorry, I just had to piont that out.

Where do you order this stuff, I'm actually interested? Nothing like a little advertising plug for your local organic folks. The one I use is Small Potatoes, but I'm not sure if they have a calgary distribution center. They are www.spud.ca . If you emailed them from the contact us page, they are very good at getting back to you and probably could recommend a service in your area if they are not already there. Thanks! Apparently they deliver on Thursdays, I'm going to order some stuff up. They don't deliver in Montreal. Apparently they also don't deliver east of Calgary. Maybe a good business idea TML

Ya we're a little off topic

Man, you're right about the Stones. It's not like Motown hasn't created a whole genre in popular music. Shudda been Sly and the Family Stone and Rare Earth at 1/2 time. Oops, showing my age. I was hoping Janet would come back so I could see her other boob

Actually depressed commodity prices are currently being blamed on chronic over-production. The focus in recent agricultural discussions is how to take land out of production. While half the world starves? I'm not talking specifically Canada. In the 3rd world growth hormones and biotech could end alot of hunger. Thats the critical trade off, I don't know what to think about that. Not quite. There are many cases of western companies impossing our 'better' agricultural ways in other countries with dissasterous results. The latest biotech craze is among them. "Free people with free information are saying no to genetically engineered food for both ecological and health reasons. However, genetic engineering is being imposed on the world by a handful of global corporations with the backing of one powerful government." Food slavery

Maybe that is why Bovine Growth Hormone is banned in Canada, and why milk is destroyed if antibiotics are found in milk? Most of the critisicm of Farming practices and the horror stories you hear about milk generally come from things that happen to the south in america where laws are generally more lax then what is found in Canada. If you are really bored and have soem tiem to do some reading you could check out a number of such standards here. Generally speaking we may need to put even more effort into such standards but I belive some of your major worries about canadian farming are misplaced. Some good pionts, canada is a little better than others. Dont drink the milk in the states though, cause they use bovine growth hormone. My understanding of this issue is in the context of US and Canadian practice. Thanks for the link, but it doesnt offer much of a focused view on quality control, and no doubt the industry lobbiest are sure of that. Allow me to introduce this very biased(though relevent) link:animal rights(this might ruin your appitite) Its mostly in the context of animal rights, but you can see the condition of your dinner. We still process downer cows, and there are plenty of growth hormones and anti-biotics to pollute us and our environment.

I agree with ya. There is no way to reform destructive industry practice with out making huge sacrifices to our economic and political position. But this capatilist gravy train aint gonna run forever so sooner or later these sacrifices are going to have to be made. The way I see it the longer we wait the more complicated our future becomes.

Largely the reason Ive become vegetarian. But biotech is getting scary. Genetically modified veggies and fruit have not hade much studies either. Creating crops that will not progress without sraying with activator. What the hell is industry doing?

Yes your wrong. ...how 'bout this: People are ignorant because they are lazy. They base all their ideas off of miss-interpretated information and false preconceptions. They dissregard provided links by others because they are to lazy to think of anything that dosent directly effect them(hence, they're main concern of how much they're taxed). They attack and disregard people who's ideas conflict their own, because logic threatens their ignorence and challenges them to reconize the self-serving attitdue they've wraped themselves in. But hey. Can you blame them? Reality is pretty tough, and when you dont have ignorence to shade you from the harsh light of the real world, its easier to understand how someone could find themselves on the street with a debilitating illness(chronic alcoholism).

...please, just read the links :angry: Before you go developing motto's on how to deal with certian segments of our population, atleast take the time to educate yourself on the issue.

Wow! then you'll really be perturbed when I start a thread Ive been thinking about, to debate the possibilties of regulating the black market. I dont understand your failure to reconize the potential to ease the burden on our system, by addressing the very issues that cause the burden. Why don't you google corporate welfare and bitch about that? Since when did we govern by principle? We make decisions based on what provides the best outcome for us all(or atleast try to). So my tax dollars going towards booze for frikkin junkies helps me... Oh my God, Ive been Born Again! (Sarcasm) Yes. It helps society. Which indirectly helps you. Your response leaves my to ask you again: "What do you know about the 'wine for homless' program? Can you atleast acknowledge what the findings of the program were? Should I assume your completely insensitive to the struggle against homlessness?" I put some links up so you could familiarize yourself with the Managed Alcohol Program

Wow! then you'll really be perturbed when I start a thread Ive been thinking about, to debate the possibilties of regulating the black market. I dont understand your failure to reconize the potential to ease the burden on our system, by addressing the very issues that cause the burden. Why don't you google corporate welfare and bitch about that? Since when did we govern by principle? We make decisions based on what provides the best outcome for us all(or atleast try to).

Maybe start with one blunder, and address it through the perspective of canadian federal politics. Then provide an idea of how to make some progress, or a viewpiont of things holding us back. Happy posting

I think the progress on this issue has to come from everyone taking a good hard look at the process their food goes through from birth to dinner. I think when enough people become conscious of the health, environment and animal rights concerns, they will seek out more healthier and humane alternatives. Only then will we see change in industry practice.

FTALawer: I certianly do not want to evoke sympathy for the criminals either. Im interested what your opinion is on how to lower recidivism rates? I think its obvious the individual needs to make the decision for change, but if we're going to throw them into hell we've got to quit fooling ourselves into thinking they can be released in 5-10 years. I think its a little unrealistic to think we can lock up every violent offender for life. If we really want to rehabilitate people should'nt we to do somthing about the 'brick to the head' environment inside the jails. I know I sound like a bleeding hart, but im more concerned about reoffenses and how our prisons can best prevent them. How can we expect a violent person to change if we cant even set-forth civil behavior in detention.