Can Canada not control the corporations? Isn't that called fascism

[jennie]

Who is Canada and who are the corporations? Think about it and you'll realise they are the same people. Can you lose control over yourself?

I think you have just confirmed my worst fears.

[geoffrey]

Excuse me? I'm confused.

[jennie]

Excuse me? I'm confused.

Are you saying the corporations and government are 'one', running the country for their own ends?

[geoffrey]

Are you saying the corporations and government are 'one', running the country for their own ends?

No, I'm saying you and the corporations are one, funding your paycheque, standard of living and retirement. Government doesn't exist beyond individuals, nor do corporations. They are fictional entities (the government less so than a corporation).

[jennie]

No, I'm saying you and the corporations are one, funding your paycheque, standard of living and retirement. Government doesn't exist beyond individuals, nor do corporations. They are fictional entities (the government less so than a corporation).

Ok so if I want to be 'heard' by my corporations and governments, I cease investing in them ... money, votes, taxes, public 'loyalty' etc.

...Is that my option?

[Posit]

Government doesn't exist beyond individuals, nor do corporations. They are fictional entities (the government less so than a corporation).

Wrong. Corporations have the identity and force of a person beyond the group of individuals that hide behind it. Government has nothing to do with individual choice, or operation. They are are cartel of sorts with power beyond not only the individuals but the politicians we elect as overseers.

[old_bold&cold]

It really does not matter as to whether Iroquois or Mohawke are releated or just joined in protest. The simple fact is the protest is now illegal and has been so deemed by the courts, who are the so called keepers of the law of the land. It is not up to Native groups to be the keepers, and the said same also must follow the laws of the land or we will jail them, or what ever else it takes to get things back to what the courts ruled. Last Friday the natives drumming and chanted to drown out what they know was a court writ, that they did not want to hear. So now they will claim that it was never read to them. I will imagine in the near future that the police will have to move in and arrest those still blocking acces, and they will dismantle the camp. I only hope that this is done in full day light and with the necessary man power to do it in a proper manner, all within the laws allowed. The blockade shode be bulldozed or what ever else is needed to remove it and all the vehicles confiscated and either crushed or sold.

Do not get me wrong, I do support somethings the natives have done in the past, but in a more peaceful manner. But their blockcades have always made me have to take the side against them. They know the rules and laws and are probably more aware of them then most. So that does make it even more against them in these things. I think that they are all too willing to take up causes that really have no grounds in law. And they, no matter what they try to say differently, must obey our laws of the land, and not their own interpedation of them. Every person who has bought property should have also made sure they had all rights to that land etc. It would nt have been a big amount to do so. If they did not, well then they should ask the lawyers or those who did their land deal why this was not so. When it comes to Uranium mining, yes there can be many things you want to be leary of. But you right at this moment have things in your cupboards at home way more dangerous then Uranium. Most of you have some kind of drain cleaner some where, and also have bleach bottles near by. That will kill you faster then any uranium could. Hell those of you with glow in the dark watches are wearing uranium derivatives right there on your wrist. The list can go on and on.

I take the position that once the courts have ruled on the legality of the blockade, it should be lived up to and yes the police should use only the force necessary to remove it, and if the natives up they resistance, then the police should up their force, but in the end the blockade will have to come down. It may well over fill our jails for quite some time, but that is why we have jails in the first place.

[geoffrey]

Ok so if I want to be 'heard' by my corporations and governments, I cease investing in them ... money, votes, taxes, public 'loyalty' etc.

...Is that my option?

Yup, if you stop buying from a certain corporation, it will be small but eventually if enough individuals act out, it will be felt.

The better method, IMO, would be to invest more into it, buy more shares and perhaps even run for office, then you'll have much more of a voice.

[jennie]

Yup, if you stop buying from a certain corporation, it will be small but eventually if enough individuals act out, it will be felt.

The better method, IMO, would be to invest more into it, buy more shares and perhaps even run for office, then you'll have much more of a voice.

You missed my comment that I should cease investing "taxes" in my government if I want to effect change.

As someone without the means to become a major investor, I think I will focus on withdrawing economic support from my governments instead, to force THEM to deal with the corporations.

There are no rights in existence in Canada today that did not have to be fought for through protest and economic sanction.

"The law is the law" only until the law is changed.

Laws are changed through effective action. Economic disruption is most common and most effective.

Blockading the uranium drilling site is effective economic action.

Local landowners refusing to pay their property taxes in Frontenac County is effective economic action.

[jennie]

It really does not matter as to whether Iroquois or Mohawke are releated or just joined in protest. The simple fact is the protest is now illegal and has been so deemed by the courts, who are the so called keepers of the law of the land. It is not up to Native groups to be the keepers, and the said same also must follow the laws of the land or we will jail them, or what ever else it takes to get things back to what the courts ruled. Last Friday the natives drumming and chanted to drown out what they know was a court writ, that they did not want to hear. So now they will claim that it was never read to them. I will imagine in the near future that the police will have to move in and arrest those still blocking acces, and they will dismantle the camp. I only hope that this is done in full day light and with the necessary man power to do it in a proper manner, all within the laws allowed. The blockade shode be bulldozed or what ever else is needed to remove it and all the vehicles confiscated and either crushed or sold.

Do not get me wrong, I do support somethings the natives have done in the past, but in a more peaceful manner. But their blockcades have always made me have to take the side against them. They know the rules and laws and are probably more aware of them then most. So that does make it even more against them in these things. I think that they are all too willing to take up causes that really have no grounds in law. And they, no matter what they try to say differently, must obey our laws of the land, and not their own interpedation of them. Every person who has bought property should have also made sure they had all rights to that land etc. It would nt have been a big amount to do so. If they did not, well then they should ask the lawyers or those who did their land deal why this was not so. When it comes to Uranium mining, yes there can be many things you want to be leary of. But you right at this moment have things in your cupboards at home way more dangerous then Uranium. Most of you have some kind of drain cleaner some where, and also have bleach bottles near by. That will kill you faster then any uranium could. Hell those of you with glow in the dark watches are wearing uranium derivatives right there on your wrist. The list can go on and on.

I take the position that once the courts have ruled on the legality of the blockade, it should be lived up to and yes the police should use only the force necessary to remove it, and if the natives up they resistance, then the police should up their force, but in the end the blockade will have to come down. It may well over fill our jails for quite some time, but that is why we have jails in the first place.

Check out the thread on the Algonquin and landowners blockade in the provincial forum.

Landowners say "If FN are taken out, we will come in."

And they are refusing to pay their property taxes.

This is not just a native blockade. It is the whole community.

[M.Dancer]

You are absolutely right about that, because of course Canada will stall as long as it can so obviously has not resolved this particular land dispute yet.

However, can you tell me, since the Algonquins have never surrendered the land, or themselves, never signed a treaty, never received a thing from the government, always operated their band by contributions from members ...

How could Canada have evidence of ownership of the land, if no transfer of anything ever took place?

All the algonquin have to do is show that they have continously occupied the land for eons. If they can they get claim. Now of course there's nothing stopping them from claiming everything under the sun, and that why it goes to court.

Now considering their curreent claim is 8.9 million acres, they have a lotof work to do to show that it was all Algonquin land. I suspect they can't nor should a small band be able to win such a huge tract without compensating the legal owners of the land. After all, legal owners have a legal responsibility to protect the land.......

[M.Dancer]

Amazingly, or not, the link for the op ed has yet to appear.......

[jennie]

All the algonquin have to do is show that they have continously occupied the land for eons. If they can they get claim. Now of course there's nothing stopping them from claiming everything under the sun, and that why it goes to court.

Now considering their curreent claim is 8.9 million acres, they have a lotof work to do to show that it was all Algonquin land. I suspect they can't nor should a small band be able to win such a huge tract without compensating the legal owners of the land. After all, legal owners have a legal responsibility to protect the land.......

They have no interest in the settled areas, just in protecting the areas currently not settled.

This land is part of that larger claim by the larger group of Algonquins, not a small band.

[M.Dancer]

They have no interest in the settled areas, just in protecting the areas currently not settled.

This land is part of that larger claim by the larger group of Algonquins, not a small band.

Yes I know. The current land claim includes the cities of Ottawa, Pembrook, Bancroft and just about all of Algonquin Park. 59% of the claim is privately owned, 21% is Algonquin Park and 20% is Federal and Provincial Crown Land.

It is obvious from the initial claim size that they are using a negotiater who thinks if you should ask for 10 times as much as you are likely to get. They will not get anywhere near this claim.

[jennie]

Yes I know. The current land claim includes the cities of Ottawa, Pembrook, Bancroft and just about all of Algonquin Park. 59% of the claim is privately owned, 21% is Algonquin Park and 20% is Federal and Provincial Crown Land.

It is obvious from the initial claim size that they are using a negotiater who thinks if you should ask for 10 times as much as you are likely to get. They will not get anywhere near this claim.

And they have no desire to acquire the settled areas, I don't believe, but of course that may depend on the government's willingness to provide appropriate compensation for loss of use of those lands.

They have committed to maintaining Algonquin Park as a park.

[M.Dancer]

And they have no desire to acquire the settled areas, I don't believe, but of course that may depend on the government's willingness to provide appropriate compensation for loss of use of those lands.

They have committed to maintaining Algonquin Park as a park.

If they have no desire, why include it in the claim. If they won everything they have tabled, each and every member would get about 90 square miles of land.

I think the patience level of most Canadians for the theatrics displayed by some first nations is running out. If they are not prepared to abide by court judgements, and prefer to grand stand and to deprive Canadians of their livilihood then it's not unreasonable for Canadians to say to hell with them.

Perhaps what they want is title to the wealth buried below the ground...something they would never have needed, wanted or valued before the Europeans came.....but thankfully, as they are the self appointed protectors of the Environment, I'm sure the fat royalty cheques they will get will be printed on recycled paper.

[jennie]

If they have no desire, why include it in the claim. If they won everything they have tabled, each and every member would get about 90 square miles of land.

I already answered that: Compensation for loss of use of those lands.

I think the patience level of most Canadians for the theatrics displayed by some first nations is running out. If they are not prepared to abide by court judgements, and prefer to grand stand and to deprive Canadians of their livilihood then it's not unreasonable for Canadians to say to hell with them.

The patience of Canadians has a long way to go to match the patience of Indigenous Nations over the last 500 years. Get used to it. OR get active and get our governments to honour Canada's legal obligations and pay our legal liabilities.

Perhaps what they want is title to the wealth buried below the ground...something they would never have needed, wanted or valued before the Europeans came.....but thankfully, as they are the self appointed protectors of the Environment, I'm sure the fat royalty cheques they will get will be printed on recycled paper.

Well I am not going to suggest that they must necessarily behave "better" than we do in the greed department. It is irrelevant to us what they do with their own land. It is only our responsibility to ensure that our governments honour the treaties and laws and respect our need for good relations with Indigenous Nations.

Edited September 4, 2007 by jennie