MightyAC

Why are you an atheist? Hmmm maybe you're rational or reasonable. Maybe you didn't have religion forced on you as a child and were able to think freely. Maybe you grew up Catholic and were sick of all the guilt and hypocrisy which led you to examine your beliefs which almost always leads to atheism. No...my guess is god didn't conform to your wishes and to punish him you tell people that you do not believe. That's what I am doing to Santa. That fat SOB didn't bring me the light sabre I wanted when I was 6 so I punished him with intense non-belief. I know that mother culture tells us that santa died on a cross so kids could have presents, but I suspect most of those presents are just manufactured in third world countries for large multinational corps who sell them to parents.

I have more questions for those that believe that a god created the universe and but has a special affinity for humans. 1) Why would an omnipotent creator with such an affinity for humans put us on a planet that can only support life for another 1B years? 2) Do you believe there is life in other parts of the universe and the same creator has a special affinity for those lifeforms as well? 2a) If not why would a creator build such a massive universe and only place the chosen humans on one tiny insignificant planet, with a limited lifespan?

So some who are unsatisfied with our current knowledge of our own universe need to resort to god belief to fill in the gaps. They believe that a god must have created the universe because the universe is something and something cannot come from nothing. Then when faced with with questions about the origins of the creator are somehow satisfied with the idea that the creator was always there. Isn't it easier to accept that we currently do not completely understand the origins of our universe than to believe a super complex creator sprang from nothing and created the universe?

I know several people that resort to god belief when faced with the staggering number of phenomenon that had to work out just right in order for us to exist. I can never understand how they can stop there though. How can you not question what created the creator?

I see the term anagogy used in different ways. I assume by anagogic effect you are referring to a uplifting or spiritual feeling that can be produced in certain situations. Based on that assumption I think your opinion that the anagogic effect of ritual, actions and behaviours creates faith is backwards. I would argue that this effect is not felt by the many religious folk, just putting in time and going through the motions. I have no doubt that the truly faithful can experience this effect. However, like the placebo effect I don't think people actually have faith without belief in a real god in the first place. Anyway, a real feeling produced by real rituals does not make the underlying mythology real or true.

Their fantastic work is being eroded though. Things aren't any better at home either. Here in Ontario we still have a publicly funded Catholic school system and the name of a god in our national anthem. Unbelievable for this day and age. The problem is that, like labour unions, religious groups are easy to organize and made to vote in unison on single issues. Which makes them very unpalatable for politicians to touch. In contrast organizing non-believers or at least the religiously indifferent has been equated to herding cats. I'm not sure what the solution is to this problem. My only idea so far has been a referendum. At least that way it becomes a single issue, separate from a politician's election platform. In the meantime we have to continue to attack irrationality and erode religious certainty.

Granted, art, literature, music, etc have physiological effects on us. However, I am sure you will agree there is a difference between a fictional character in literature vs an actual being. The fictional character certainly does exist in text, drawings and in imagination however, using existence in this form is simply changing or expanding the intended meaning of existence from my previous examples. The religious do not perform rituals, do charity work, kill abortion doctors, blow up building or send prayers to gods they believe are only real in literature or imagination; they do these things because they believe the gods and teachings are real. Placebos can illicit physiological change in patients as well but again, only if they believe the drug was real. So if we grant unicorns pseudo or fictional reality we must also grant religion fictional reality as well, but that is not what people have faith in.

Agreed...though I did not dispute that or suggest anything is possible.

I didn't actually respond to one of your posts, I did use unicorns in an example though. I'm not arguing that unicorns exist. I was saying that we cannot absolutely disprove their existence but that like religion, evidence and probability make its existence damn near impossible. Unicorn believers may claim the entire earth has not been explored or that new species are discovered every day. Hell an uncontacted tribe of humans was discovered in a rain forest last year.

Great question. Like you, I think that once humans evolved to be intelligent enough to contemplate life, death, the universe and everything religion was invented to explain unknown phenomenon. So now that most of what religions attempted to explain, has been properly explained by science why is religion still here? In my opinion, belief systems proved to be a very good way to control the masses and have evolved to do just that. They are powerful political forces designed to give those on top power in this life, not followers paradise in the next. Those in power work hard to stay there and thus religion works hard to discredit science amongst its members. It also indoctrinates children before they are rational thinking beings and threatens dire consequences for those who should ever lose faith. Religion is part of the culture and is passed on as such. It is in decline amongst the educated and in time it will vanish. Nothing need take its place but I suspect that new age faiths with appear. Others will adopted Deepak Chopra, the universe will provide, type belief systems. I sincerely hope religion is replaced with simple secular humanism. I watched an interesting lecture by Daniel Dennet titled "Good reasons for believing in God" that partially deals with this topic. Dan's view is that most that claim belief do not fully believe or really analyze their beliefs, they are too busy living their lives. Those that do analyze their belief systems do realize, like the rest of us, that they are full of numerous fallacies, contradictions and logic problems. He then discuss several ways in which they deal with it. Richard Dawkins discusses this topic in his book "The selfish gene". He coined the term meme to represent a unit of culture that is passed along and evolves over time. Very interesting stuff.

We all believe many ideas without absolute proof or complete understanding. However, evidence and probability plays a role. For example I cannot say for sure that unicorns do not exist, however, evidence supports their lack of existence. It has never been found alive or dead, there are no fossils and there is evidence that animals like the Oryx or an old extinct rhino type thing may have lead to the unicorn myth, etc. So despite knowing that we have not searched every inch of the earth or uncovered every fossil, reason, evidence and probability let me believe with a great amount of certainty that unicorns are a myth. Belief in a religion or superstition works in the opposite direction. The preponderance of evidence suggests that religion is a man made fairytale. The religious even take pride in their strong faith, which is just belief without evidence. In this case reason, evidence and probability must be thrown out the window in order to believe.

Your beliefs aren't being ridiculed they are being debated. At the same time Christianity also commands violence and displays a very violent, vengeful god. Modern Christianity likes to cherry pick the good parts and ignore the unsavory. That very act shows us that morality comes from people and society, not religion. Not that you made that claim, but many do. I don't think outlawing belief is a good idea. Rather I think it is time that we stop protecting religion from debate and public scrutiny and time to stop indoctrinating children. Impossible to stop the latter I know, but still removing the public taboo from religious criticism could go a long way to rooting out belief, amongst educated, moderates anyway.

By definition agnosticism simply means the truth of a claim is unknowable. Since many ideas, religion included are unfalsifiable nobody can say for sure they do not exist. However, for me, when something has such a low possibility of being true, the fence sitting, agnostic stance isn't enough. For example are you agnostic about the existence of unicorns? We can't fully disprove their existence but in all likelihood it is safe to be a-unicornists.

SOME conservatives support militia groups, as do SOME liberals but not all of them. ALL church going religious folk lend power and support to their religions which makes them enablers. A conservative that donated a riffle or helped organize a militia fundraiser would be an enabler, but someone that just believes in less government and less regulation would not necessarily be an enabler. Similarly, KKK members are Christians that largely justify their hateful beliefs with scriptures, but not all Christians are KKK enablers. Do you see the difference?

The fact that nobody really believes in a Flying Spaghetti monster does not make it more or less true than any other unfalsifiable man made belief. Give me your children and I will create FSM believers and in no time at all a real religion is born. The point is we cannot fully disprove the existence of many things and that does not make them true. The idea that any belief system is above debate or criticism is absurd. As for your point that you expect atheists would be nicer to witches than Baptists, who knows? I can't speak for all non-believers; atheists aren't a collective with a belief system, they simply share an non-belief in gods. You and I likely share a similar non-belief in most mythologies, I just happen to not believe in one more than you. Personally, I think all religions are equally false though I do not treat them equally. Some belief systems lead people to do much more evil than others. Abrahamic faiths justify and/or command many violent and immoral acts whereas Jainism commands complete non-violence. Since a Jain is very unlikely to become a suicide bomber or kill an abortion doctor I have fewer problems with their beliefs than others. I have a friend that attended a Baptist elementary school. He was taught at a very young age to deny and ridicule evolution. In my opinion, the harm Baptists are doing by teaching people to deny scientific evidence makes them more problematic than pagan witches.

All conservatives are not members of militia groups. Militia groups also do not receive power and funding from conservatives as a whole, whereas religions do. I think a more apt analogy would be a membership in the Ku Klux Klan or Hamas. Even if you just participate in the charity efforts and stayed away from the lynchings and rocket attacks you still lend some power and support to a group that does evil deeds.

I'm not making fun of peoples' metaphysical beliefs. I simply showed that there are many ideas that we cannot fully disprove yet that does not by process of elimination make them true.When we debate and discuss ideas why would one person's belief in an Abrahamic god demand different treatment than another person's belief in pixies, Thor, Zeus, leprechauns, witchcraft, a living Elvis or the flying spaghetti monster?

You are right, people can be evil regardless of their beliefs. The difference is that evil is not done in the name of atheism whereas scriptures command evil and immoral acts. The fact that many of the immoral rules are ignored by theists shows that morality does not come from religion.

I'm not a statistician but I would assign very similar probabilities to the existence of leprechauns, unicorns, mermaids, a god and the flying spaghetti monster. Sure the likelihood of their existence hovers near zero but we cannot completely rule out the possibility can we?

I guess I would be considered an atheist, but I find labeling a lack of belief in something to be a silly practice. We don't have to label our lack of belief in other absurd ideas. I don't declare my lack of belief in ghosts, astrology or a living Elvis.

I'm not just bothered by extremists I am also bothered by the lax or docile faithful that act as enablers.

The information was requested, the government took its time and handed over a completely blacked out document. This was done just prior to their spring break. Yes the same break that Harper said they'd do without to make up for proroguing. Since, parliament is not sitting the Contempt motion cannot be filed, but it will be filed very soon.

For me the key word is insult. It seems that disagreeing with religious positions or the political actions of organized religion is considered an insult. People go out of their way to be insulted or offended. It should be OK to disagree with Christianity, Islam, Judaism or even the actions of Israel but many would have us believe that somehow religious beliefs are untouchable.

By withholding documents from parliament Harper and the Con government are breaking constitutional law. When the government operates outside the rule of constitutional law we cease to be a democracy. Nobody cares but this is larger than a simple cover up now. Operating outside the law, attempting to remove checks and balances, intimidating party members and the press, gag orders, firing those that have an independent thought, attacking science and reason. Our PM has a fair amount in common with George Dubya Bush.

What, another example of the fact that you are a racist bumbling idiot?! There is evidence that oil companies may be scooping excess profit and that a woman may be filing a waste of time lawsuit but there is nothing in this story to do with the terms welfare state.The working poor aren't paying a 50% tax rate either. You are an absolute fucking idiot. I can no longer tolerate this forum due to your participation. This post isn’t even that bad I just can’t tolerate you anymore. It is my fault for having such little patience and so I will withdraw but I can not filter through your BS to read the other posts especially when you are such a ubiquitous poster. It is too hard to keep the gist of a thread while skipping every third post because it was made by you. I will miss reading content of most of the contributors to this forum but I wish the worst on you. I really hope you see the light before you are beat to death after verbally assaulting someone for being non-Christian or non-white....but then again you are probably a coward in person aren't you? Stupid loud mouthed bigots like yourself tend to be mild mannered in public. Anyway, I'm willing to bet the superior minds on this forum post at others and I will be able to hear there ideas elsewhere. I can only hope, for the people that remain on this site, that you are fired from your job, and are replaced by a visible minority (preferably a Hindu, Muslim or pagan), and can no longer afford internet access. I think your are the lowest of the low and I can only dream that I will one day run into you in a pub in Mississauga and give you a black eye in person. I'm not a violent man but one can dream right? Hey when I’m in the area I visit Failte near Square One, any chance I could assault you there? Cheers to all.... In a final word on this forum, that very few will read, fight for what you believe in, fight for democracy, fight for electoral reform and fight the consolidation of power like what Harper is doing now. Anyway, I'm done... I hope to one day expand my own business site to include a separate section with a forum of its own. Maybe I'll use this same engine... $300 is pretty damn cheap. Cheers MAC Alright…commence the permanent ban……………now.