John Tory Commits Political Suicide

jennie · September 7, 2007

It's hard to disagree with the concept of funding other faith based schools as long as we continue to fund Catholic schools.
Besides it's darned hypocritical of McGuinty (and others) to go go on about secular schooling and all when they attended Catholic schools themselves. Not to mention that Tory's comments about teaching creationism seem to have been taken out of context as creationist material is already included in the religious studies courses taught at the publicly funded RC schools in Ontario, and, his comment referred only to religious studies, not science class.

What about the aboriginal creationist myths - I understand they are taught in some history courses, should that be allowed or not, or is just plain politically incorrect to talk about that one.

I think he was asked whether it should be taught along with evolution - i.e., in science class. There is no problem at all with the Creation story in religion classes, whether as doctrine (RC, faith based) or part of academic study of world religions (public).

McGuinty is correct that we must maintain secular public schools that do not deliver religious doctrine, as that is what most parents want and choose. However, I think we can also have Catholic and other faith-based schools.

capricorn · September 7, 2007

McGuinty is correct that we must maintain secular public schools that do not deliver religious doctrine, as that is what most parents want and choose.

As pointed out by many posters, McGuinty went to a Catholic school, his kids do now and his wife teaches at a Catholic school. I have not heard him call for disbanding the Catholic school system. I wonder why? :rolleyes:

It's all very well to disapprove of Tory's plan for faith based schools. At least Tory is up-front and is not talking out of both sides of his mouth.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/is...9c-ec9e87b79b2e

mikedavid00 · September 7, 2007

If you want something different, you pay for it and the government refunds your portion of government education.

No.

No. There will be no gov't mixing with religion. We need full seperation and to move on.

Why must you feel that our gov't have to fund everyones special interest? We should no longer be funding cultures.

I personally feel we should leave well enough alone and continue with the statuse quou.

mikedavid00 · September 7, 2007

As pointed out by many posters, McGuinty went to a Catholic school, his kids do now and his wife teaches at a Catholic school. I have not heard him call for disbanding the Catholic school system. I wonder why?
It's all very well to disapprove of Tory's plan for faith based schools. At least Tory is up-front and is not talking out of both sides of his mouth.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/is...9c-ec9e87b79b2e

I went to a Catholic school all my years. (although i'm not catholic). I can say that these are pretty much public schools with a uniform.

The School of Sheriah will not be like this.

Don't you support seperation of chuch and state? ISn't that what we're based off?

I feel we are heading down the most dangerous rd.

Progession is not to entangle church and state. That's what made the west what it is.

Denny · September 7, 2007

I dont' think we shold mix relgioin with govenrment either, but schools are not government.

Who is to say the Creationism is off base? There are many highly educated Chistian leaders in the U.S.A. who support creationsim, such as recently deceased Dr. Kennedy. I think Canada is somewhat of an oddball, by embracing such a secular outlook in education, particularly higher education. Most countries in the world, outside of Europe and the U.S.A., have a primary focus on religious schools. And, in future, the U.S.A. is leaning that way too, with the use of a voucher system for education. The U.S., despite its offical secular stance, has even opened the door to many faith based ventures (eg - health care, prisons, and health clinics) tax supported to serve the public. But, they cannot mix the religious teachigs with their services. For instance, a Catholic clinic cannot force patents to attend services.

What is ironic, is that it is Canada which officially recognizes God in its constitution and national anthem. Some days, I think God feels short changed by our repudiation of him in our actions.

jennie · September 7, 2007

I dont' think we shold mix relgioin with govenrment either, but schools are not government.
Who is to say the Creationism is off base? There are many highly educated Chistian leaders in the U.S.A. who support creationsim, such as recently deceased Dr. Kennedy. I think Canada is somewhat of an oddball, by embracing such a secular outlook in education, particularly higher education. Most countries in the world, outside of Europe and the U.S.A., have a primary focus on religious schools. And, in future, the U.S.A. is leaning that way too, with the use of a voucher system for education. The U.S., despite its offical secular stance, has even opened the door to many faith based ventures (eg - health care, prisons, and health clinics) tax supported to serve the public. But, they cannot mix the religious teachigs with their services. For instance, a Catholic clinic cannot force patents to attend services.

What is ironic, is that it is Canada which officially recognizes God in its constitution and national anthem. Some days, I think God feels short changed by our repudiation of him in our actions.

I am sorry you feel that way. There is no intention to "repudiate" anything or anyone's religion; just an attempt to practice freedom of (or from) religion; feeling that one is being imposed on you is very uncomfortable.

Leafless · September 8, 2007

If that's what someone wants to do, I could really care less. Seems foolish of them but oh well, it's their choice.

Your immaturity is astounding.

The majority aren't Church going and are mostly 'Christian' because they are told to be, not because they actually believe in it or follow any of the rules and regulations of the religion.

That kind of logic can apply all across society including relating to many Canadians who are called Canadian but really despise the word, but nevertheless are all labelled Canadians whether we like it or not.

Face it, the country is majority Christian.

This is all fine, but do consider once the government gets involved in religion, it's hard to get it out. If they start promoting religion (why you want that, I'm unsure), then they have control over it. Look at Quebec prior to the Quiet Revolution. It was such a tangled web of religion and politics. I think they are best left seperate.

Quebecers up until the late 50's were fully controlled by the Catholic church, a fate decided by themselves but with dire consequences.

Religion has no place in politics and politics none in religion. Christians do and should have the right to practice their religion in Canada, free from harrasment and other abuse. That said the government really has no business at all in dealing with religion... that would take away the big ol' constitutional freedom of conscience and religion thingy.
That's rather irrelevant. Jews, Muslims and some others all believe in 'God.' It's not founded on the basis of 'Jesus.'

God in the preamble of our 'Charter' is the successor from a longer version from our 1960 'Bill of Rights' and reads:

"The Parliament of Canada, affirming that the Canadian Nation is founded upon principles that acknowledge the supremacy of God, the dignity and worth of the human person and the position of the family in a society of free men and free institutions;

Affirming also that men and institutions remain free only when freedom is founded upon respect for moral and spiritual values and the rule of law;

And being desirous of enshrining these principles and the human rights and fundamental freedoms derived from them, in a Bill of Rights which shall reflect the respect of Parliament for its constitutional authority and which shall ensure the protection of these rights and freedoms in Canada."

But back to the 'Charter' it should be noted the Conservatives and religious groups wanted 'God' acknowledged in the 'Charter':

"There were, however, various religious and Conservative criticisms of the Charter during its drafting, with fears that denominational schools and Canada's abortion law were threatened. At this time as well, religious groups in Canada such as 100 Huntley Street and the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada were growing and wanted God acknowledged in the Constitution.

So again again it is obvious what 'God' we are talking about and it is the 'Christian God'.

Make no mistake our country has Christian roots, right from the start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_t...ts_and_Freedoms

Edited September 8, 2007 by Leafless

Posit · September 8, 2007

We should note that it was under Bill Davis - another Conservative - that the Catholic School Boards became fully funded. Tory like Davis is simply pushing the Conservative agenda in using the public education system to promote Christianity.

mikedavid00 · September 8, 2007

and are mostly 'Christian' because they are told to be, not because they actually believe in it or follow any of the rules and regulations of the religion.

That's not true. Polls suggest that the majority of Canadians are Christians and identify with God. I rarely meet true athiests. My ex gf was an athiest. She was Sikh also. hehe

People just don't like bringing religion into politics which is what might happen in a true disaster.

You don't vision the scene of stepping outside your doorstep in the morning and having an Islamic school giving call to prayer. You will see kids all wearing white long pijamas, bowing down towards mecca, and a loud speaker with prayer.

Right in our neighbourhood, promoting segregation, through our tax dollars.

Anyone supporting this has got to be out of their mind. The reason why it's not happening right now is because they simply don't have the financial recoursces to build these kinds of schools all over Ontario and pay teachers. This takes billions of dollars to accomplish.

Tory is promosing 400 million right off the bat.

I really wish Tory was never around. He's a true burden on Ontario. I wish he'd move away so Canada can move forward.

jennie · September 8, 2007

Anyone supporting this has got to be out of their mind. The reason why it's not happening right now is because they simply don't have the financial recoursces to build these kinds of schools all over Ontario and pay teachers. This takes billions of dollars to accomplish.
Tory is promosing 400 million right off the bat.

I really wish Tory was never around. He's a true burden on Ontario. I wish he'd move away so Canada can move forward.

Tory has made a mess of what could have been a good thing. As for building schools ... who is talking about building schools? The schools already exist. It is just talk of funding them.

Leafless · September 8, 2007

We should note that it was under Bill Davis - another Conservative - that the Catholic School Boards became fully funded. Tory like Davis is simply pushing the Conservative agenda in using the public education system to promote Christianity.

This is BS.

What really happened, was:

The passage, which Mr. Sanderson agreed to share, documents the cardinal's intense and secretive discussions with Mr. Davis. It reveals that he, his brother, Bishop Alexander Carter of Sault Ste. Marie, along with Archbishop Philip Pocock and realtor-philanthropist J. J. Barnicke, were key players in a "drive to convince Mr. Davis" to fully fund Catholic schools.

While claiming no desire to enter the education debate under way - whether to issue tax credits to parents of children attending private schools - he said: "I'm not going to say whether it's good or bad. I'm only going to say this. If the tax credits for parents who send their children to private schools diminishes in any way the monetary support and philosophical support for the two public school systems, it is then totally wrong. I say that because if you don't have the support and the confidence in the public systems, then society is going to be the one that suffers."
Would the same not apply to financing faith-based private schools?

We'll know soon enough whether, this time around, the public of Ontario - becoming more culturally diverse with the arrival of each overseas plane - sees the equity of extending funding to faiths beyond the Catholic system.

http://www.rbcinvest.theglobeandmail.com/s...Comment/3/3/17/

Higgly · September 8, 2007

Dalton is liar. His party does the same political tricks. They loot the public funds the same way. They lie, cheat and steal and pay off groups to get votes.

Amazing. Conrad Black is going to jail for the same thing Jim Flaherty did in his last budget before the Ontario legislature - i.e. fudge the numbers and lie through his teeth about it, and you are calling McGuinty a liar?

Personally if Tory gets in, I'm gonna be pushing for Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Confucian, Bhuddist, Dadist and Rastafarian schools LOL

Edited September 8, 2007 by Higgly

jennie · September 8, 2007

Amazing. Conrad Black is going to jail for the same thing Jim Flaherty did in his last budget before the Ontario legislature - i.e. fudge the numbers and lie through his teeth about it, and you are calling McGuinty a liar?
Personally if Tory gets in, I'm gonna be pushing for Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Confucian, Bhuddist, Dadist and Rastafarian schools LOL

If Tory gets in all of those are possible, and maybe even if he doesn't!

Higgly · September 8, 2007

I'm certainly crossing my fingers for the Rasta school.

capricorn · September 8, 2007

I went to a Catholic school all my years. (although i'm not catholic). I can say that these are pretty much public schools with a uniform.
The School of Sheriah will not be like this.

Don't you support seperation of chuch and state? ISn't that what we're based off?

I feel we are heading down the most dangerous rd.

Progession is not to entangle church and state. That's what made the west what it is.

I spent 9 years in the Catholic school system. Even so, I think it is discriminatory and unfair to fund one faith and not others.

Yes, I support separation of church and state. By state I read government. IMO schools are not government.

I support equality in funding schools. That said, if any issue calls for a referendum in the upcoming election, this is it. Let Ontarians decide. Otherwise, when Dalton is reelected, he will maintain the Catholic system and this issue will not be resolved properly.

Higgly · September 8, 2007

I spent 9 years in the Catholic school system. Even so, I think it is discriminatory and unfair to fund one faith and not others.
Yes, I support separation of church and state. By state I read government. IMO schools are not government.

I support equality in funding schools. That said, if any issue calls for a referendum in the upcoming election, this is it. Let Ontarians decide. Otherwise, when Dalton is reelected, he will maintain the Catholic system and this issue will not be resolved properly.

Great. I hope one of the options is to abolish the separate school system and merge it into the public school system. Otherwise we're going to end up with every weirdo with a funny hat wanting his own school system in the name of some supreme being, animal, plant, planetary object, what have you...

Rue · September 8, 2007

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home
Despite my support for the Separate School System, Tory is the wrong person to champion the cause. I know many believers in and out of the school system but I don't know any who actually believe the literal version of creation.

Suggesting that it could be taught alongside the scientific theories is plainly anti-intellectual poop.

Maybe Tory is trying to court the evangelical vote....but being in violation of the curriculum isn';t the way, especially if one of the selling points of broadening the separate system is to reassure the public that the curriculum will be adhered to.

Yoh Dance Dude his words were taken out of context. They were never intended in the way some are spinning them and I personally believe people are not that stupid nor will think anything of what he said. All he said was he saw no reason the creationist theory could not be taught. He didn't say present it as a swcientific concept. He simply meant like any view it could be discussed with an open mind and why shouldn't it?

In a proper curriculum it has a place in study ALL religions and in understanding what some people still believe and how it is an example of how some people do not believe in science but prefer such theories.

That is all he was saying. The fact that this theory is contraversial was not the issue nor is he saying he agreed with it.

He was just saying teaching ideas requires an open mind and flexible approach.

Its a tempest in a tea-pot I think.

Me Dancedude you know where I stand. I personally believe NO school should be religious. I think it is dead wrong to have a seperate Catholic publically funded school system. That is blatant religious discrimination in favour of Catholics and against all other peoples and it is wrong and was wrong and the only reason it was passed was because Premier Davis a good Catholic felt it his religious duty to pass it.

Dalton McGuinty is a prize hippocrate saying no other schools should be funded but the Catholic one should particularly since his wife teaches in a Catholic school and he went to one. Talk about a bias conflict of interest.

The point is NO one should have funding for their religious views whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Wiccan what-ever.

No the solution isn't trying to fund hundreds of religions. Where will it end? Who next? Satanists?

No the point is Ontario has to do away with all religious affiliation and have one public school system that is neutral.

It then should have a curriculum that teaches theology but presents ALL religions and compares them and when explaining them explains creationism. It is all about context.

If people want to send their kids to special religious or heritage programs that is their private responsibility.

The state only has an obligation by the way to teach English and French. It then hopefully can offer other language instruction such as Spanish or German if it can find the proper teachers but this would be optional and based on languages not preference to one person's culture over another.

The problem is no politician has the guts to alienate the majority Catholics in the province. Tory took a smarmy way out. This way he can monopolize his sensitivity to minority religions and make himself look more Liberal then McGuinty.

As a Jew I resent being stereotyped as someone who needs his religion funded in a public school. Absolute horse shit. My religious and cultural heritage is my private responsibility just as it is for Scots, Greeks, Italians, etc.

No good comes of mixing religion with public taxes.

OK Dancing Dude I have had my say. Back to you and the others.

Rue · September 8, 2007

If Tory gets in all of those are possible, and maybe even if he doesn't!

Don't forget the Satanists and those two guys that look like ZZ Top that smoke Marijhuana and believe it is their religion and have run for office.

I would like to see legally how a religion will bedefined to become eligible for funding.

RELIGIOUS ELIGIBILITY FOR PUBLIC SCHOOL FUNDING ACT OF ONTARIO

Statutes of Ontario, 2008, C. 587

Preamble

Whereas it is the intention of the Province of Ontario to fund public shcools of a

religious nature it is necessary to define the criteria for religious eligibility for funding.

Definitions

"religion"

a thought or thoughts held by more then one person as to the creation or meaning of existence

"eligibility"

anyone constituting a thought or thoughts concerning the meaning of existence desiring funding by

the Ministry of Education, of the Province of Ontario

"'circumscized"

a possible indication of religious predeliction

"naked"

a state associated with specific religious beliefs".

"satanist"

one who openly supports the Toronto Maple Leafs

Edited September 8, 2007 by Rue

jbg · September 9, 2007

Great. I hope one of the options is to abolish the separate school system and merge it into the public school system. Otherwise we're going to end up with every weirdo with a funny hat wanting his own school system in the name of some supreme being, animal, plant, planetary object, what have you...

For once we agree. Good post.

If people want their children to attend religious school, let them pay.

jennie · September 9, 2007

For once we agree. Good post.
If people want their children to attend religious school, let them pay.

And so ... we still have two schools of thought on this ... no three ...

status quo

stop funding Catholic schools

extend funding to all religious schools that implement the Ontario Curriculum and educational policies.

jennie · September 9, 2007

And so ... we still have two schools of thought on this ... no three ...
status quo

stop funding Catholic schools

extend funding to all religious schools that implement the Ontario Curriculum and educational policies.

It will be a question of numbers at the polls.

But it is too bad, imo, that Tory has made a mess of number 2. .... er ... extending funding

jayem13 · September 28, 2007

I'm not voting for him for a reason. I hear him all the time on local morning radio.
He's just 'not conservative'. He's really NDP/Trudeau'ist. he's an idealist. He belives in banning everyting and controlling free speech (no litterally.. he wants a complete ban on cel phones while driving').

Supposedly the feds really want him in power because they know that once Tory has won the immigrant vote, they will likely win the next election and gain the majority and this is one of the secret reasons they could be holding back parlement.

For the feds this election means everything.

For us Canadians this issue means a lot because it's almost like a referendum; you want A or B.

In this case, do you want more ethnic ghettoization in Canada, or do you want a melting pot.

Vote Tory if you want further segragation and cans of worms. Vote Dalton if you want the Devil you Know.

Canadians tend to do the latter.

Don't vote Dalton for any reason. It will take a long time before Tory's plan become s law, and maybe he will take a page from Dalton and say after being elected that it can't be done. Can anyone give me a single reason for voting for Dalton?

kengs333 · September 28, 2007

Don't vote Dalton for any reason. It will take a long time before Tory's plan become s law, and maybe he will take a page from Dalton and say after being elected that it can't be done. Can anyone give me a single reason for voting for Dalton?

Yeah, so Tory won't become Premier...

Posit · September 28, 2007

Yeah, so Tory won't become Premier...

By combining polls CTV predicted that if the election were to be held today the following results would be posted:

Liberals 60 seats, Conservatives 35 seats, NDP 12 seats.......no guesses on others..... That is majority territory.

capricorn · September 29, 2007

By combining polls CTV predicted that if the election were to be held today the following results would be posted:
Liberals 60 seats, Conservatives 35 seats, NDP 12 seats.......no guesses on others..... That is majority territory.

Oh great! Another McGuinty majority gives him the green light for more tax increases. What else are the Liberals to think? That we disagreed with the health tax? Nooooo...it's OK by us, Dalton and we reward you for it. With McGuinty's constant whining that he had no choice in imposing the health care tax I bet that down the road he will increase it. Then again, he might use the back door and increase personal income tax instead. Any way he does it, he'll do it.