Williams promises cash for every baby born in N.L.

[GreenWhiteandPink]

The election called yesterday for Oct 9,2007

CORNER BROOK, N.L. -- Premier Danny Williams unveiled a key plank in his party's election platform today, pledging to give families in Newfoundland and Labrador $1,000 for every baby born or adopted in the province.He is also promising to put more cops on the streets, build more long-term care facilities and maintain the province's freeze on post-secondary tuition.

William's promises Baby bonus.

Anyway I think the $1000 for each kid is a bad idea, it's only a incentive for people on social assistance to have more kids. It's worthless to any working person.

Edited September 18, 2007 by GreenWhiteandPink

[geoffrey]

If I were an Ontarian, I'd be livid.

Newfoundland now has more economic strength per capita, yet receives billions a year from Ontario taxpayers. And now Danny Williams is handing it out to babies.

It's time to tell Danny to pay up, or get out. This is beyond absurd.

You see, when Ralph gave us all cheques, that was Alberta money. Danny is handing out cash earned by Albertans and Ontarians just because the law works that way.

It's time to change the law.

[GreenWhiteandPink]

It's time to change the law.

Harper already changed the law, 50% of resource revenue will be exempt from equalization calcuations, the same rules will apply to Alberta and Ontario, if they were to require equaliaztion.

Newfoundland now has more economic strength per capita, yet receives billions a year from Ontario taxpayers

Newfoundland and Labrador will not receive billions a year either, only 632 million in 2006-2007, then 477 million next and 197million the year after, and it's from the federal goverment in Ottawa not from the province and people of Ontario!

William's also promised to increase the number of child care spaces by 30%, the money available to low income families for daycare by 30%, and top EI parental leave by $100 a month. Much better idea's than just handing out money to people to produce a kid.

Edited September 20, 2007 by GreenWhiteandPink

[jbg]

If I were an Ontarian, I'd be livid.

Newfoundland now has more economic strength per capita, yet receives billions a year from Ontario taxpayers. And now Danny Williams is handing it out to babies.

It's time to tell Danny to pay up, or get out. This is beyond absurd.

You see, when Ralph gave us all cheques, that was Alberta money. Danny is handing out cash earned by Albertans and Ontarians just because the law works that way.

Free money always creates perverse incentives.

[BornAlbertan]

it's from the federal goverment in Ottawa not from the province and people of Ontario!

You are right. It is from Ottawa. However, considering Alberta and Ontario are the only provinces who are net contributors to this "fine" country of ours...I guess you could say it IS Alberta's and Ontario's money because well...those two provinces are funding this damn country and the "Maritime Destitution Fund".

[GreenWhiteandPink]

You are right. It is from Ottawa. However, considering Alberta and Ontario are the only provinces who are net contributors to this "fine" country of ours...I guess you could say it IS Alberta's and Ontario's money because well...those two provinces are funding this damn country and the "Maritime Destitution Fund".

The Federal government also collects income and other taxes, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians also pay federal income tax, so maybe maybe this is the money being sent to Newfoundland and Labrador.

Alberta's and Ontario's money because well...those two provinces are funding this damn country and the "Maritime Destitution Fund

Newfoundland and Labrador are not part of the Maritimes.

[jbg]

Newfoundland and Labrador are not part of the Maritimes.

I know that. What's the explanation though?

[Newfie Canadian]

Speaking as a Newfoundlander and someone who has voted for Danny's team in the past, (the future is not guaranteed), I would suggest that the idea, no matter where one thinks the money is coming from, is ludicrous. Danny would be better off, to say nothing about Newfoundlanders and Labradorians as a whole (and not just those who can procreate), if he spent the money on viable programs and initiatives to keep people in the province.

[geoffrey]

The Federal government also collects income and other taxes, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians also pay federal income tax, so maybe maybe this is the money being sent to Newfoundland and Labrador.

Equalisation is based on Federal income tax among others. Newfoundland gets more than it receives, only Ontario and Alberta give more than we get back. So therefore, Newfoundland is getting money from Ontario, despite having more revenue per capita than Ontario.

What the hell is that? If I was an Ontarian, I'd only be voting for those looking to cut the Newfies off. This is absurd. And now that Danny is just throwing cash around, it's even worse.

[GreenWhiteandPink]

Equalisation is based on Federal income tax among others. Newfoundland gets more than it receives, only Ontario and Alberta give more than we get back. So therefore, Newfoundland is getting money from Ontario, despite having more revenue per capita than Ontario.

What the hell is that? If I was an Ontarian, I'd only be voting for those looking to cut the Newfies off. This is absurd. And now that Danny is just throwing cash around, it's even worse.

Since when does a Albertan give a damn about Ontario? You don't of course, your just using it as a excuse to insult and ridicule Nlder's.

[geoffrey]

Since when does a Albertan give a damn about Ontario? You don't of course, your just using it as a excuse to insult and ridicule Nlder's.

Nah, just sympathizing with the other province that pays through our noses for other provinces to do nothing about their underlying social issues.

There is no rational ethical reason to exploit Ontario like Newfoundland is now.

[August1991]

If I were an Ontarian, I'd be livid.

Newfoundland now has more economic strength per capita, yet receives billions a year from Ontario taxpayers. And now Danny Williams is handing it out to babies.

It's time to tell Danny to pay up, or get out. This is beyond absurd.

You see, when Ralph gave us all cheques, that was Alberta money. Danny is handing out cash earned by Albertans and Ontarians just because the law works that way.

It's time to change the law.

Geoffrey, you entirely miss the point.

The federal government doesn't take money from "Alberta". It takes money from "individuals". There are "individuals" in Newfoundland, Ontario and Alberta who pay more than they receive. (And there are "individuals" in Newfoundland, Ontario and Alberta who receive more than they pay.)

Provinces don't pay taxes, individuals do. (Similarly, countries don't trade, individuals trade.)

Now then, do you want to say that as an individual in Alberta, you pay more tax? Really? I'd argue that men pay more tax than women. Retired people pay less tax than working people. People in the Far North pay less tax than other Canadians. Smokers pay more tax than non-smokers. If you have young children, you pay less tax than childless people. And registered Indians pay less tax than most of us.

Welcome to the institution of government - similar to the institution of marriage. By force, it takes from some and gives to others.

Danny Williams wants to give money to pregnant women. Eh? (That would set me off on the question about who gets government money.)

Governments have the authority to move money between individuals. (I'm inclined to believe now that these transfers are essentially random.) It is false to claim that a province pays and a province receives. It is individuals who pay, and an individual who receives. It is arbitrary which individual is which.

----

Whether taxes or free money, the question to ask is what people will do to avoid the tax or what they'll do to get the free money. A tax on cigarettes makes sense because the way to evade the tax is to stop smoking. A subsidy for kids (or elementary education) makes sense because the only way to get it is to have a kid.

Subsidizing health services is a lousy idea. Anyone can claim the subsidy.

Edited September 23, 2007 by August1991

[geoffrey]

The federal government doesn't take money from "Alberta". It takes money from "individuals". There are "individuals" in Newfoundland, Ontario and Alberta who pay more than they receive. (And there are "individuals" in Newfoundland, Ontario and Alberta who receive more than they pay.)

It's even worse when you put it that way. Newfoundlanders are coercively stealing funds from individuals in order to live more lavishly than the majority of those that are being robbed? Great. Sounds even better.

Provinces don't pay taxes, individuals do. (Similarly, countries don't trade, individuals trade.)

That's convenient, and I often hear this from those in have-not provinces. Unfortunately, the cheque from Ottawa is written to the province of Newfoundland, not Rex Murphy.

Now then, do you want to say that as an individual in Alberta, you pay more tax? Really? I'd argue that men pay more tax than women. Retired people pay less tax than working people. People in the Far North pay less tax than other Canadians. Smokers pay more tax than non-smokers. If you have young children, you pay less tax than childless people. And registered Indians pay less tax than most of us.

We don't pay more tax. We get less returned to us. We are the greatest victims of social transfer. If you are required to pay the same as another individual, but by law get less in return, you'd say that was unjust. That's all equalisation is.

Welcome to the institution of government - similar to the institution of marriage. By force, it takes from some and gives to others.

That's hardly a justification for it. Again, the typical response from have-not province residents. "That's just the way the constitution here works, live with it."

Danny Williams wants to give money to pregnant women. Eh? (That would set me off on the question about who gets government money.)

That's fine. But his province shouldn't be receiving equalisation. He's simply rubbing it in our faces that he's successfully pushed over politicans to the point where he gets large sums of money from individuals in provinces far richer than he. He is the guy living off United Way assistance while driving a BMW.

Governments have the authority to move money between individuals. (I'm inclined to believe now that these transfers are essentially random.)

Not a moral authority, just simply one in law.

It is false to claim that a province pays and a province receives. It is individuals who pay, and an individual who receives. It is arbitrary which individual is which.

This is beyond absurd. On average, Albertans pay more to Ottawa, we in general earn more. We also get the least returned per capita. Can you not comprehend this? Most provinces see a net benefit from Ottawa, their individuals benefit more than it costs them. Albertans and Ontarians happily pay for these individuals to have services their province would otherwise not be able to afford. Living in Quebec saves you money because you get additional services you've never earned. Albertans and Ontarians, on average, earn them for you.

You can break it down on an individual basis to hide the size or the scope of equalisation, but the bottom line clearly remains.

Living in Newfoundland is even worse. They pay in the same as an Ontarian, make the same as an Ontarian, but receive access to far more collective funds than anyone else.

Whether taxes or free money, the question to ask is what people will do to avoid the tax or what they'll do to get the free money.

Let Albetans have their money to decide then. Danny has no business handing my cash out to parents in Newfoundland. He especially doesn't have the right to do so on the backs of Ontarian taxpayers.

Say the pot of money is fixed, tax is 15% and we have a billion dollars of income nationwide or whatever. Look at it another way. I have no power to control the government of Newfoundland or Quebec for example. If they chose negligent economic policies and poor ways to spend money, I have to foot the bill through reduced transfers to Alberta. I have to pay more for services here because people now pay less in Quebec. On an individual and on an aggregate basis.

Equalisation encourages poor decision making, it encourages politically convenient choices without any responsibility and it encourages negative reaction towards the situation of stronger economic powers of the country. We need Newfie and Maritime workers out here, but their governments pay them more to stay there (look at Newfoundland's ridiculously cheap university, many stay because the government pays thousands for them to, with the money earned by those that suffer the greatest from the labour shortage).

This is the fundamental economic reason why Canada is a very poor idea.

[GreenWhiteandPink]

Say the pot of money is fixed, tax is 15% and we have a billion dollars of income nationwide or whatever. Look at it another way. I have no power to control the government of Newfoundland or Quebec for example. If they chose negligent economic policies and poor ways to spend money, I have to foot the bill through reduced transfers to Alberta. I have to pay more for services here because people now pay less in Quebec. On an individual and on an aggregate basis.

So...we all belong to the same country. People in Quebec and NL pay the same federal taxes as Albertan's why can't you understand this!! The province that you live in is irrevelant.

Equalisation encourages poor decision making, it encourages politically convenient choices without any responsibility and it encourages negative reaction towards the situation of stronger economic powers of the country. We need Newfie and Maritime workers out here, but their governments pay them more to stay there (look at Newfoundland's ridiculously cheap university, many stay because the government pays thousands for them to, with the money earned by those that suffer the greatest from the labour shortage).

Yeah you can't have Newfounlanders and Labrador becoming educated, then they may start sticking up for themselves. You make it sound in Nlder's only exist to be a source of labour for Alberta, the whole world don't revolve Alberta Geoffrey. It just seems like you hate the idea of NL becomeing self sufficant, just because this will hurt the availablity of cheaper labour for Alberta's. NL's population is after droping by 70000 in the past 15 years for Christ sake!

[geoffrey]

So...we all belong to the same country. People in Quebec and NL pay the same federal taxes as Albertan's why can't you understand this!! The province that you live in is irrevelant.

You receive many more times the benefit from those taxes however. Justify that.

Yeah you can't have Newfounlanders and Labrador becoming educated, then they may start sticking up for themselves. You make it sound in Nlder's only exist to be a source of labour for Alberta, the whole world don't revolve Alberta Geoffrey. It just seems like you hate the idea of NL becomeing self sufficant, just because this will hurt the availablity of cheaper labour for Alberta's. NL's population is after droping by 70000 in the past 15 years for Christ sake!

You already have an educated population, and it served them for nothing. Why should I pay money in order for Newfoundlanders to have cheaper social services, cheaper education and so on then I receive myself?

It's beyond absurd.

[jbg]

Since when does a Albertan give a damn about Ontario? You don't of course, your just using it as a excuse to insult and ridicule Nlder's.

Albertans love Ontarians (especially Torontonians) and Quebeckers. On my one visit to Calgary, just about everyone I talked to expressed admiration for two things; Toronto and Trudeau, the "Two T's".

[GreenWhiteandPink]

Danny has no business handing my cash out to parents in Newfoundland.

Any how much would your share of the equalization money sent to NL be? Three-four dollars on your Federal income tax that you pay each year. PM me your mailing address and I will send you 4 bucks if you will like. Next year I will send you 2 then a dollar the next. In four years time NL will receive no equalization, so I won't have to send you anything, but I'm sure you will find some new gripe against NL then.

Edited September 24, 2007 by GreenWhiteandPink

[ScottSA]

I'm thrilled. It's about time we started producing our own population instead of importing it from third world crapholes.

[jbg]

I'm thrilled. It's about time we started producing our own population instead of importing it from third world crapholes.

Who else to man the cabs from Pearson Airport to Yonge and Bloor?

[ScottSA]

Who else to man the cabs from Pearson Airport to Yonge and Bloor?

Apparently they won't take about half the population anyway, what with the dos and don'ts of Islam. Easier to walk.

[jawapunk]

Well, Geoffrey, why don't you cry more?

There are thousands of Newfoundlanders working in Alberta without which you would not have the requisite labour to even be a so called "have" province. You even admitted earlier that Alberta needs more Maritimers to move out West to keep your economy going. All Danny Williams is trying to do is give people an incentive to stay in Newfoundland. And I beg to differ but he is giving Newfoundland tax money to Newfoundlanders. If you can prove to me that this money come directly from your pocket, I'll write you a check for the $0.30 I may owe you. It is within our rights to legislate provincial budgets.

Newfoundland is weening itself off of equalisation. We aren't lazy, we are educated and we are proud. Why do you think we want to keep resource money? To keep more people in this province, so we can collect welfare checks? To Justify even more money from equalization? No, don't be a moron. We want to be a self-sufficient, net gain province. We are on the correct path, it took a few years after our fisheries collapsed, but we are getting there. Newfoundland doesn't even take the most from Equalization, in fact we are far from it. If the farming industry out west collapsed or god forbid your oil industry, you would also take YEARS to adjust. Just as Newfoundland has had to do. There are more industries here and if more young people stay, the province can keep improving this. So again, cry more.

Edited October 4, 2007 by jawapunk

[jennie]

Well, Geoffrey, why don't you cry more?

There are thousands of Newfoundlanders working in Alberta without which you would not have the requisite labour to even be a so called "have" province. You even admitted earlier that Alberta needs more Maritimers to move out West to keep your economy going. All Danny Williams is trying to do is give people an incentive to stay in Newfoundland. And I beg to differ but he is giving Newfoundland tax money to Newfoundlanders. If you can prove to me that this money come directly from your pocket, I'll write you a check for the $0.30 I may owe you. It is within our rights to legislate provincial budgets.

Newfoundland is weening itself off of equalisation. We aren't lazy, we are educated and we are proud. Why do you think we want to keep resource money? To keep more people in this province, so we can collect welfare checks? To Justify even more money from equalization? No, don't be a moron. We want to be a self-sufficient, net gain province. We are on the correct path, it took a few years after our fisheries collapsed, but we are getting there. Newfoundland doesn't even take the most from Equalization, in fact we are far from it. If the farming industry out west collapsed or god forbid your oil industry, you would also take YEARS to adjust. Just as Newfoundland has had to do. There are more industries here and if more young people stay, the province can keep improving this. So again, cry more.

Well said.

GO Newfoundland!

[NovaScotian]

Equalisation encourages poor decision making, it encourages politically convenient choices without any responsibility and it encourages negative reaction towards the situation of stronger economic powers of the country. We need Newfie and Maritime workers out here, but their governments pay them more to stay there (look at Newfoundland's ridiculously cheap university, many stay because the government pays thousands for them to, with the money earned by those that suffer the greatest from the labour shortage).

This is the fundamental economic reason why Canada is a very poor idea.

Equalization is not inherently responsible for keeping workers here. I would place most of the blame on the federal EI system with is very damaging to our economy. We need workers here as well. Not to long ago I read a story about a McDonald's in Sydney that was having trouble finding workers. This area has unemployment of 15%....it is just more profitable to stay on EI and welfare then to move into the workforce. This raises the cost of labour in an area that should have very low labour costs, stifling a potentially dynamic local economy.

[geoffrey]

Nova Scotian,

I think your right. I've never blamed individual Newfoundlanders or Nova Scotians or even Quebeckers for the injustice that is equalisation. The Federal government is soley to blame for the mess. EI is the best example (and another example of equalisation not shown in the stats)!

EI for seasonal workers needs to be ended. That's step one. Fishermen can go work in McDonalds in the off season. If you don't make enough doing job one, it's time to get another. I'd personally love to only work year end (I'm an accountant) and take the rest of the year off at the taxpayer's expense, but I don't think many would be impressed. Most people would assume that I'd be expected to work a full year. I expect the same of seasonal workers. Ski lift bums don't get EI in the summer, they work on the mountain bike trails or they go plant trees or whatever. The exception for fishermen and related industry is absurd.

An area with 15% unemployment struggling to find workers is definately an indication that the EI and welfare system is terribly flawed. Essientially, if there is a job to be worked, you should not be allowed to refuse and maintain EI payments.

[jbg]

This area has unemployment of 15%....it is just more profitable to stay on EI and welfare then to move into the workforce. This raises the cost of labour in an area that should have very low labour costs, stifling a potentially dynamic local economy.

Sounds a bit like New York. Upstate New York is economically devastated as a result of perverse incentives. NYC area is more dynamic but only because of geographical accident of being the capital of the world. Living costs are outrageously high as a result of "competition" from welfare and unemployment.