Grits, Tories battle for Jewish support in next election

[punked]

Any form of interrogation or intimidation.

Physical?I seem to remember Iggy arguing that physical abuse is fine as long as we don't call it torture. I surly draw the line at physical abuse.

Edited July 19, 2009 by punked

[jdobbin]

Physical?

Any type of interrogation. That is what a former NDP leader said.

http://cautbulletin.ca/en_article.asp?Sect...;ArticleID=1696

"Canadians do not think that interrogation and intimidation is the job of the police," McDonough responded.

The NDP don't believe the police should interrogate anyone. They believe it is intimidation.

[jdobbin]

Physical?I seem to remember Iggy arguing that physical abuse is fine as long as we don't call it torture. I surly draw the line at physical abuse.

You will have to show me that quote. I haven't seen it.

The NDP are against even questioning people.

Edited July 19, 2009 by jdobbin

[benny]

Don't recall Ignatieff torturing anyone.

Do you recall Ignatieff writing about human rights as idolatry!?

[punked]

You will have to show me that quote. I haven't sen it.

The NDP are against even questioning people.

You are going to have show the NDP being against questioning people.

As for Iggy "I agree with her that necessity may require the commission of bad acts, which necessity, nevertheless, cannot absolve of their morally problematic character" "hooding, holding subjects in painful positions, exposing them to cold or heat or ear-splitting noise—these techniques also seem unacceptable, though at a lower threshold of awfulness, than torture"

[jdobbin]

Do you recall Ignatieff writing about human rights as idolatry!?

Do you recall Ignatieff writing about not going down the slippery slope?

[jdobbin]

You are going to have show the NDP being against questioning people.

That is exactly what the RCMP did and the NDP were against it.

As for Iggy "I agree with her that necessity may require the commission of bad acts, which necessity, nevertheless, cannot absolve of their morally problematic character" "hooding, holding subjects in painful positions, exposing them to cold or heat or ear-splitting noise—these techniques also seem unacceptable, though at a lower threshold of awfulness, than torture"

He said it was unacceptable.

[punked]

Do you recall Ignatieff writing about not going down the slippery slope?

Unless it "might" result in something. I read lesser of evils he makes it pretty clear. If someone might say something he is all for anything, if the means might out weight the cost.

[jdobbin]

Unless it "might" result in something. I read lesser of evils he makes it pretty clear. If someone might say something he is all for anything, if the means might out weight the cost.

He said it was unacceptable.

The NDP, of course, are against any interrogation including questions.

[benny]

You are going to have show the NDP being against questioning people.

As for Iggy "I agree with her that necessity may require the commission of bad acts, which necessity, nevertheless, cannot absolve of their morally problematic character" "hooding, holding subjects in painful positions, exposing them to cold or heat or ear-splitting noise—these techniques also seem unacceptable, though at a lower threshold of awfulness, than torture"

In the end Ignatieff should know that lesser evil is still evil.

[punked]

That is exactly what the RCMP did and the NDP were against it.

Thanks for the citations and quotes they were very helpful.

He said it was unacceptable.

I agree he flip flops a lot saying "well this could be torture and if it is torture I am against it," but in the next line saying "although if we don't call it torture we should totally do it if might give us something" but the end of lesser of evils and even this small paper he makes it clear he is ok with physical abuse.

[punked]

In the end Ignatieff should know that lesser evil is still evil.

That is what I want in my leader.

[jdobbin]

In the end Ignatieff should know that lesser evil is still evil.

Which is what he said.

[jdobbin]

Thanks for the citations and quotes they were very helpful.

They are pretty clear. The job of the police is not to interrogate.

I agree he flip flops a lot saying "well this could be torture and if it is torture I am against it," but in the next line saying "although if we don't call it torture we should totally do it if might give us something" but the end of lesser of evils and even this small paper he makes it clear he is ok with physical abuse.

It doesn't. He said it is unacceptable.

Unfortunately for the NDP, they don't believe the police should even question people.

[punked]

Which is what he said.

No it isn't have you read the lesser evil? Here is quote form the Princeton press about it.

"Ignatieff argues that we must not shrink from the use of violence--that far from undermining liberal democracy, force can be necessary for its survival. But its use must be measured, not a program of torture and revenge. And we must not fool ourselves that whatever we do in the name of freedom and democracy is good. We may need to kill to fight the greater evil of terrorism, but we must never pretend that doing so is anything better than a lesser evil."

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7578.html

[jdobbin]

No it isn't have you read the lesser evil? Here is quote form the Princeton press about it.

"Ignatieff argues that we must not shrink from the use of violence--that far from undermining liberal democracy, force can be necessary for its survival. But its use must be measured, not a program of torture and revenge. And we must not fool ourselves that whatever we do in the name of freedom and democracy is good. We may need to kill to fight the greater evil of terrorism, but we must never pretend that doing so is anything better than a lesser evil."

That is the review. That is not what he said.

[punked]

They are pretty clear. The job of the police is not to interrogate.

Thanks for the citation on your claim the NDP is against that like mine on how the Liberal leader is for torture.

It doesn't. He said it is unacceptable.

Unfortunately for the NDP, they don't believe the police should even question people.

It is like we are reading a different thread honestly? I mean it is just sad.

[punked]

That is the review. That is not what he said.

I read the book it is what he says in it. It why I have been so anti Iggy while I was fine with Dion.

Edited July 19, 2009 by punked

[jdobbin]

I read the book it is what he says in it.

I read the book too. Show me the quote where he said that.

[benny]

"...if torture and coercion are both as useless as critics pretend, why are they used so much? While some abuse and outright torture can be attributed to individual sadism, poor supervision and so on, it must be the case that other acts of torture occur because interrogators believe, in good faith, that torture is the only way to extract information in a timely fashion. It must also be the case that if experienced interrogators come to this conclusion, they do so on the basis of experience. The argument that torture and coercion do not work is contradicted by the dire frequency with which both practices occur."

Michael Ignatieff, "If torture works…", Prospect, April 2006

[punked]

I read the book too. Show me the quote where he said that.

It is pretty much the first two chapters if I remember correctly. In the end I think I will take my memory and the Princeton Press over you Dobbin.

[jdobbin]

It is pretty much the first two chapters if I remember correctly. In the end I think I will take my memory and the Princeton Press over you Dobbin.

Actually, no. Show me the quote. I can't trust the memory of an anonymous NDP poster. You made the claim. Show me where he said it.

Edited July 19, 2009 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

"...if torture and coercion are both as useless as critics pretend, why are they used so much? While some abuse and outright torture can be attributed to individual sadism, poor supervision and so on, it must be the case that other acts of torture occur because interrogators believe, in good faith, that torture is the only way to extract information in a timely fashion. It must also be the case that if experienced interrogators come to this conclusion, they do so on the basis of experience. The argument that torture and coercion do not work is contradicted by the dire frequency with which both practices occur."

Which he said is unacceptable.

[benny]

Actually, no. Show me the quote. I can't trust the memory of an anonymous NDP poster. You made the claim. Show me where he said it.

Bottom line: it is Ignatieff who makes the claim that he will be a good PM.

Edited July 19, 2009 by benny

[punked]

Actually, no. Show me the quote. I can't trust the memory of an anonymous NDP poster. You made the claim. Show me where he said it.

Well because it was Library book I can grab it and cite quotes. I would love too because unlink you I like to back my claims ("the NDP hate police solving crimes") but I can not with the book itself.

However in the end that is the jist of it. He believes in order to fight "the greater evils" we need to use "the lesser evils". Ignoring the fact this very approach in the cold war created Osama, and Sadam. The two men Iggy is ready to lose his morals for to fight. Irony is fun.

In the end we can assume becuase Iggy did not correct the Princeton press they got what he meant right.

Edited July 19, 2009 by punked