Hydraboss

New way $2.00 input cost on 10 units $2.50 gross revenue on 10 units $0.125 tax paid @ 5% tax on gross revenue $2.25 total input and tax $0.37 net profit $0.038 net profit per unit Old way $2.00 input cost on 10 units $2.50 gross revenue on 10 units $0.50 gross profit $0.18 tax paid @ 36% tax on gross profit $0.32 net profit (after tax) on 10 units $0.032 net profit per unit Now who is competitive? Your way is 36% tax, my way is 5%.

And that, my friend, is the arguement against high taxes.The 36% number I used absolutely demonstrates why high taxes on any level are detrimental to trade and the economy etal. Take any example and reduce the tax number to where we become competitive. This is also why governments needs to be reasonable in their spending habits. Too much spending equals too much taxation which equals too much harm to the country's economy. Simple fix for your example: Drop the tax rate and stimulate the economy.

Most business do not operate with anything close to the profit margin that you used in your example. Try doing your calculations based on a business with a more realistic profit margin:Package of lemonade $1.00 (makes 10 glasses) Employee (paid piece-work) $0.10 per glass Cost of one glass $0.20 Glass sells for $0.25 Total revenue $2.50 Tax paid at 36% = $0.90 Loss of $0.40 As you can see a business which would be economical is rendered uneconomic by a stupid tax system. The net result is the business will close and the gov't gets nothing. However, the gov't could allow the company to deduct its input costs and only tax the added value. In this case the gov't gets $0.18 and the company has a profit of $0.32. This means the tax payer is $0.18 ahead compared to your system where the taxpayer gets nothing. The taxpayer got super-cheap lemonade, and the government (ie. taxpayer) got $0.90. The seller was stupid.

Then a glass of lemonade in Canada has to cost more than $0.32. $0.32 per glass $3.20 gross revenue $3.20 X 36% = $1.15 tax paid $2.00 input costs $0.048 net profit (break-even point) Obviously, you would have to charge more than $0.32 a glass or you are stupid and deserve to go bankrupt. Why should taxpayers have to account fot the additional tax in order for the seller to make more money? Math can show anything you want. Just look at polls. My idea can beat up your idea.

If I operate a lemonade stand, and I hire a person to mix and sell the drink and then I deduct the employee and the raw materials cost from my taxable income, then it is false income and taxpayers are responsible. Package of lemonade $1.00 (makes 10 glasses) Employee (paid piece-work) $0.10 per glass Cost of one glass $0.20 Glass sells for $1.00 Total revenue $10.00 Tax paid at 36% = $3.60 Profit of $6.40 If I can deduct the costs pre-tax: Total revenue $10.00 Less expenses of $2.00 Adjusted revenue of $8.00 Tax paid at 36% = $2.88 $3.60 - $2.88 = $0.72 Who makes up the missing $0.72? The taxpayers. Now, what if these numbers were in the billions? All of a sudden it becomes $720,000,000 in missing tax that should have been paid by the manufacturer. How does your tax-paying rear end feel now?

BS. Car manufacturers purchase steel and pay personnel. They pass those costs onto consumers directly in the price of their products. By allowing them to deduct these as non-taxable expenses, the government covers the costs. The taxpayer supplies the government, so ALL taxpayers are paying for the costs to produce the products that only SOME taxpayers buy. Communism. If they can't be profitable by assessing a proper price point, they should get out of the business.

I like that idea, it makes sense, and a person in my boat would not have a problem with it, hell i'd be trying to pay it off as fast as i could. Some lefty though is gonna have problems with it. There are some people who don't make any money such as a hobo, they're part of the 35 million and they can't pay their share, who pays it guys like us. then you have your refugees that plug up the welfare system, then there is the others on the welfare system, they'd be paying off the debt with their welfare cheques, may as well cut welfare. Then there is the status Indians, I'm not even going to open that can of worms. So in reality the average Canadian would have to pay 100 bucks a month according to your plan and your low income earners are gonna be raising hell that they get docked 100 bucks a month. I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. Thanks for proving my point. No one is responsible for paying off anyone else's debt. If someone doesn't pay, then the Debt Reduction Immigration Fund is used. If the Fund is empty, get more immigrants. As for people who don't pay, how is that any different than what happens in society now? You get an R9 on your credit bureau and you can't borrow money anymore. The welfare system will have to deal with it. Guess no more Canadian for those guys...just cheap beer from now on.

CA, Hey! Quit stealing my lines! (I was kind of thinkin' of hiding that part.) Riverwind, The per capita split of the debt would be pre-separation. As for provincial separation (proper), whoever is listed as having that province as their province of residence is free to come along for the ride. Don't like it? Move. Remember, this would only work after positive referendum of provincial constituents. There will always be people who do not like what the majority say, all you have to do is read the MLW to know that. As for moving back - talk to the new immigration minister.

But the question is, why should they have any business expenses to deduct? Just give businesses the same tax structure (play with the percentage as much as you like), and let them fend for themselves. The vast, vast majority of businesses would come out ahead on a flat tax system. NO ONE NEEDS DEDUCTIONS!

And as a matter of fact I do have a receipt. It went through the wash in my other jeans and the ink kind of smeared, but I have it! The province is mine.

Absolutely. Would it fly? Probably not. But would the fact that there even was a referendum ever scare the shit out of the rest of the oil & gas consuming country. God, I would love to be the one read the results on national television and watch the fun.

How about this? Take the entire accumulated debt (federal debt & CPP unfunded liability) and break it per capita. (Someone with numbers please jump in and correct this rounded off mess) $1,000,000,000,000 (1 trillion dollars debt) / 35,000,000 (35 million people) = $28,571.43 per person Allow every man, woman and child living in the country to assume this debt as a mortgage. 50 year term at 0% interest. Monthly payment of $47.62 per person. Institute the same "debt mortgage" on every man, woman and child immigrant for the next 50 years that gets put aside for bad debts (unpaid by underhanded Canadians). The country (proper) is debt free tomorrow, and the overall debt (taxpayers) is paid off in 50 years. More immigration = faster payoff. Now even the anti-immigration crowd likes newcomers! Don't want to pay? - Don't want to stay.

If I understand the way the system works, and I believe that I do... The federal government collects federal and provincial taxes from taxpayers. The federal government sends the entire provincial collection amount to the provinces. The provincial government sends a huge amount of these taxes to the federal government. The federal government sends a portion of these taxes to the provinces as transfer payments. The provincial government (of have provinces) sends a huge amount of these taxes to the federal government as equalization payments. The federal government sends a huge amount of these taxes to the have-not provinces as equalization payments. The federal government threatens the provinces (have and have-not) with withholding of these transfers if the they don't bow to the will of the federal government. Taxpayers pay GST to retailers. Retailers collect the GST and send it to the federal government The federal government collects the GST and then sends a portion of it back to the taxpayers that paid it. Gas stations collect Federal Excise tax at the pumps and send it to the provincial government. The provinces collect the Federal Excise tax and send it to the federal government. The federal government collects the Federal Excise tax and sends a portion of it back to the provinces. The provinces collect the portion of the Federal Excise tax that was sent back to them and sends a portion of it to municipal governments. And so on, and so on.... Sorry Wilber, but could you explain the whole "duplication is expensive" theme to me again? Maybe Kwebek has the right idea. Collect locally-spend locally.

Of course, you and I both know this will never happen. Government makes up 36% (I believe this is right, correct me if I'm not) of Canada's employment numbers. How many people would be out of their cushy government tax and tax-related jobs if the system basically could be handled by a Pentium II with a shit-load of memory. How many accountants would be out of work if the federal/provincial tax form read as follows: Line 150 Enter your gross earnings from all employers during the tax year 2006 Line 151 Deduct $17,185 from line 150 Line 152 Calculate 36% of the result of line 151 [(Gross earnings - $17,185) X .36] Line 153 Send a cheque for the amount of line 152 to us and have a nice year. See you in 2007. Schedule 4 If you have any RRSP's, good for you! Schedule 5 If you are a Treaty Indian under the Indian Act of Canada, good for you. Now file your taxes. Schedule 6a If you are requesting a portion of paid GST be returned, tough luck. It would be nice, though.

Actually, I did address the tax-splitting issue. The answer is no splitting for anyone. Flat tax of say (insert your own number here) percent. 20%? 30%? 45%? Fine. Make $30,000 and the first, say, $15,000 is tax-exempt. The remainder is taxed at 45%. Result: $6,750 tax paid. Make $80,000. Same scenario. Result: $29,250 tax paid. Make $13,750. Result: $0.00 tax paid. Make $1,200,000. Result: $533,250 tax paid. No loopholes, no tax breaks, no shelters. No more taxes to be paid (this includes federal and provincial only). Governments must work out the details of who gets how much and for what, including social safety net crap and welfare. No more GST credit BS. No 33% tax-exempt status for politicians. No reduction for RRSP's. Save or starve. Paying too much tax? Tell your politician with your vote.

And us whiny Albertans too. Show us the door. We've been looking for it, so if you know where it is please point it out.

How to make a Canadian Pie, The Sequel 8 cups - Alberta 10 cups - Ontario 1/4 cup - British Columbia Mix ingredients in Ottawa. Take out 6 cups and give to Kwebec. Promise Kwebec that there is more coming. Divide remainder of mixture amongst remaining provinces and territories. Let Alberta and Ontario simmer. Add 4 more cups - Alberta Add 5 more cups - Ontario Sprinkle Liberally with federal government BS and platitudes. Remove 6 cups and give to Kwebec. Send remainder of mixture to overseas countries that no one has ever heard of. Bring to boil for 101 years. Place in separatist oven and heat until it explodes. This is no longer the Alberta of our parents and grandparents. It is the Alberta of my generation and my children's generation. Separate now.

Flat tax. The only way. An evenly applied flat tax with a non-taxable base is the only fair way to administer the system. 100% collected by the provinces, and then the feds basically send an invoice to them for the negotiated amount that is to be transferred for federal jurisdiction items. Get rid of all loopholes and tax breaks. Just because someone makes more money, they should not have to subsidize anyone.

Which is exactly why I endorse paying our share AGAIN. It's BS, but it ends the squabbling. The ROC would not be justified in bitching anymore. Alberta can handle it's share AGAIN, but then the welfare ends. Forever. If there is an "economic disaster", it would not happen in Alberta. If it does, that's our problem and you can be assured that we won't come crying to the ROC for help. Time for the ROC to quit whining, and move the hell out of Mom and Dad's house.

Jerry, I agree that we have more than paid what we owe, but since I do not endorse a "nasty breakup" with the ROC, I think we could be the grown-ups here and accept a per capita share of the national debt and a per capita (or whatever the accepted formula is) portion of the CPP unfunded liability. This allows us to leave on good terms and maintain excellent trading relationships with the ROC and the international community. Can Ontario stand alone? Maybe. It's up to them to try if they want to. Geoffrey, you believe in reworking a deal that is fair. It will never happen. The people with the power will not give up the power. I heard this everytime I brought up separation. "Wait till the Liberals take power, then things will change." "Wait till the CPC takes power, then things will change." Nothing will change. Ever. Optimism is great as long as there is something to be optimistic about. At your stage in life you have what I had...a believe that Canada can be better. Keep it for as long as you can. Mine is long gone. Separation is the only way Alberta will end the "prisoner that dropped the soap" reality. I'm tired of it, and I don't want my kids to have to be as cynical as I have become.

This would amount to another version of equalization transfer payments. Give me back my money.

But, August, your logic only stands with the assumption that government has to maintain the same amount of tax revenue. If that revenue level must remain constant, then yes, the taxes must go up for another segment of society. The same must then apply to upper income earners if the tax exempt levels rise. Don't get me wrong, I do not support income-splitting for tax purposes. It's BS. However, I do believe that income tas should be chopped back drastically to allow the federal government to only collect a net-zero amount of finances, allowing additional taxation to pay debt and unfunded liabilities (we made the mess, so it's ours to clean up). Provinces should collect the lion's share of tax money, and if I feel it is too high, I move.

Granted, there are differences in prior state of some provinces. But what about now? What are your feelings at this time, with the Confederation as it is? We can always look back and say "150 years ago, *this* was the case and therefore *this* must happen", but what about the rights (only term I could think of) of a province to become an independant state? Why should different answers apply to different provinces?

As for immigration influx, Alberta is already dealing with that and has been for some time. As for forcing a province to accept financial responsiblity, it could be done but it would not be pretty (trade embargoes, etc.). I would like to think that it would not come to that, but who knows? As for programs that are provincial jurisdiction, health care and education fit that description. Yet the federal government uses transfer payments to "equalize" services across the country. Should they back out of that? Would they ever give up the self-imposed responsibility of nurse-maiding "have-not" provinces?

My apologies. I should have worded it differently to read "If the majority of residents of a province wish for the province to seperate...." Thanks for pointing that out.