Scott75

The point, Phoenix75, is that you are desperately searching for a way to sow confusion into this topic. On the contrary, I'm trying to focus on the evidence rather than disparaging sources of information that I disagree with for whatever reason. After a lot of posting on this subject, however, I'm wondering if it's really worth much more of my time with the current responders in this thread. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't get them to drink.

Biological sex is ALWAYS sufficient; it's why society needs to stick with it. Some people are intersex, biologically. I'm guessing you didn't read the article I linked to in my previous post. You can still do so if you wish: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity/whats-intersex

Meanings of words do not change overnight. I agree with you there. You may have noticed that "a good amount of people" is a rather vague. How many people would it be? The most important thing, I think, is not really the number of people backing a word, but the amount of clout they have. It goes back to what I said in an earlier post about law, specifically about it being decided by who has the clout. Right now, there are enough people in what we could call the old guard of the gender definition debate that the new definitions of gender and other gender words still haven't succeeded in being in various dictionaries. But it's in a few and I believe that number will grow over time. Hand in hand with this are court cases where some transgender people are winning as I've already pointed out in a previous post to you. Oh, you can, and indeed we do have this when it comes to gender and other gender words, but I think that generally speaking, people would prefer to have just one definition of common words like gender. Eventually, I think one definition will become the winner and the other will become what dictionaries like to call "archaic".

Intersex? Dude...this is silly. Nobody but the most Tweenkie would even consider this. It's a fairly well known term: https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-intersex From the above link: ** What Does Intersex Mean? Intersex is an umbrella term for people who are born with one or more traits in their chromosomes, genitals, hormones, or internal reproductive organs that don’t fit the typical male or female patterns. Some of their traits might not match the sex they were assigned at birth or may combine traditionally understood male and female traits. While intersex traits are often noticed at birth, the differences aren't always obvious then. People might discover they have intersex traits at puberty or in adulthood, sometimes as a result of medical testing for infertility. In rare instances, such differences are found in autopsies, after people have died. It's important to note that intersex people may use varying terms to describe their differences. While many reject the language used by some medical organizations – "disorders of sex development" – some use the term "differences of sex development." The most widely used description is intersex. **

Now you're just getting into lying. What exactly do you think I'm lying about? And once again, I've seen no evidence that cis is a pejorative. If you have any evidence suggesting that it is, by all means present it.

But what if he defines it as "An exercise in self delusion practiced by whiny little brats who can't cope with reality as they've discovered it and are seeking to demand the government wipe their butts so that they feel better"? Word definitions have some similarities to the law. Frank Herbert wrote a great line on the law in one of his Dune books: "Law always chooses sides on the basis of enforcement power. Morality and legal niceties have little to do with it when the real question is: Who has the clout?" Thus it is with words. There's the clout to get a word into the slang of an area and even more clout if you can get it into Wikipedia and dictionaries. Now, that doesn't mean that morality and other niceties can't be part of it, but the most important thing is the clout. As I've said previously, there is currently a war of sorts going on between those who want to maintain the old definitions of words like gender and those who want to replace them with the new ones that I've mentioned. I think we've agreed that more people are using the new definitions. You've pointed out that new trends are not always good ones, and I agree with that. I think in this particular case, though, it's a good trend. What remains to be seen is this trend will have the clout to win the battle. I think it will, but ofcourse time is the ultimate arbiter on things of this nature.

I agree with you there. But it's not so malleable. But you need to make up your mind, because you're claiming it is. Your flip-flopping back and forth on this. No, I'm not, but I can see how you could get that impression. You absolutely are. Perhaps you don't realize it but you absolutely are doing that, that is the thing you are doing I think sometimes the problem is that you take a snippet of what I write and miss the larger context. I went back to my post #213, where I pointed out that the term gender is not -so- malleable. What I meant is that there are some pretty hard limits to how much a word can be shaped, especially ones which are in common usage such as gender and gender words such as male and female. Right after I pionted out that gender was not that malleable a word, I said the following: ** Recently, there's been a type of battle between what we can call the old definition, that gender is tied to biology, and the new one that it is a social construct, as Wikipedia puts it. For now, both of these definitions exist and thus, it can be hard to know what a person means when they say they are male or female, because it depends on how they're defining their gender. That's why using terms like cis or biological are important if one wants to establish one's biological gender. **

Do you think it is pejorative to call a transwoman, who is a man identifying as a woman, a man, or a male, even after they have asked you to refer to them as how they identify? I think we can agree that referring to anyone in a way that they don't like can be seen as insulting, but there are also levels of offense. Someone who is biologically male and identifies as male is a cismale. Now, some cismales may not like the term, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a very specific and accurate term. Now, let's do a little thought experiment. Let's say that a lab is doing some tests that need to be done on biological males. They are drawing from a pool of people wherein some of them may define being male as being a cisgender male and others may define being male as both a cisgender and a transgender male. In order to make it clear that they can only take cisgender males, they have to have a way to differentiate between the 2. Naturally, cisgender male would work, but biological male would too. Now, let's try a different though experiment. This time, they are looking for biological males who -identify- as males, again drawing from the same pool of people, some of whom define males as biological males and others who define males as both biological and transgender males. This time, it's harder- either they would have to ask for cisgender males or they have to ask something rather long, basically "biological males who identify as males". Ultimately, I think people are going to go with the much shorter "cismales", but at present, perhaps there'll be a bit of both.

LARPing. It's nothing to do with gender. Agreed, LARPing has nothing to do with gender. I was talking about gender fluidity.

No, the fundimental point is that you prefer to insult people in pursuit of your agenda and create hostile wedges to separate people instead of looking for ways to bring people together. Absolute balderdash. I'm guessing this is coming from your insistence that cis is an insult, despite having presented no solid evidence that this is the case.

What you said above made me smile. I recall a certain person saying that cisgender offended them. I can imagine reciting everything you just said to justify the term :-p. Except the part where it's true And that's where you fall flat on your face. It's an inaccurate made up term much like n@gger or chug or chink etc. I suppose there's some truth to those terms, N@gger is based on 'negro' which is an accurate term. But they're invented pejoratives. I don't think the N word is a very accurate term- as far as I know, no one is actually black. Same thing for white, although perhaps albinos are an exception. Instead, humans tend to come in colours varying from slightly pink to very dark brown. Transgender and cisgender, on the other hand, are at least close to 100% accurate terms. And you have yet to show any evidence that they are pejorative terms.

The only "cramming" that's taking place here is your tranny activism. No, I'm just pointing out the fact that there is a significant group of people who define male and female as people who identify as such, and that there are people like you who have a hard time accepting this.

We already had one. Hetero and transgender. That's all you need. Hetero is an informal word for heterosexual, according to the American Heritage Dictionary, 5th Edition. Heterosexual, in turn, means a heterosexual person, someone who is "sexually oriented to persons of the opposite sex", as well as "of or relating to different sexes", according to the same dictionary. Note that it says nothing about what gender a person is, or even what sex a person is. Transgender defines a person who identifies with a sex that is not their own. What's missing is a word for people who identify with a sex that -is- their own. Cisgender is the shortest term for this. But for those who insist on some other term, there's always the super long "biological male/female/intersex who identifies as male/female/intersex".

Again, I strongly disagree, not least of which is because some trans people have children of their own. What's needed is more dialogue to try to find a way that everyone's concerns are heard and ultimately, find an approach that integrates trans people, whether or not they have taking hormones or surgery. I suspect that most people would be better off without hormone therapies and surgeries, but for that, they have to be comfortable in the bodies they already have. And that, I strongly suspect, will only come once societies are more comfortable with the fact that a lot of people don't want to comform to certain gender stereotypes. Trans people have been given way too much latitude, and that fantasy needs to be dialed way, WAY back. Probably to 1950's levels. Your sentiment makes me smile as I consider a line from one of Frank Herbert's books: "Scratch a conservative and you find someone who prefers the past over any future." Source: https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/3634588-god-emperor-of-dune

It doesn't depend on the place It's unfortunate that you're not aware of the reality that it really does. Some examples that make this crystal clear: Wisconsin school district can’t restrict bathrooms for trans student, judge says | NBC Here's another example where a school's intransigence cost them millions: Transgender Student’s Lawsuit Over Locker Room Access Costs District Millions | Athletic Business

Anyone can speak against vague abstractions such as "the left", but it won't [get] us anywhere productive. To get productive results, we need to talk about specifics. And it doesn't get more specific than two choices: a biological male and biological female. You should practice what you preach. As I've said elsewhere, there's actually a third possibility even when it comes to biological, which is intersex: Sex and gender: What is the difference? | Medical News Today And once we get into gender as a social construct, we have yet more possibilties.

No, your idea of acceptance is whatever the left-wing tells you. A person is either a biological male, or biological female - there is no deviation from this. Absolute balderdash. I actually thought that Trump might be slightly less bad than Kamala prior to his getting elected, because at least he seems to have the good sense to want to get out of Ukraine as quickly as possible.

Source provided. Where?

People need to be accepting without bending to the trans agenda, which is possible. The problem is that trans activists have gotten overly aggressive. They want more than just acceptance; they want full compliance with their agenda. As far as I know, you haven't even defined what you think the trans agenda -is-. How about you start there?

Then you weren't agreeing with me. lol There's no such thing as "sex assigned at birth" in a sane and normal world. You're either a boy or a girl at birth and everyone sees it. Not true: ** “Sex” refers to the physical differences between people who are male, female, or intersex. A person typically has their sex assigned at birth based on physiological characteristics, including their genitalia and chromosome composition. This assigned sex is called a person’s “natal sex.” ** Source: Sex and gender: What is the difference? | Medical News Today Note the word "typically". It's quite important, as people aren't -always- assigned a sex at birth. The article explains how things aren't always typical: ** Society often sees maleness and femaleness as a biological binary. However, there are issues with this distinction. For instance, the chromosomal markers are not always clear-cut. Some male babies are born with two or three X chromosomes, just as some female babies are born with a Y chromosome. Also, some babies are born with atypical genitalia due to a difference in sex development. This type of difference was once called a “disorder of sex development,” but this term is problematic. In a 2015 surveyTrusted Source, most respondents perceived the term negatively. A further review found that many people do not use it at all, and instead use “intersex.” **

It absolutely does not. male /māl/ adjective of or denoting the sex that produces small, typically motile gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring. "male children" There you go. That's one of the definitions. The other relates to gender. Wikipedia explains: ** Usage In humans, the word male can be used in the context of gender, such as for gender role or gender identity of a man or boy.[7] For example, according to Merriam-Webster, "male" can refer to "having a gender identity that is the opposite of female".[21] According to the Cambridge Dictionary, "male" can mean "belonging or relating to men".[22] ** Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male

Again, it depends on how a given person defines the words man and woman. Only if you want to help someone fuel his fantasy. In the REAL world, we go by biological sex. The person is either a man or a woman. From what I've seen, the word sex itself, when used in a biological context, is generally sufficient. So, you can -usually- say that a person's sex is male and female. The key here, though, is usually. This is because of people who are intersex. Below is an article that gets into intersex people: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity/whats-intersex

We have that, they are called transgender. That certainly works when you want to identify people who are transgender. The problem occurs when you want to identify people who aren't. Cisgender works great to do this.

Wikipedia is trash. It's better to use this source: Cultural Marxism is a branch of Marxist ideology formulated by the Frankfurt School, which had its origins the early part of the twentieth century. Cultural Marxism comprises much of the foundation of political correctness and wokeism. It emerged as a response of European Marxist intellectuals disillusioned by the early political failures of conventional economic Marxist ideology.[1] Cultural Marxism was also opposed to Soviet Communism.[2] The central idea of Cultural Marxism is to soften up and prepare Western Civilization for economic Marxism after a gradual, relentless, sustained attack on every institution of Western culture,[3] including schools,[4] literature, art, film, the Judeo-Christian worldview, tradition, marriage and the family,[5] sexual mores, national sovereignty, etc.[6] The attacks are usually framed in Marxist terms as a class struggle between oppressors and oppressed; the members of the latter class allegedly include women, minorities, homosexuals, and adherents of non-Western ideologies such as Islam. Cultural Marxism has been described as "the cultural branch of globalism."[7] While Marx's Communist Manifesto focused on the alleged class struggle between bourgeois (owners of the means of production) and proletariat (workers), Marx did address culture, which he intimated would change after his economic vision was implemented. Patrick Buchanan argues that Cultural Marxism succeeded where Marx failed.[8] Marxism has permeated the American Left.[9] Among cultural Marxists, the book Dialectic of Enlightenment is considered to be a central text.[10][11] An effective way for cultural Marxists to influence the culture is to infiltrate schools and indoctrinate students, which the Democratic Socialists of America explicitly endorsed in 2018.[12] https://www.conservapedia.com/Cultural_Marxism Sources can't be refuted by simply saying that they are "trash". Nevertheless, I appreciate that your response didn't end there. I may not always agree wth conservative beliefs, but I appreciate the fact that you took the time to quote and link to a source that expresses them. Anyway, it's clear that there are wildly diverging takes on what cultural marxism means, as well as the people who use the term.

The term "Sex assignment" is politicized bullshit. It's best to stick with biological fact: If you're born with a penis, you're a boy. If you're born with a vagina, you're a girl. It's not, though. I suspect the reason it's used has to do with people who are intersex. From an article on the subject: ** Intersex is an umbrella term that describes bodies that fall outside the strict male/female binary. There are lots of ways someone can be intersex. What does intersex mean? Intersex is a general term used for a variety of situations in which a person is born with reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t fit the boxes of “female” or “male.” Sometimes doctors do surgeries on intersex babies and children to make their bodies fit binary ideas of “male” or “female”. Doctors always assign intersex babies a legal sex (male or female, in most states), but, just like with non-intersex people, that doesn’t mean that’s the gender identity they’ll grow up to have. This brings up questions about whether or not it’s OK to do medical procedures on children’s bodies when it’s not needed for their health. Being intersex is a naturally occurring variation in humans, and it isn’t a medical problem — therefore, medical interventions (like surgeries or hormone therapy) on children usually aren’t medically necessary. Being intersex is also more common than most people realize. It’s hard to know exactly how many people are intersex, but estimates suggest that about 1-2 in 100 people born in the U.S. are intersex. There are many different ways someone can be intersex. Some intersex people have genitals or internal sex organs that fall outside the male/female categories — such as a person with both ovarian and testicular tissues. Other intersex people have combinations of chromosomes that are different than XY ( usually associated with male) and XX (usually associated with female), like XXY. And some people are born with external genitals that fall into the typical male/female categories, but their internal organs or hormones don’t. If a person’s genitals look different from what doctors and nurses expect when they’re born, someone might be identified as intersex from birth. Other times, someone might not know they’re intersex until later in life, like when they go through puberty. Sometimes a person can live their whole life without ever discovering that they’re intersex. ** Full article: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity/whats-intersex