Caucasians

[M.Dancer]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6975009/

Why do you keep posting links that are irrelevant to the argument, what ever your argument might happen to be?

[steve789]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6975009/

Why do you keep posting links that are irrelevant to the argument, what ever your argument might happen to be?

Typical political dogma response by those in denial of genetic differences in humans based upon emotional reasons. Scientists were able to identify that Egyptian baby mummy's mom as a Caucasian from Europe and not a Caucasian mummy's mom from Iran or Arabia based upon the geographic regions of human cluster subpopulations that often correspond to individual populations.

[M.Dancer]

There are genetic differences based on emotional reasons?

diluting the babble from the Gook.........

Scientists were able to identify that Egyptian baby mummy's mom as a Caucasian from Europe and not a Caucasian mummy's mom from Iran or Arabia based upon the geographic regions of human cluster subpopulations that often correspond to individual populations.

See if you can find a credible source for this.

I expect you won't.

[FascistLibertarian]

Typical political dogma response by those in denial of genetic differences in humans based upon emotional reasons. Scientists were able to identify that Egyptian baby mummy's mom as a Caucasian from Europe and not a Caucasian mummy's mom from Iran or Arabia based upon the geographic regions of human cluster subpopulations that often correspond to individual populations.

But would you take blood or an organ from a person of your race but not of another race?

Seriosely, I want to know?

But then you probably dont think you could be genetically closer to a black person than a white one, that somehow offends you.

[steve789]

There are genetic differences based on emotional reasons?

diluting the babble from the Gook.........

Scientists were able to identify that Egyptian baby mummy's mom as a Caucasian from Europe and not a Caucasian mummy's mom from Iran or Arabia based upon the geographic regions of human cluster subpopulations that often correspond to individual populations.

See if you can find a credible source for this.

I expect you won't.

Let me rephrase it:

Dribble typical of the political dogma by individuals who let their emotional reasons put them in denial of genetic differences in humans.

Now that's funny given even that article you provided backs this up. Its a fact that researchers found that differences in DNA can provide enough information to identify the geographic ancestry of individuals. By the way ancient Egypt was the home of many different people from Africa, Europe, Middle East, Asia, Central Asia and Caucasian populations exist in all, but it was from a specific European region that these researchers pin pointed the origins of the Egyptian mummy's mom, not from the Middle East or Africa or Central Asia.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/03/16/m...=20070316084500

[M.Dancer]

Now that's funny given even that article you provided backs this up. Its a fact that researchers found that differences in DNA can provide enough information to identify the geographic ancestry of individuals. By the way ancient Egypt was the home of many different people from Africa, Europe, Middle East, Asia, Central Asia and Caucasian populations exist in all, but it was from a specific European region that these researchers pin pointed the origins of the Egyptian mummy's mom, not from the Middle East or Africa or Central Asia.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/03/16/m...=20070316084500

All that is apropos to nothing. Genetic evidence can tell someone who my mother was......and where my ancestors came from....but that doesn't preclude the fact that the differences genetically between humans is minute.

A small snippet of the mummy's wrapping tested for carbon dating suggested the child had lived between 30 B.C. and 130 A.D., in Egypt's Roman period around the time of Mark Antony and Cleopatra.

In other words the mummy, like Cleopatra, are Greek.

[steve789]

Typical political dogma response by those in denial of genetic differences in humans based upon emotional reasons. Scientists were able to identify that Egyptian baby mummy's mom as a Caucasian from Europe and not a Caucasian mummy's mom from Iran or Arabia based upon the geographic regions of human cluster subpopulations that often correspond to individual populations.

But would you take blood or an organ from a person of your race but not of another race?

Seriosely, I want to know?

But then you probably dont think you could be genetically closer to a black person than a white one, that somehow offends you.

You proved exactly what I was talking about regarding the typical political dogma by individuals who let their emotional reasons take over when genetic differences in humans is brought up. First and for most, I never stated in any of my messages that I'm offended of other races, nor for either myself to donate blood or be a recipient of blood from a black, yellow, red, white, or whatever person, nor did I ever claim that I don't believe in multi-racial relations nor that people who are of multi-ethnic origins are inferior to others. Second of all trying to deny that there are genetical differences between people is blind to reality. Thirdly I stated time and again that even between the same groups of people, be they black white green yellow purple European African Asian etc., differences exist.

[Bonam]

There seems to be a really deeply ingrained thought pattern among some posters here that acknowledging that races exist and holding racist beliefs are somehow one and the same. Races are plain for everyone to see, and just about anyone can tell between them, but that doesn't mean that they are racists.

[steve789]

Now that's funny given even that article you provided backs this up. Its a fact that researchers found that differences in DNA can provide enough information to identify the geographic ancestry of individuals. By the way ancient Egypt was the home of many different people from Africa, Europe, Middle East, Asia, Central Asia and Caucasian populations exist in all, but it was from a specific European region that these researchers pin pointed the origins of the Egyptian mummy's mom, not from the Middle East or Africa or Central Asia.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/03/16/m...=20070316084500

All that is apropos to nothing. Genetic evidence can tell someone who my mother was......and where my ancestors came from....but that doesn't preclude the fact that the differences genetically between humans is minute.

A small snippet of the mummy's wrapping tested for carbon dating suggested the child had lived between 30 B.C. and 130 A.D., in Egypt's Roman period around the time of Mark Antony and Cleopatra.

In other words the mummy, like Cleopatra, are Greek.

It apropos to everything, as stated before Egypt was the home of many multicultural and multiethnic people, especially during the Greco-Roman times when Alexandria became the cultural central place of the world. So the likelihood of that mummy's mom being of any ethnicity, which included Caucasian origins from other regions of the world, such as Northern Africa, Central Asia, Middle East etc. was just a high but the results pinpointed her genetic connection to Europe, not Africa, Central Asia the Middle East or where ever.

[M.Dancer]

Now that's funny given even that article you provided backs this up. Its a fact that researchers found that differences in DNA can provide enough information to identify the geographic ancestry of individuals. By the way ancient Egypt was the home of many different people from Africa, Europe, Middle East, Asia, Central Asia and Caucasian populations exist in all, but it was from a specific European region that these researchers pin pointed the origins of the Egyptian mummy's mom, not from the Middle East or Africa or Central Asia.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/03/16/m...=20070316084500

All that is apropos to nothing. Genetic evidence can tell someone who my mother was......and where my ancestors came from....but that doesn't preclude the fact that the differences genetically between humans is minute.

A small snippet of the mummy's wrapping tested for carbon dating suggested the child had lived between 30 B.C. and 130 A.D., in Egypt's Roman period around the time of Mark Antony and Cleopatra.

In other words the mummy, like Cleopatra, are Greek.

It apropos to everything, as stated before Egypt was the home of many multicultural and multiethnic people, especially during the Greco-Roman times when Alexandria became the cultural central place of the world. So the likelihood of that mummy's mom being of any ethnicity, which included Caucasian origins from other regions of the world, such as Northern Africa, Central Asia, Middle East etc. was just a high but the results pinpointed her genetic connection to Europe, not Africa, Central Asia the Middle East or where ever.

Apropos to nothing. Egypt was ruled by greeks from the time of Alexandria. The mummy was probably a 3rd generation greek immigrant. The greeks from the time of ptolemy the first went whole hog into egyptian culture. It is very unlikely that other culture that passed through egypt but did not adopt Egyptian culture would be mummified. Notwithstanding, the genetic differences between African Egyptians and Greeks is minimal. Enough to place them geographically, but not much more. And certainly not enough to place values on them, like Scooter would have us.

[steve789]

Now that's funny given even that article you provided backs this up. Its a fact that researchers found that differences in DNA can provide enough information to identify the geographic ancestry of individuals. By the way ancient Egypt was the home of many different people from Africa, Europe, Middle East, Asia, Central Asia and Caucasian populations exist in all, but it was from a specific European region that these researchers pin pointed the origins of the Egyptian mummy's mom, not from the Middle East or Africa or Central Asia.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/03/16/m...=20070316084500

All that is apropos to nothing. Genetic evidence can tell someone who my mother was......and where my ancestors came from....but that doesn't preclude the fact that the differences genetically between humans is minute.

A small snippet of the mummy's wrapping tested for carbon dating suggested the child had lived between 30 B.C. and 130 A.D., in Egypt's Roman period around the time of Mark Antony and Cleopatra.

In other words the mummy, like Cleopatra, are Greek.

It apropos to everything, as stated before Egypt was the home of many multicultural and multiethnic people, especially during the Greco-Roman times when Alexandria became the cultural central place of the world. So the likelihood of that mummy's mom being of any ethnicity, which included Caucasian origins from other regions of the world, such as Northern Africa, Central Asia, Middle East etc. was just a high but the results pinpointed her genetic connection to Europe, not Africa, Central Asia the Middle East or where ever.

Apropos to nothing. Egypt was ruled by greeks from the time of Alexandria. The mummy was probably a 3rd generation greek immigrant. The greeks from the time of ptolemy the first went whole hog into egyptian culture. It is very unlikely that other culture that passed through egypt but did not adopt Egyptian culture would be mummified. Notwithstanding, the genetic differences between African Egyptians and Greeks is minimal. Enough to place them geographically, but not much more. And certainly not enough to place values on them, like Scooter would have us.

Actually not true. The Greeks are the ones who had little to do with Egyptian culture. They Hellenized most everything about Egypt and made native Egyptians into second hand citizens.

"Even though they adopted Egyptian customs to a certain degree, the Ptolemaic kings and queens were Greek. They spoke Greek and they thought that Greek culture and peoples were better than Egyptian culture and peoples. Greek became the state language, and cities were renamed. In fact, the word "Egypt" is a Greek word (the Egyptian word is "Kmt" or Kemet). On the whole, native Egyptians occupied the lowest social positions. The Ptolemies, though, as well as their Greek administrators, were highly tolerant and even interested in foreign religions. The most enduring cultural product they produced was a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures; the Ptolemies were interested in the Hebrew religion because of the large number of Jews living in Egypt at the time. Because of this translation, the Hebrew scriptures became one of the most important documents in the history of Western culture; had they ignored the book, it would probably have faded into the dust of history within a few hundred years." Washington State University

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/EGYPT/PTOLEMY.HTM

"The achievements of the Greeks in the ancient world, by no means few, may have reached their peak in the city of Alexandria. No less a ruler than its namesake, Alexander III of Macedonia (Alexander the Great), Alexandria dominated the eastern Mediterranean world culturally, politically, and economically for more than nine hundred years, the latter three hundred of which it competed with even the eastern capital of the Byzantine Empire, the famous Constantinople. .... The arrival of the Greeks brought an unprecedented amount of change in Egypt as they overlaid the existing society with that of their own. At first glance, the Græco-Macedonian period seems to lack the romance and awe of the Pharaohs who came before, but it was during this time, between Alexander's conquest and the Arab takeover of Alexandria in AD 642 that Egypt made some of its most significant contributions to the classical world, as well as absorbing its influences." Tour of Egypt

http://www.touregypt.net/alexhis1.htm

The genetic difference differences between African Egyptian and Greeks are many and far apart. This is why DNA revealed this mummy's mom was not a native Egyptian but of Greek European origins. Most credible geneticists agree.

Confirmed also by Professor R. Villems:

"Namely, the latter(Crete) lacks mtDNA lineages that are, though not abundant, but certainly omnipresent in Egypt, the Levant (Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestinians). By and large, most of these variants of mtDNA are also absent or very rare in Anatolia and in the mainland Greece. On the contrary, Cretans and Cypriots share their basic maternal ancestry as far as the main European mtDNA haplogroup H is concerned; it is the dominant variety also in both islands. We can also refute any strong Egyptian influence to the mtDNA pool of Cretans, Greece: it should have brought a considerable variety of sub-Saharan lineages (about 20% in Egypt), as well as manifest in a much lower frequency of haplogroup H. - Third Yearly Meeting of the Co-ordinators of the Centers of Excellence in Cyprus, May 19-21 2003

Three respected geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch, argued that the scientific limitations of Arnaiz-Villena's methodology.[13] stated that "Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.", making specific allusion to the findings on Greeks (among others) as "anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups.

Plus that chart you provided by Luca Cavalli-Sforza regarding the Iranians closeness to Europeans puts Greeks even further away from North African populations. Greeks share a genetic marker that is most commonly found in populations within the Balkan region and rarely outside it.

Greek traditions was to cremate the dead, a tradition most Greeks of Egypt followed, even the Ptolemies maintained the standard Greek practice that was also in line with Roman ritual, rather than adopting Egyptian practices:

'Although cremation violated Egyptian beliefs, some of the Greeks who lived in Egypt cremated the corpses of their dead. Funerary urns, or what were known as "hydria," were used to hold the ashes of the deceased. Hydrias were distinguished by their colors; they were painted in crimson, red and black; the bodies and necks of the urns were usually decorated with geometrical or floral patterns; sometimes with animals, birds or legendary themes. The neck of the urn was sometimes decorated with an artificial flower garland and gilded leaves.

Inscriptions on the hydria gave information about the deceased person, for instance his name and his occupation. The urns were sealed with white gypsum that bore the seal of the factory that produced it. The hydrias are dated from the beginning of the Ptolemaic period and up to the end of the first century BC.

http://www.eternalegypt.org/EternalEgyptWe...d=1&story_id=51

Also it is a fact that many other cultures pass through Egypt and left their marks long before the Greeks arrived. And Egypts multiculture and multiethnic populations was at its highest under Greco-Roman rule because as it was stated before that was the time period Egypt became the center of the world culture and education. By the time the Ptolemies came to power, Egypt saw the Hyskos, Assyrians, Lybians, Nubians, Persians, Ethiopians and many others in its mix.

http://www.touregypt.net/kings.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Dynastic_Period_of_Egypt

[M.Dancer]

Actually not true. The Greeks are the ones who had little to do with Egyptian culture. They Hellenized most everything about Egypt and made native Egyptians into second hand citizens.

"Even though they adopted Egyptian customs to a certain degree,

[M.Dancer]

To gain recognition by the native Egyptian populace, they named themselves as the successors to the Pharaohs. The later Ptolemies took on Egyptian traditions by marrying their siblings, had themselves portrayed on public monuments in Egyptian style and dress, and participated in Egyptian religious life. Hellenistic culture thrived in Egypt until the Muslim conquest. The Ptolemies had to fight native rebellions and were involved in foreign and civil wars that led to the decline of the kingdom and its annexation by Rome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_Egypt

Mummification is an Egyptian religious ritual.

[M.Dancer]

Plus that chart you provided by Luca Cavalli-Sforza regarding the Iranians closeness to Europeans puts Greeks even further away from North African populations. Greeks share a genetic marker that is most commonly found in populations within the Balkan region and rarely outside it.

Thats' becasue the Greek travelled aroung the Med.....and the Egyptians not so much. That why you will find Greek foot prints in the mid east but not african in rome....

[steve789]

Actually not true. The Greeks are the ones who had little to do with Egyptian culture. They Hellenized most everything about Egypt and made native Egyptians into second hand citizens.

"Even though they adopted Egyptian customs to a certain degree,

Funny how you leave out the parts that contradict your arguments:

"Even though they adopted Egyptian customs to a certain degree, the Ptolemaic kings and queens were Greek. They spoke Greek and they thought that Greek culture and peoples were better than Egyptian culture and peoples. Greek became the state language, and cities were renamed."

"The arrival of the Greeks brought an unprecedented amount of change in Egypt as they overlaid the existing society with that of their own. At first glance, the Græco-Macedonian period seems to lack the romance and awe of the Pharaohs who came before"

[steve789]

To gain recognition by the native Egyptian populace, they named themselves as the successors to the Pharaohs. The later Ptolemies took on Egyptian traditions by marrying their siblings, had themselves portrayed on public monuments in Egyptian style and dress, and participated in Egyptian religious life. Hellenistic culture thrived in Egypt until the Muslim conquest. The Ptolemies had to fight native rebellions and were involved in foreign and civil wars that led to the decline of the kingdom and its annexation by Rome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_Egypt

Mummification is an Egyptian religious ritual.

That not all Greeks in Egypt followed. Again I see you leave out parts that contradict you.

"Although cremation violated Egyptian beliefs, some of the Greeks who lived in Egypt cremated the corpses of their dead. Funerary urns, or what were known as "hydria," were used to hold the ashes of the deceased. "

[steve789]

Plus that chart you provided by Luca Cavalli-Sforza regarding the Iranians closeness to Europeans puts Greeks even further away from North African populations. Greeks share a genetic marker that is most commonly found in populations within the Balkan region and rarely outside it.

Thats' becasue the Greek travelled aroung the Med.....and the Egyptians not so much. That why you will find Greek foot prints in the mid east but not african in rome....

So I guess that is your explanation for the Iranians being clustered with the Europeans too, their traveling roots? You will find Roman ones in the mid east. Hate to break it you but the Greeks were not the only people to travel the world. And that genetic marker as it was stated to you is not found outside the Balkan region, its a marker shared by Albanians, Western Anatolians, Serbs, Greeks etc.

"According to Cruciani et al. [11] most Greeks and other Balkan people belong to a specific cluster a within haplogroup E-M78 that is found in lower frequencies outside the Balkans and marks migrations from the Balkan areas not into it. E-M123 and its daughter haplogroup E-M34 originated in the Anatolia in prehistoric times. As for haplogroup J, most Greeks belong to J-M172 and its subclades which is associated with Neolithic population movements. The results show the majority of Greeks belong to a specific cluster of gene pool that is found within the Balkans.

The present study is a survey of polymorphism in 5 Greek population groups using 2 minisatellite and 10 tetranucleotide microsatellite loci. The general pattern of the allele frequency distribution (Table 2) appears to be similar to what has been reported for other European populations (Buscemi et al. 1994; Rose et al. 1996; Perez-Lezaun et al. 1997). The number of alleles detected, 121, provides a higher level of genetic information compared with classical markers." -Genetic studies in Greek population samples using 12 highly polymorphic DNA loci: Human Biology, Wayne State University Press Feb 1999

Edited August 2, 2007 by steve789

[M.Dancer]

That not all Greeks in Egypt followed. Again I see you leave out parts that contradict you.

"Although cremation violated Egyptian beliefs, some of the Greeks who lived in Egypt cremated the corpses of their dead. Funerary urns, or what were known as "hydria," were used to hold the ashes of the deceased. "

You would like a definition of "some"?

[steve789]

That not all Greeks in Egypt followed. Again I see you leave out parts that contradict you.

"Although cremation violated Egyptian beliefs, some of the Greeks who lived in Egypt cremated the corpses of their dead. Funerary urns, or what were known as "hydria," were used to hold the ashes of the deceased. "

You would like a definition of "some"?

Would you like a definition of "not all"? How about a list of Greeks who wre cremated..its much larger then the ones who were mummified, starting with the Ptolemies.

Edited August 3, 2007 by steve789

[FascistLibertarian]

. Second of all trying to deny that there are genetical differences between people is blind to reality.

Clearly

what does race matter in this though?

Thirdly I stated time and again that even between the same groups of people, be they black white green yellow purple European African Asian etc., differences exist.

Clearly

The problem is people who think that race is at all tied to your genetic makeup. People who dont understand the difference between phenotype of genotype.

[ScottSA]

The problem is people who think that race is at all tied to your genetic makeup. People who dont understand the difference between phenotype of genotype.

I doubt you even get the hilarious irony of this post...I suppose you think a Zulu is merely a phenotypically sunburnt Scotsman.

I thought that maybe you were sweal at one point, since you share the same annoying habit of line item rebuttal, but sweal was intelligent.

[FascistLibertarian]

I suppose you think a Zulu will always be genotypically closer to a Zulu than a Scotsman.

Shouldnt you be out judging people based on their skin colour?

[ScottSA]

I suppose you think a Zulu will always be genotypically closer to a Zulu than a Scotsman.

Why, yes I do. Don't you?

[FascistLibertarian]

No, I am aware that you can be closer genetically to a member of a different race than a member of the same race.

[ScottSA]

No, I am aware that you can be closer genetically to a member of a different race than a member of the same race.

I don't believe that a Zulu and a Scotsman have much likelyhood of being genetically closer to each other than to members of the same race. In any event I find this entire argument to be absolutely ludicrous...the extent to which some people are willing to deny the ever so blatantly obvious fact that there are differences between races is almost scary.