Pct2017

OK, I know that I should not bother responding, but what the heck. It is a beautiful sunny day here in my part of BC and nothing can go wrong. Polls, public opinion, twitter feeds, forums such as this one - just how exactly do you propose that any of this is going to affect the recently elected government's position on bargaining with the whiny teachers and their out to lunch union? Do you truly believe that the contract will somehow go to a referendum or plebiscite? Do you think that the government is going to call a snap election over this "issue"? I just do not get what is so compelling to you about perceived public support for the teachers. BTW, if I wanted to bother, I could match you opinion poll for opinion poll that show there is very little support for the BCTF, but again, why bother. It means nothing. What is very interesting is that the NDP is taking a very silent approach to all of this. Nary a word of support is coming out of their mouths. Even they know a loosing proposition when they see it. Now for the fun part. Kelowna is not that far from where I live, yet I had not heard anything about protests for the teachers. So, I took the time to Google "Kelowna teachers protest photo" and sure enough there was a photo of people on a bridge protesting. And here was the story: "When the final bell rings, teachers will gather on the overpass on Highway 97 at 4pm, holding black balloons and picket signs, raising public awareness on what they describe as "the dark cloud hanging over public education."" So, your "public" once again was a pile of whiny school teachers. And the date of the story? February 27, 2012. Jesus Socialist, are you so desperate to believe that teachers are viewed as anything other than whiny, greedy cretins that you are willing to dig up two year old stories and try to pass them off as current affairs? You really need to get a life there buddy.

The BCTF and governments of all political stripes have been doing battle since the inception of the TF. But, there have been two reports commissioned over the past decade to try to restructure the bargaining process. In 2004, Don Wright completed a very sweeping set of recommendations that provided for, amongst other points binding arbitration on a point by point basis. The government accepted the report in it's entirety while the BCTF rejected it. So then in 2007, a very renowned labour relations specialist by the name of Vince Ready completed a second report, again with the goal of adjusting the bargaining process. He made four much less sweeping recommendations than the Wright Report. Again, the government stated that they were prepared to accept all four recommendations as binding, but the BCTF rejected two outright and would not accept the other two as binding. The point of all of this is that change to the bargaining process is only possible if the teachers and their union finally decide to allow change. As for your comment that all administrators were crappy teachers, well that is just a really weird comment. I really cannot figure out where you are going with that.

Tim, you are right, but for more reasons than you state. Here is another example of the tremendous drain that the public service is to the BC provincial coffers. Although very few civil servants are aware of this, there was a world wide recession in 2008. The net effect on pension plans for public sector defined benefit plans was massive as anyone would well expect. But, what has not been well publicized is the fact that yet more of our tax dollars have been spent to prop up these plans. Given that this thread is about the BCTF, let us look at them as an example. Back in 2007, taxpayers were on the hook to contribute to the teachers golden pension to the tune of 12.18% of gross salary for each teacher. Sounds like a lot, doesn't it? Well, that rate now sits at 16.13%. Very quietly, the teachers have had their pensions bolstered by 4% at a time when all non-govt employees have had their retirement plans decimated. And btw, teachers will whine that they also fund their pension plan. Well, yes they do, but their rate of contribution is 14%, more than 2% less than the taxpayers contribution. It totally eludes me why public sector employees still have defined benefit pension plans when the rest of the world has switched to defined contribution plans.

There is so much energy being put into trying to determine which "side" is leading public opinion about the mess that the BCTF has brought upon our fine province. Really, people, stop and ask yourselves why does public opinion even enter into this strike/negotiations. The Liberals, despite the best efforts of the BCTF ($2 million in teachers dues spent on advertising for the NDP), the Liberals won the only opinion poll that matters one year ago. And now they do not face another election for another three years. And in the life of the electorate, three years is an absolute eternity. So, for those of you who do not live in BC, if you were here, you would see the government negotiators taking very much a different approach to these negotiations than two years ago. They are playing hardball. Want to start "job action" there teachers? Ok, that will be 5% off your salary. Want to ratchet up that job action there BCTF? Ok, you get to pay the bennies for your members next month ( estimated at $5 million/month). Oh, and by the way, your members are now short 10% on their paycheques. This is a totally different tone from years gone by and that is because the government does not have to worry about "public opinion". And that has to be driving the BCTF batshit crazy. And by the way, out here in BC, we put very little credence in public opinion polls. Last May, the NDP was slated to win a landslide victory according to the polls. And, well, history was written a bit differently than that.

No, you enable admin to know exactly what their costs per student are going to be. It would be a dream for them. I am curious just how your argument about working in remote places works in the current, very broken model? What are the incentives to work in the north vs an urban centre now? This suggestion goes a long ways to solve a bunch of issues here in BC. It would address the court case as it would put class size back into the collective agreement, it would allow young teachers to get work if the existing teachers stick to their ideals and reduce class sizes and it does not increase costs for the taxpayer. Look, I am a realist enough to know that the BCTF would not entertain an idea like this because they only want higher pay and reduced workloads for the teachers. But I really do think that there is an alternative model out there to replace the sadly broken one in place today. BTW, you do know that Toronto and Flin Flon are in different provinces, do you not? And hopefully you know that education is a provincial matter, not federal.

And while I am fixing the entire system, I also think that School Boards are an unnecessary expense, albeit a small one. We do not elect Police Boards or Fireman Boards, so why do we elect and pay for School Boards. School District superintendents should report directly to the Ministry of Education. And, finally, individual School District contracts for teachers should be rolled into one single contract for the entire province. An example of where this would help is the recent news story created when 600 teachers were "laid off" in Coquitlam due to a budget shortfall. Well, when you look at the budget for that SD, their loading costs for employee benefits is above 30% while most of the rest of the SD's in BC seem to run between 22% to 25%. If bennies were reduced in Coquitlam by 5%, their budget would have balanced. Funny how the BCTF failed to mention this little fact when they were setting their hair on fire about this last week.

I believe you are missing the point. Administrators would not decide class size. Individual teachers would choose their class size and consequently their pay grade. Truly challenged kids would still count, but they would be supported by non-BCTF EA's. As for small, remote schools, there could be incentives built into the system just like there are for doctors to work in non-urban centres. Much like the public has some say in who their GP is, parents would also be encouraged to request their kids not be taught by known lousy teachers thus providing a mechanism to weed out theses types of teachers. I would love to see some evidence that there is a "desperate need" for teachers in remote locations in BC. That would be surprising, and quite frankly a damning indictment of recent BEd grads.

So here is an idea to address both class size and teacher salary in one fell swoop. Link teacher salaries to number of students taught. Have a sliding scale just like the current salary grid, but set the salary to number of students taught by the individual teacher. In other words, give the teachers $2400 average (this would range from $2200 to $2600 depending on years experience etc) per student and then let each individual teacher commit each August to how many students she desires to teach. Want lots of money? Sign up for 35 students. Want small class size? Sign up for 15 students. Leave the choice up to the individual teacher. Then administration can hire/fire teachers as necessary to match the number of students registered. before the school year starts. This of course does not address class composition, but hiring a pile more EA's from outside the BCTF would go a long way to mollify individual teacher's concerns. Of course, outcomes would have to be part of the solution also. Kid drops out? No $2400. Parents complain and want to move teachers part way through the year? No $2400. This solution would be very similar to how the medical system works in that doctors get paid by patient visits, not an annual salary, or at least I believe that is how they are remunerated.

So, pretty minor point here, but when you choose to quote what someone else said, you are really meant to respond to that particular thought. Seems like a pretty simple idea, but.....

WCR, You and I obviously have very differing views on the BCTF and the teachers who enable that union. But putting our differences aside for a minute, I have to take this opportunity to thank you profusely for achieving the near impossible. You have been able to get our young "teacher" friend Socialist to go two posts without using the phrase neo-liberal. Thank you. PCT2017

Something that seems to be getting passed over in the discussion about our whiney BC teachers is the fact that the BCTF has to be somewhat mindful of the support it can garner from it's own membership if it moves into the very dangerous waters of a full strike, particularly in June. Going back to March, the union took a strike vote. It received 89% support, so that would indicate overwhelming support, right. Well, not really. What that strike ballot would have said is something along the lines of do you give your union the mandate to call limited job action if necessary as deemed by the union executive. So, a no vote would basically neuter the union in negotiations with the employer. Yet, 3,250 teachers did just that. And another 11,700 chose not to vote at all. Now, those two groups combined were still in the minority compared to those who voted yes. But it is still a significant amount of members who either outright tried to kneecap their own union or chose to step aside for whatever reason. The next vote that they have to take is much more sensitive. It will be along the lines of do you give your union the mandate to call a full strike. That is a much more difficult question to answer yes to. On the other side, the government is exactly one year into a four year majority mandate. They have the approval of the population to manage the provincial affairs in a fiscally responsible manner. They do not have to pussyfoot around nearly as much as the BCTF is going to have to. I think that the union has blundered terribly by escalating to rotating strikes. They really are putting a lot of blind faith in the membership's commitment to follow them down this most dangerous of paths, namely a full strike.

Well, I am going to give you a C- for you very limited effort. Your last line about the BCTF "finally" educating the public cost you a full grade. Now, let me educate you. Bill 22 or the Education Improvement Act did indeed impose class size and composition limits and removed these elements from the negotiations with the BCTF which were ongoing at the time. That is what Madame Griffin ruled was unconstitutional. However, section 27.7 put an expiry date on these provisions. It stated that after June 30, 2013, the BCTF could negotiate on class size and composition in it's collective agreement. So, this massive victory that the BCTF loves to tout was actually a verdict that addressed the time period between the enactment of the Bill and June 30, 2013 or roughly 15 months. So, in other words, her ruling has no bearing whatsoever on the current round of negotiations. Class size and composition was always going to be included in this round of negotiations. To be very honest, I have no idea of why the government decided to appeal the ruling. It was really a lame duck ruling and the two million fine was the best spent two million in the history of the province. We saved upwards of half a billion per year for over a decade for the price of a two million fine.

Ok, using your own words, no cartoons or citing loopy left wing websites, please explain to the class just what it was that Madame Justice Griffin stated in the court case. Remember, no cheating, just give us your understanding of the verdict and how it affects the current round of negotiations. You must be specific. No generalities. If you fail at this, you will be banished from using the term neo-liberal for one year. Time starts now.

Here is an interesting fact. In the past six or so months, 14 different collective agreements have been signed between the government of BC and a variety of public sector unions. 115,000 employees have agreed to around 5.5% over five years. To the best of my knowledge, not a single one of them threatened to stamp their feet and throw themselves on the ground in order to get to a settlement. They all emerged with their dignity intact. I could not tell you one name of the various union leaders involved due to the fact that they negotiated out of the press. And then you have the BCTF. Another interesting fact is that Jim Sinclair, the head of the BC Fed has been something of a regular visitor to the premier's office as they work together to get more trades seats going in the province. Then, there was the truckers strike at the Port of Vancouver. Who was it that brokered the deal in that dispute? None other than Christy Clark. And that was not even her turf as it was a fight with the Feds. Seems like all labour unions and groups are getting along famously with the BC Liberals. And then you have the BCTF.

You really are about the dullest knife in any drawer, are you not. As someone else stated about you previously, do you ever read the websites that you post? You state that this letter to the editor is a fine example of the "public" wanting the government to change it's philosophy regarding public education. Well there Plink, the letter was written by a teacher. Gee, that is such a fine example of the unbiased "public" is it not.

Bleeding Heart, it has happened. Young Socialist has just posted the revelation that when teachers volunteer, they do not get paid. For the love of humanity, I had no idea that they had to endure such hardships. I know that when I volunteer in the community where I live, I expect to be paid handsomely. That is, after all, why we volunteer is it not? If only I had known that the poor, suffering teachers were not being paid for volunteering, I would have been in their corner years ago. Bless their hearts, the teachers have suffered and endured so selflessly, how could I have not seen how wrong I was about them up until now. I am going to lead a rally that hopefully will be the start of the end of teachers not being paid when they volunteer.

Which continent is considered to have the largest mouth?

Huh? I have read your post a few times, and for the life of me I don't get what your point is. I mean, if Socialist is really a teacher (and there are openings in the pool if you want to join - teenager, troll and a figment of another posters imagination are taken), then he/she represents everything that is bad about teachers and their unions. If he/she is just pretending, then it does dilute the opinions that he/she states to those of someone who merely surfs the web to obtain info and then parrots that info. Believe it or not, it is very likely a small minority of teachers that screw up the image of the entire body, but that small minority are the ones who put their names up for nomination in the teachers unions like the BCTF, and they then become the face for all teachers. Maybe this is wrong, but until the rest of the teachers wake up and realize that they are being sullied by the likes of Socialist, then they have to live with the reputation presented on their behalf by the unions. And that is one of greed, entitlement and laze. Fair? Probably not, but it is their choice to not make the changes necessary to regain some form of dignity in their vocation. Maybe they could even be regarded as a profession again one day, but in BC, today is not the day.

I must admit that the idea that Socialist is not exactly who he or she presents themselves to be has been a distinct possibility for me also. But, I really hope that he/she is actually a teacher and not the teenager that I suspect because Socialist is always reliable to prove to people like myself just why it is that so many of us dislike teachers, particularly those who carry union memberships on their sleeves. I don't follow any of the other topics on this site as they mainly pertain to other provinces, but does Socialist present a loopy personality on other threads also?

March 20 - Socialist stated: Those of you educated in the past archaic system have a hard time understanding this. You need to trust that high level education experts with extensive research have determined the 4 Cs to be crucial inn today's education. May 13 - Socialist stated: Art teaches creativity, one of the 3 Cs of 21st Century Skills. Your ignorant comment revels how little you know. Art is beginning to get the credit it deserves and more schools, are thankfully, pushing for more art. Jeez, we are losing C's as fast as the BCTF is loosing Plink a Plinks's perceived public support. But, I guess that this is to be expected. When you workday is limited to 5.5 hours, it is hard to fit all of the C's in, so why not simply drop one.

March 8 - According to Socialist: The public is close to 90% supportive of the teachers in BC. But the teacher bashers will continue to bash ignorantly. March 27 - According to Socialist: The courts ruled in favor of the BCTF and from what I'm reading I'd say about 85%of the public is with the BCTF and against the neo-liberals. May 14 - According to Socialist: Roughly 75% of BC residents support the BCTF and teachers. Man, those teachers had better hurry up and settle while they still have Socialist's support. Even he is waffling.

Generally speaking, I find the practice of citing letters and blogs and articles written by others as lazy and teacher-like. But this is one case where I will make an exception. The gentleman who penned this letter is a retired teacher on Vancouver Island. His analysis of his former workmates and their union is spot on. http://www.nanaimodailynews.com/paying-teachers-more-will-not-help-students-1.1005107

Yes, in a province with a population of 4.4 million, there have been dozens and dozens of teachers protesting something, but they are not sure what. But, they really, really want a raise and they have promised to be better teachers if they get one. It is a movement there people.

Man, you just do not have the gift of knowing when to zip it, do you. OK, regarding the "news" that teachers are getting laid off for the summer, well that is earth shattering. You know, you profess to be a teacher, yet you do not seem to know squat about the system. Odd. Anyway, it is very standard to layoff a pile of teachers and support staff in June and then rehire them in August. Weird that you were not aware of that. As far as The Tyee, well when you start reading stuff from the Fraser Institute, then I will start reading The Tyee. And as far as the teacher's blog, well there is some balance to what she writes, but her writing actually supports my contention that a huge problem for teachers is that they work in isolation and have limited to no interaction with adults in the real world. Her contention that people despise teachers and the BCTF is rooted in previous bad experiences with teachers during our time in school is so far out to lunch that it renders all else that she writes as moot. And where she looses all credibility is when she insinuates in her concluding paragraph that teachers are hard pressed to put food on their table because of their low wages.

Anyways, pro-teacher rallies are being held throughout BC. http://www.mrtimes.com/news/dozens-rally-for-education-at-mla-s-office-in-maple-ridge-1.1055287#sthash.UE0CzFiP.uxfs I have to ask - do you post these websites and just hope that everybody is as lazy as a teacher and will not look at them? Did you even to read this one? Wow -in a city of 76,000, there were dozens of people protesting in favour of teachers. Yes, dozens! And the organizers were thrilled to get more than the 14 they got last week. Yes, you read that right. 14. Not 140 or 1400 or 14,000. 14. And now they have upwards of 30 turning out. I tell you, it is a huge movement! C'mon there Plink, you can do better than this. Even by your extremely low standards, this was laughable.