Caucasians

[Bonam]

If you want to assert that the entirety of the reason for higher murder rates of white people than black people in South Africa is because white people tend to be rich farmers, then you should present data that shows that equally rich black farmers in South Africa (of which there should be some non-zero amount) are murdered at an equal rate. Otherwise, your statement is mere assumption with no basis.

[M.Dancer]

If you want to assert that the entirety of the reason for higher murder rates of white people than black people in South Africa is because white people tend to be rich farmers, then you should present data that shows that equally rich black farmers in South Africa (of which there should be some non-zero amount) are murdered at an equal rate. Otherwise, your statement is mere assumption with no basis.

Sure.....you make an assumption that there are rich black farmers ......find them.

20,000+ people are murdered every year in south africa. Guess how many are white?

[Bonam]

I won't even ask what pathetic supremist site you got that gem from....

Didn't get it from any site, it's just a natural extension of your silly (and wrong) argument that people that perform well economically deserve (or are at least naturally expected to be) murdered at much higher rates.

Edited July 26, 2007 by Bonam

[jefferiah]

I don't think Bonam has said anything that would indicate he is a supremacist.

I mean you can argue back and forth about whether or not racial tension against whites in the future is something to worry about, but the idea of it being possible or probable is not necessarily supremacy.

[Bonam]

I don't think Bonam has said anything that would indicate he is a supremacist.

Indeed, especially considering that a typical supremacist (presumably a white supremacist) would consider me to be right near the top of their list of subhumans.

[M.Dancer]

I don't think Bonam has said anything that would indicate he is a supremacist.

After all, in the early 30s, most Jews in Germany were quite well off.

No I guess not. But that is a gross misuse of a factoid.

[M.Dancer]

I don't think Bonam has said anything that would indicate he is a supremacist.

I mean you can argue back and forth about whether or not racial tension against whites in the future is something to worry about, but the idea of it being possible or probable is not necessarily supremacy.

There are two schools in my neighbourhood where an inordinate amount of children have bodygaurds.

Do you think the parents have gaurds for them because of:

1)Their Race?

2)Their Wealth?

[Bonam]

No I guess not. But that is a gross misuse of a factoid.

It was nothing more than an example of how your argument could be extended to complete absurdity. I obviously don't think that your argument justifies anything, as should be abundantly clear from my posts.

Edited July 26, 2007 by Bonam

[Bonam]

There are two schools in my neighbourhood where an inordinate amount of children have bodygaurds.

This is in Canada? I've never seen kids with bodyguards in any schools where I've lived in Canada. Was there an actual crime problem at the schools in question against rich kids? If so, that's pretty messed up. Or is it just a case of very rich and paranoid parents?

[M.Dancer]

as should be abundantly clear from my posts.

Perhaps if you were a better writer then.....

[guyser]

There are two schools in my neighbourhood where an inordinate amount of children have bodygaurds.

Do you think the parents have gaurds for them because of:

1)Their Race?

2)Their Wealth?

Probably #2.

But I went to school with a kid who had a bodyguard for both reasons you mentioned. Guyanese he was , and always had money, wads of it at school, which made him popular.

[M.Dancer]

There are two schools in my neighbourhood where an inordinate amount of children have bodygaurds.

This is in Canada? I've never seen kids with bodyguards in any schools where I've lived in Canada. Was there an actual crime problem at the schools in question against rich kids? If so, that's pretty messed up. Or is it just a case of very rich and paranoid parents?

Toronto. In this case the students are the children of very, very wealthy Chinese parents and kidnappings are not unknown.

The point is, they are not targets because of their race, but their wealth. The lessor mortals of Asian extraction aren't targeted for the same reasons.

[Bonam]

Perhaps if you were a better writer then.....

If you can't tell from post #548 that I disagree with your argument and don't feel that it can be used as an adequate explanation of the situation in South Africa or a justification of anything else, then I'd say that the problem is not with my writing.

[Bonam]

Well I can't comment much about the situation with the bodyguards in schools. Never ran into anything like that before and don't really know what to think, except that something is really really wrong when kids in schools need bodyguards.

What exactly are these bodyguards? Adults that follow the one specific kid around all day long? Are they armed? Trained for fighting? I can hardly imagine what kind of isolation these kids must face from their classmates as a result.

Edited July 26, 2007 by Bonam

[M.Dancer]

Well I can't comment much about the situation with the bodyguards in schools. Never ran into anything like that before and don't really know what to think, except that something is really really wrong when kids in schools need bodyguards.

What exactly are these bodyguards? Adults that follow the one specific kid around all day long? Are they armed? Trained for fighting? I can hardly imagine what kind of isolation these kids must face from their classmates as a result.

All that is irrelevant isn't it? Whether they are trained for fighting or for first aid. Whether the minder follows at a dicreat distance or waits parked outside in the limo.....What is relevant is why and the circumstances that make them wanted by their employers.

And like I said, it isn't race. Matter of fact, most robberies aren't.

Except for South Africa where with over 20,000 murders a year, 90 or so very rich farmers robbed and murdered a year must be......

[Bonam]

All that is irrelevant isn't it?

I suppose so, just got sidetracked by the mention of the bodyguards in schools, which is something I hadn't run across or was aware of in Canada previously.

Anyway, you still haven't shown data that shows that black farmers are murdered at an equal rate as white farmers in South Africa, which would be necessary to show that the increased chance of murder is a result only of their occupation and financial status and not of racial tension. And yes, black farmers do exist there.

Edited July 26, 2007 by Bonam

[M.Dancer]

All that is irrelevant isn't it?

I suppose so, just got sidetracked by the mention of the bodyguards in schools, which is something I hadn't run across or was aware of in Canada previously.

Anyway, you still haven't shown data that shows that black farmers are murdered at an equal rate as white farmers in South Africa, which would be necessary to show that the increased chance of murder is a result only of their occupation and financial status and not of racial tension. And yes, black farmers do exist there.

Then find out how many. In order to be accurate you need to know. Given that there are 20,000 murders per year, you can bet your bottom dollar that rich blacks are targetted out of proportion to poor blacks.

[ScottSA]

Man, you could justify the freaking Holocaust with this type of reasoning. After all, in the early 30s, most Jews in Germany were quite well off.

I won't even ask what pathetic supremist site you got that gem from....

Well, I got it from Ian Kershaw, among others. If you want to claim he's a racist, have at it. It's just a fact, Momo...something you probably have at least a passing acquaintance with in your travels.

[M.Dancer]

Well, I got it from Ian Kershaw, among others. If you want to claim he's a racist, have at it. It's just a fact, Momo...something you probably have at least a passing acquaintance with in your travels.

Well then I sure you will be willing to misquote him then.,,,,

Edited July 26, 2007 by M.Dancer

[ScottSA]

I find this whole evasive maneuvre on Momo's part to be ludicrous. Tell me Momo: do you think violence ever occurs because of race? Please don't quibble like some of your lesser intellect buddies and argue that violence isn't "solely" about race...do you ever think that race factors into violence? Would you say, for instance, that "Asian street gangs" are all Asian by co-incidence?

[M.Dancer]

I find this whole evasive maneuvre on Momo's part to be ludicrous. Tell me Momo: do you think violence ever occurs because of race? Please don't quibble like some of your lesser intellect buddies and argue that violence isn't "solely" about race...do you ever think that race factors into violence? Would you say, for instance, that "Asian street gangs" are all Asian by co-incidence?

What a ludicrous argument. Wait a second....is there ann argument there?

Tell me Momo: do you think violence ever occurs because of race?

Yes.

Do you think all violence between races is "racial" Pelopensian wars excepted.....

Would you say, for instance, that "Asian street gangs" are all Asian by co-incidence?

No and that is relevant how? If all of your neighbours were chinese, would your friends be chinese? My neighbourhood was multicultural, and guess what? My playmates were french, english, italian and black.....

You have to remember, most people aren't as terrified as you.

[M.Dancer]

Strange, though, I was sure Scott said this thread wasn't about culture.....perhaps he thinks it's some atavistic or genetic urge that propels immigrant Asians to flock together....

[jefferiah]

The thing with many of these crimes is the brutality which goes quite beyond the level necessary to procure some loot from a rich feller. If it's only cash you are after.......

Edited July 26, 2007 by jefferiah

[ScottSA]

Tell me Momo: do you think violence ever occurs because of race?

Yes.

Excellent. Then why are we arguing?

[Rue]

I don't think Bonam has said anything that would indicate he is a supremacist.

No just ignorant of Jewish history and very ignorant of the corelation between poverty and race conflict when it does exist.

I also understand what Dancer is saying and I support it. I won't repeat it as he is doing just fine. I ask myself, if someone wants to go look for people that hate-they will find it and they will find it comes in all colours if they look completely as opposed to selectively and no sometimes what some of you feel is caused by hatred against whites is far more complicated then such simplistic references. Skin colour is often used by people who don't want to take the time to dig further and find out the underlying causes of a conflict.

In the case of Zimbabwe the ravings of the mad man Robert Mugabe are directed at whites but they are equally as directed at blacks. His insanity does not discriminate and I urge anyone who thinks otherwise to speak to a black from Zimbabwe who has managed to get out. It doesn't excuse his insanity againstw hites by any means but the point is to try use it to fan this caucasian anxiety is bull shit. I find it patronizes caucasians myself but then what would I know according to Leafless I am not really caucasian given my infidel Jew blood.

That said, in South Africa Bonham you really think you can dismiss what goes on there as simply a race problem against whites? What a simplistic and may I say misleading way to analyze the situation.

What Dancer was trying to explain to you is that the racism is fueled not simply because caucasians are caucasian but because they are perceived as having things gained by injustice. There is a tie in to the old apartheid. Racism of course generates reverse racism. Neither is right but to simplify it just as a race issue is dumb. If the whites in South Africa were dirt poor you really think anyone would be attacking them?

What we call racism is often simply a surface feature of deeper social problems with poverty and we all know that.

Here is my point you remember New Orleans. We all saw race in the US and what happens when you are dirt poor and black. You are leftt to rot. If that was Beverly Hills you think they would have been left to rot like that whether they were white or black? Its the privilege and power that comes from money that fuels conflict and race is at times used as the symbol to express it. Here is the other point. Yes there were poor white people left stranded as well. They suffered equally. That is the point Dancer was making-poverty is the real issue and it fuels racism and other symptoms.

Yes I do not doubt the poor whites in the New Orleans dome may have been subject to racism from blacks but was that fueled because the blacks are simply racist or because of poverty that causes poor people to turn on one another-do you think perhaps the poor blacks who turned on the poor whites hated them because they were white or because these poor whites were seen as being the same people of the white majority society that had forsaken them? Do you think those poor blacks would have not turned on a fellow black who used their money to get special treatment? Of course they would. What I am saying is yes on one level it may manifest as racism, but you have to dig deeper-sometimes the real cause is poverty.

That is the problem with this line of posts. Its become a lazy way to analyze social conflict. It enables some of you to hide behind the word caucasian and stop there, rather then look further to see what is generating it, and not simply stop at how you see conflict being expressed.

If a black mugs me, yes I might become nervous with all blacks. Is that racism or is that reactional trauma and fueled not because I hate blacks but because blacks no remind me of someone who scared me? That is a different form of negative generalization then me simply hating blacks when I have never met any. I myself tend to deal with people who have trauma differently then people who don't. Some trauma is understandable and needs therapy, other alleged trauma is not trauma simply resentment or jealousy. One has to look at many layers of the conflict or behaviour to understand it.

In regards to South Africa why would anyone be selective and simply look at the current conflict without also discussing its roots, underlying causes, and origins? How do you look at the current plight of whites (inexcusable) without also understanding its origins (apartheid)? Both are two sides of the same behaviour. These two forms of behaviour are inter-connected they are not seperate.

As for Scott he is a classic example of someone who projects. He starts off with the assumption he will see Mary in his coffee stain and that is what he sees.

This is precisely what fuels this line of caucasian anxiety arguements. Its simply people projecting what they want to see in situations. It is necessarily subjective not objective and therefore can not be rational or logical.

It is precisely because humans like to project and be subjective to simplify the world and make it less frightening that also breeds intolerance because the labels we use to try understand things, also can be used to avoid having to understand things. I think in this case the labels are being used not to try understand but to avoid having to understand and that is precisely Dancer's point.

Edited July 26, 2007 by Rue