Mixed Member Proportional representation

jennie · October 9, 2007

Am I the only one who is scratching their head about how this referendum came out of left field and ended up on the ballot?
I must have missed something, but this sure seemed to come out of nowhere.

The Citizen's Assembly was working for at least a year, and there were news releases. However, I guess no one understood what it was really about.

Regardless of the other issues raised here, the real purpose of MMP is to ensure that the number of seats for each party reflects the popular vote, as well as the constituencies won the old way. This prevents a minority from gaining absolute power to pass anything they like in the legislature, like the Mike Harris government.

I followed it because I am in favour of proportional representation and opposed to majority governments that are chosen by only a minority of the people. The current FPTP system is vulnerable to corruption, the way we see it happening: Every candidate tries to nail down just the number of votes needed to win, and caters to those constituents. Thus the majority are left out of the process entirely, their votes are worthless. The percentage of people voting is steadily decreasing because people see the system as one they cannot influence. I think that MMP will be a breath of fresh air and will keep our politicians on their toes.

Edited October 9, 2007 by jennie

kengs333 · October 9, 2007

Because it is not the voice of the country.
The GTA has about 80% the number of people in both BC and Alberta *combined*.

It is not proper, for a small, but highly populated concentration of people in Ontario to decide what goes for the rest of the country. If this was the case, Alberta's oil sands would be toast due to global warming concerns.

This is why there is an electoral college in the US.. Left wing wacko's in the largest city centers could not determine the gov't for the rest of the people. California and NewYork state cannot get together and control 50% of the senate like here in Canada.

Regardless of how a province votes, they should only have 1/13th represention or 2 representatives federally. We've discussed this before and found that the most democratic, fairest thing to do is sure enough move to a US style of system. -> Bring power back to provinces, and have representatives from each province represent us federally. It's only logical.

There are 1,000,000 mulsims in Canada. The Bloc got 1,553,201 last election.

Do you want Muslims unifying to vote down Islamic lines and get into our Parliment?

Is that what you want?

Then we say NO TO MMP

Isn't it closer to 500,000 muslims?

kengs333 · October 9, 2007

List Members will be no more hand-picked than are the current FPTP candidates.
http://voteformmp.ca/how_mmp_works#stronger_representation

So if you don't have a problem with the FPTP selection process, why would you with MMP?

They're just fear-mongering, mouthing what they've read in their favorite mainstream newspapers which all seem to be opposed to MMP. The elites don't want a change in the system because they dominate the game as it is; MMP will open up politics to the people and no longer confine it to the political elites of a few major parties.

kengs333 · October 10, 2007

Am I the only one who is scratching their head about how this referendum came out of left field and ended up on the ballot?
I must have missed something, but this sure seemed to come out of nowhere.

No, the process has been going on for quite some time, and you weren't paying attention. The sad thing is the NO side is probably going to win because the majority of people don't pay any attention to provincial politics and simply don't know what's going on. Being politically aware is an obligation of each citizen in a democracy. You're not justified in making this situation seem as though it was suddenly foisted upon the people, because that's just not the case. You have only yourself to blame for your lack of knowledge about the referendum.

mikedavid00 · October 10, 2007

Am I the only one who is scratching their head about how this referendum came out of left field and ended up on the ballot?
I must have missed something, but this sure seemed to come out of nowhere.

The Liberals like it because it will saturate the Green/NDP vote.

The Green and other fringe parties like it the most (include Islamic and Sikh parties in the making) so they can get Sikhs.

The Liberals REALLY like it becuase people will vote Liberal, and then vote for a fringe party and this esnures Liberal victory after victory, albiet less overall seats.

The Cons hate it because it's just more seats lost to them and they will never get a majority.

NOW HOW DO WE AS CANADIANS FEEL?

Well that's simple. Do you want a Parliment with 2 Islmist parties, 1 Sikh Party, and 1 Party of Punjab swaying votes and generally ruining our country?

Or do you want representation, of ELECTED members, that YOU elected, for your own riding?

mikedavid00 · October 10, 2007

Isn't it closer to 500,000 muslims?

No one knows the number right now, but in 10 years it's estimated to be 1,421,400.

So I mathed it out at about a million now. (many muslims say there are really a million muslims in Canada albiet they love to inflate their numbers. They have several websites that are dedicated to tracking how many there are of them througout the world becuase the end goal is to dominate. And they will try to dominate our politics. I feel we have 10 years and counting before we're in too deep.)

We need to keep votes confined to regions and if things are unfair, adjust the riding districts.

But letting in free vote systems simply are not healthy for any system although it can work in HOMOGENOUS countries (most any country in the world but Canada which is a segregation oriented country (Quebec, Natives, and of course.. visible minorities)

mikedavid00 · October 10, 2007

No, the process has been going on for quite some time, and you weren't paying attention. The sad thing is the NO side is probably going to win because the majority of people don't pay any attention to provincial politics and simply don't know what's going on. Being politically aware is an obligation of each citizen in a democracy. You're not justified in making this situation seem as though it was suddenly foisted upon the people, because that's just not the case. You have only yourself to blame for your lack of knowledge about the referendum.

No I disagree.

Our gov't has done nothing to make people aware of what this is.

The yes no campaign has gotten very little funding although I do see a lot of YES signs everywhere.

It's so unfortunate that you feel an abviously exploitive blow to our political system is healthy and good for us.

What part of Ontario do you live in? Just curious.

A lot of people just don't realize the population density of the GTA and surrounding area.

guyser · October 10, 2007

Isn't it closer to 500,000 muslims?

Yes, about 579,000.

But mikey likes to inflate, it makes him , rather he thinks it makes his case stronger but in fact it shoots them down.

61% of all Muslims live in Ont , 5% of TO is Muslims, supposedly making this the largest Muslim group in any city in NorthAmerica. Who knew, they do their jobs and go home to the kids, kind of like the rest of us.

Ahh, but that doesnt help those in the boonies who dont sleep nights.

mikedavid00 · October 10, 2007

Yes, about 579,000.
But mikey likes to inflate, it makes him , rather he thinks it makes his case stronger but in fact it shoots them down.

61% of all Muslims live in Ont , 5% of TO is Muslims, supposedly making this the largest Muslim group in any city in NorthAmerica. Who knew, they do their jobs and go home to the kids, kind of like the rest of us.

Ahh, but that doesnt help those in the boonies who dont sleep nights.

OK SO YOU GOING TO MAKE ME DIG FOR CITES AGAIN

Uk study below (note that it is HARDER to get into the UK than here in Canada)

Immigrants `not working` figures by country of origin

institute for public policy research

Somalia 81% (muslims)

Turkey 59% (muslims - EU membership endorsed by Labour)

Bangladesh 56% (muslims)

Pakistan 55% (muslims)

Iran 48% (muslims)

Cyprus 32% (EU)

Jamaica 31%

China 31%

Portugal 30% (EU)

India 29%

Poland 15% (EU)

Austrailia 11%

But these figures dwarf into insignificance when we look at

particular areas and a youth dynamic. 70% of young Bangladeshi's

in Tower Hamlets for example are unemployed. This local borough

simultaneously incorporates some of the wealthiest people in the

UK who live in Canary Wharf and the poorest. There are others

around the UK such as Birmingham, Brent, Swansea and Cardiff which

have Black levels of unemployment that surpass 50%.

Pay attention to 5:30 min of the video and what the girl says in the car.

What she said is the most fundemental crux of my anti immigration argument. It's the cornerstone of why I am so apposed to this.

Edited October 10, 2007 by mikedavid00

daniel · October 10, 2007

...
Or do you want representation, of ELECTED members, that YOU elected, for your own riding?

Me? Is that on the condition of my being white or lynchable?

jbg · October 10, 2007

Yep, just like Israel and Italy are superb models for PR

My point was that Israel works well despite PR, not because of it.

M.Dancer · October 10, 2007

My point was that Israel works well despite PR, not because of it.

Then you are wrong.

kengs333 · October 10, 2007

No I disagree.
Our gov't has done nothing to make people aware of what this is.

The yes no campaign has gotten very little funding although I do see a lot of YES signs everywhere.

It's so unfortunate that you feel an abviously exploitive blow to our political system is healthy and good for us.

What part of Ontario do you live in? Just curious.

A lot of people just don't realize the population density of the GTA and surrounding area.

I seem to recall this being in the news over the last year or so, and anyone who follows Ontario politics should have known that the process was going on. As for making people aware of it, I've seen ads everywhere. When I e-mail, when I received my voters registration card, in the newspaper, etc. It takes all of five minutes to read the literature, because the change is fairly basic and shouldn't be all that difficult to grasp for people who are literate. How much easier does it have to be before it's understood by the majority of Ontarians.

Or maybe we should just forgo all of this and adopt the FD (facist dictatorship) or AM (absolute monarchy) mode of government. That would save the unwashed masses from having to concern themselves with the intricacies of electoral reform all together.

jbg · October 10, 2007

So if, for example, 50,000 people in a riding can elect an MP, why should it be that 50,000 people nation wide can't?

The likelihood of a candidate being "single issue" is far higher with a need for 50,000 votes nationwide. Let's say I start the "Apiary Party" for beekeepers, they'll wind up with a seat> they won't have pre-committed positions on any "non-bee" issues. Thus, they'll join any coalition that promises some patronage, such as a Cabinet position or other influence, or staffing advantages. Otherwise, they'll always want an election.

Rep-by-prop has a built-in bias for single issue candidates, for coalitions, for minority governments and for frequent elections.

jbg · October 10, 2007

Then you are wrong.

I mean Israel as a country works well. It's government is generally a disaster.

M.Dancer · October 10, 2007

I mean Israel as a country works well. It's government is generally a disaster.

yes ....canada could also work too but with PR \our gov would envy the Italians.........

jennie · October 10, 2007

OK SO YOU GOING TO MAKE ME DIG FOR CITES AGAIN
Uk study below (note that it is HARDER to get into the UK than here in Canada)

Immigrants `not working` figures by country of origin

institute for public policy research

Somalia 81% (muslims)

Turkey 59% (muslims - EU membership endorsed by Labour)

Bangladesh 56% (muslims)

Pakistan 55% (muslims)

Iran 48% (muslims)

Cyprus 32% (EU)

Jamaica 31%

China 31%

Portugal 30% (EU)

India 29%

Poland 15% (EU)

Austrailia 11%

But these figures dwarf into insignificance when we look at

particular areas and a youth dynamic. 70% of young Bangladeshi's

in Tower Hamlets for example are unemployed. This local borough

simultaneously incorporates some of the wealthiest people in the

UK who live in Canary Wharf and the poorest. There are others

around the UK such as Birmingham, Brent, Swansea and Cardiff which

have Black levels of unemployment that surpass 50%.

Pay attention to 5:30 min of the video and what the girl says in the car.

What she said is the most fundemental crux of my anti immigration argument. It's the cornerstone of why I am so apposed to this.

Some data from Canada:

Nevertheless, the most dramatic differences between the two groups arise when examining the occupations in which they were employed. Fully 90% of the Canadian born who studied medicine are working as physicians. In contrast only 55% of the internationally educated work as doctors; furthermore, 33% are employed in occupations that are completely unrelated to either medicine or health care in general (Chart 1).

Birthplace has most significant effect on chances of working as a doctor in Canada

As this brief profile clearly shows, internationally educated physicians constitute a highly heterogeneous group of individuals with widely varying characteristics. These characteristics can have a significant effect on the likelihood that a person will or will not find herself employed in her chosen profession.

Age is generally associated with higher status occupations because older workers usually have more labour market experience and this may increase the likelihood of working in one's chosen profession; on the other hand, age discrimination against older workers also may produce negative effects. Place of residence captures the effects of regional and local labour markets; large cities (CMAs) have more extensive knowledge based economies than smaller towns, and probably better employment opportunities. Language spoken at home is a proxy for fluency in Canada's official languages, since the ability to effectively use English or French not only enlarges employment opportunities but also is a requirement for medical re-certification in Canada.

Among those who immigrated as adults, one would expect that period of arrival and place of birth would be most important in determining whether or not they succeed in finding work as physicians. The reasons for this are easy to understand: Internationally educated doctors born in countries where English or French are spoken or taught intensively (for example, the US, the UK, North and West European countries) should have greater familiarity with Canada's official languages. Similarly, doctors recently arrived in Canada may not yet be eligible to work as physicians because it takes time to complete exams and undertake any new training required for re-accreditation. Finally, the 1990s presented a less favorable labour market to all immigrants than earlier decades, and this may have affected the match between credentials and occupation.

Indeed, a multivariate regression shows that these personal characteristics are significantly associated with the likelihood that a foreign trained person who studied medicine would actually practice medicine (see "What you should know about this study" for a more complete description of the technique). When all other variables in the model are controlled for, it is clear that those born in some regions have a better chance of finding employment as a physician.

A physician born in Canada, and assumed to have trained in a Canadian institution, would have a 92% predicted probability of working as a doctor. Taking all other variables into account, their internationally educated counterparts born in Africa or South Asia would also have very good chances, estimated at 85% and 87% respectively. In contrast, a foreign trained physician born in other regions of Asia or in Eastern Europe had the lowest hypothetical chances (less than 66 out of 100) of being employed in their chosen profession (Table 1).

Interesting analysis. Employability depends on fluency in English or French. Nothing earth shattering there. However, it is not clear how the situation became that way since language is part of the points system for immigration. Recency of immigration and language are the issues, and apparently those who employ doctors do not provide language training. They would rather cry about a shortage.

Edited October 10, 2007 by jennie

jennie · October 10, 2007

Back to topic ...

MMP: the real issue is representation of the popular vote ... our choices of parties ... in the legislature.

Under the current system, we can have a government with absolute power to pass anything they want, even though they were only elected by a minority (less than 50%) of the people.

MMP will mean that the percentage of seats for each party in the house will reflect the democratic vote of the people across the province, as well as the constituency seats.

My thoughts:

Fewer constituencies means more need for specialization, perhaps, so list member might, for example, have 'portfolios' across the province, to provide better and faster legislative service on specific issues, like environment and municipal planning and Indigenous Peoples' rights ... where the needs collide in Ontario right now.

Thus, in the current provincial election (according to the polls) under the current FPTP system, with 44% of the popular vote, Dalton McGuinty will have 63 seats, a majority in the house (out of the current 107? 106?) and a virtual dictatorship for the next four years, as passing laws through the legislature becomes just a rubber stamp. imo

It isn't a huge impact, though, if my calculations are right. I am assuming 107 current seats, 129 MMP, and the current poll results:

FPTP Current system First past the post 107 seats 63/107 59%of the current 107 seats

MMP Mixed member proportional

Constituency (Riding) seats 90 59% of 90 53 of 90 constituency seats

Party list seats 39 44% of 39 17 of 39 list seats

Seats in the legislature 129 70/129 54% of the MMP 129 seats

mikedavid00 · October 10, 2007

Interesting analysis. Employability depends on fluency in English or French. Nothing earth shattering there. However, it is not clear how the situation became that way since language is part of the points system for immigration

They already have the questions and answers to these tests.

This is what an 'immigration councelor' is for. That is why they exist.

You are young, but learning the cold truths of our world.

jennie · October 10, 2007

They already have the questions and answers to these tests.
This is what an 'immigration councelor' is for. That is why they exist.

You are young, but learning the cold truths of our world.

The points system is not a "test".

It asks, for example, whether you speak English or French, what education you have, etc. and assigns points accordingly.

Please keep your personal comments to yourself.

and ... everybody voting today?

M.Dancer · October 10, 2007

Thus, in the current provincial election (according to the polls) under the current FPTP system, with 44% of the popular vote, Dalton McGuinty will have 63 seats, a majority in the house (out of the current 107? 106?) and a virtual dictatorship for the next four years, as passing laws through the legislature becomes just a rubber stamp. imo

Sometimes it's posts like these that make me muse whether a point system should be in place that a voter must pass before they are allowed to cast their ballot. At least Civics 101 would help......

kengs333 · October 10, 2007

Sometimes it's posts like these that make me muse whether a point system should be in place that a voter must pass before they are allowed to cast their ballot. At least Civics 101 would help......

For once I will admit that she has a point, and I might add that in any proposed "point system" as you suggest, basic math should also be included.

mikedavid00 · October 10, 2007

The points system is not a "test".
It asks, for example, whether you speak English or French, what education you have, etc. and assigns points accordingly.

Please keep your personal comments to yourself.

and ... everybody voting today?

Your wrong. There is a written English test under many categories of Immigration.

Go to the internet and study like I have on these issues.

Atleast your willing to read up on stuff which is good. Eventually you'll be conservative minded. But you need to learn some life lessons first.

You need to go into a job and loose it to an immigrant. You need to have a loved one die becuase our joke medical system is clogged with people from the 3rd world who cannot speak english..

Why not go read up on what an insurance policy is and how one works.

Then see if our healthcare is insurance based.

And then see how it's bound to fail.

So you see, I have fact, you have a lot of reading up to do.

mikedavid00 · October 10, 2007

Sometimes it's posts like these that make me muse whether a point system should be in place that a voter must pass before they are allowed to cast their ballot. At least Civics 101 would help......

If you are don't pay taxes, you should not vote.

If you are a benefaciary of our social system without paying for it, you should have no say on how it's run.

I truly beleive that.

jennie · October 10, 2007

If you are don't pay taxes, you should not vote.
If you are a benefaciary of our social system without paying for it, you should have no say on how it's run.

I truly beleive that.

Well that is interesting... but stupid. That would mean both the poor and the rich who pay no income tax would not be able to vote? mikedavid you have a lot of growing up to do.