Jack Layton Says Surrender.....

[Peter F]

I think it is you who doe's not have a goddamed clue about Canada's role in Afghanistan.

nice. he's only a soldier over there NOW.

Could you be anymore pompous?

such ignorance.

Yes, he is a soldier over there right now. and right now, as a soldier over there putting his life on the line to achieve to goals of the canadian government - he still doesnt know why he's there. He thinks he's there to defeat evil Islam the Taliban and Al Queda. That may very well be his own personal ambition but thats not why the Canadian government sent him there...and he knows that very well.

[M.Dancer]

This fellow is bang on in his analysis of the shamefulless of Tal*b*n Jack

That's as far as I read. If that's how you preface something, I don't need to read any further to know that it's a load of crap.

I wring my hands in depair that I have offended you and the glorious leader of the capitulation and shame party.......

[M.Dancer]

I think it is you who doe's not have a goddamed clue about Canada's role in Afghanistan.

nice. he's only a soldier over there NOW.

Could you be anymore pompous?

such ignorance.

Yes, he is a soldier over there right now. and right now, as a soldier over there putting his life on the line to achieve to goals of the canadian government - he still doesnt know why he's there. He thinks he's there to defeat evil Islam the Taliban and Al Queda. That may very well be his own personal ambition but thats not why the Canadian government sent him there...and he knows that very well.

I might suggest you refrain from drinking and posting at the same time

[Peter F]

I think it is you who doe's not have a goddamed clue about Canada's role in Afghanistan.

nice. he's only a soldier over there NOW.

Could you be anymore pompous?

such ignorance.

Yes, he is a soldier over there right now. and right now, as a soldier over there putting his life on the line to achieve to goals of the canadian government - he still doesnt know why he's there. He thinks he's there to defeat evil Islam the Taliban and Al Queda. That may very well be his own personal ambition but thats not why the Canadian government sent him there...and he knows that very well.

I might suggest you refrain from drinking and posting at the same time

I suggest you stop kissing ass.

[AndrewL]

Well at least you'll be safe hiding behind your computer in your home. Your not here and have no idea what's going on.

I know that it won't work.

A disgrace, how about jack raising the retreat flag on the bodies of fallen Canadians. Means a little more to us, especially if you know them. Yes, he cares so deeply for the people here that he will abandon them to their fate. It is really easy for you, your NOT here to look them in the eye...

Their fate is tragic. NATO/America can't and will not change that. Only they can. At best the western presence is just in the way, at worst the western presence is just eroding my security at home. Regardless, i dont trust western or afghan motives and i personally want nothing to do with any of it.

Again, the left folks (agreed not all) like to get together and protest, and talk about how morally superior they are. How they believe in human right, rule of law, etc... but they have no interest in doing the really hard (sometimes nasty) work need to be done to get us there.

You are making the false assumption that an armed NATO/American force can 'get us there'. I don't accept that. And i certainly do not support it. It is just another sad chapter in western colonialism and puppeteering.

Genocide, The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group did NOT happen to the Indians tribes of Canada, they are still here today.

It was systematic. And it was very effective. It was genocide in no uncertain terms. The record is very clear on that. Any group of occupiers that seeks to forcibly convert, steal, and exterminate an entire culture and way of life is engaged in genocide. You can sugar coat it all you want, but it remains one of the most grievous crimes in recorded history.

As for you thoughts of me, I could care less, I owe you nothing. As for your respect of the CF, I doubt very much it was every really there...

Yeah, you are probably right on there. Im rather indifferent to it. I dont identify myself with any sort of nationalism or buy into the myth of benevolence that surrounds the 'modern western military'.

Andrew

[White Doors]

I think it is you who doe's not have a goddamed clue about Canada's role in Afghanistan.

nice. he's only a soldier over there NOW.

Could you be anymore pompous?

such ignorance.

Yes, he is a soldier over there right now. and right now, as a soldier over there putting his life on the line to achieve to goals of the canadian government - he still doesnt know why he's there. He thinks he's there to defeat evil Islam the Taliban and Al Queda. That may very well be his own personal ambition but thats not why the Canadian government sent him there...and he knows that very well.

Youre so full of shit your stink is coming through my monitor.

We are there to support the karzai giovernment to become self sufficient. One of the ways of doing that is defending the people rebuilding the country from being murdered by these animals.

Unfortunately for your delicate sensibilities, this can sometimes mean blowing the crap out of the enemy, and make no mistake, the enemy of the CF's and the karzai government is the taliban.

I guess you just want them to surrender to them and hope the taliban build roads and bridges?

Why do you insist on being willfully ignorant?

[AndrewL]

By definition, you posting this gives you zero credibility.

It's a popular leftist talking point, but surprise - it isn't true!

so are you prepared to back this up? You seem to be suggesting that both the ritish and Russian empire enjoyed success in Afghanistan, with much larger armies to boot.

You say the fact that they lost is not true? WTF are you talking about?

Andrew

[White Doors]

Such utter bullshit!

But right away we are in highly debatable territory. It is true that the cramped quarters of the missions, with their poor ventilation and bad sanitation, encouraged the spread of disease. But it is demonstrably untrue that, like the Nazis, the missionaries were unconcerned with the welfare of their native converts. No matter how difficult the conditions under which the Indians labored—obligatory work, often inadequate food and medical care, corporal punishment—their experience bore no comparison with the fate of the Jews in the ghettos. The missionaries had a poor understanding of the causes of the diseases that afflicted their charges, and medically there was little they could do for them. By contrast, the Nazis knew exactly what was happening in the ghettos, and quite deliberately deprived the inmates of both food and medicine; unlike in Stannard’s "furnaces of death," the deaths that occurred there were meant to occur.

The larger picture also does not conform to Stannard’s idea of disease as an expression of "genocidal war." True, the forced relocations of Indian tribes were often accompanied by great hardship and harsh treatment; the removal of the Cherokee from their homelands to territories west of the Mississippi in 1838 took the lives of thousands and has entered history as the Trail of Tears. But the largest loss of life occurred well before this time, and sometimes after only minimal contact with European traders. True, too, some colonists later welcomed the high mortality among Indians, seeing it as a sign of divine providence; that, however, does not alter the basic fact that Europeans did not come to the New World in order to infect the natives with deadly diseases.

in reponse to Andrews ridiculous statements.

These assertions were also trotted out by the far left during vietnam.

At least the left is consistent in their wrong mindedness.

[White Doors]

By definition, you posting this gives you zero credibility.

It's a popular leftist talking point, but surprise - it isn't true!

so are you prepared to back this up? You seem to be suggesting that both the ritish and Russian empire enjoyed success in Afghanistan, with much larger armies to boot.

You say the fact that they lost is not true? WTF are you talking about?

Andrew

I guess when you don't know history you don't know who Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great are.

Feel free to put down Karl Marx and pick up a history text.

Next!

[M.Dancer]

I suggest you stop kissing ass.

I suggest you stop confusing me with one of your fantasies. In fact, perhaps if you use two hands to type you might have an easier time trying to make sense.

[M.Dancer]

By definition, you posting this gives you zero credibility.

It's a popular leftist talking point, but surprise - it isn't true!

so are you prepared to back this up? You seem to be suggesting that both the ritish and Russian empire enjoyed success in Afghanistan, with much larger armies to boot.

You say the fact that they lost is not true? WTF are you talking about?

Andrew

I guess when you don't know history you don't know who Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great are.

Feel free to put down Karl Marx and pick up a history text.

Next!

Maybe he feels that the reason Afghanistan is Muslim becasue a proto Taliban Jack negotiated Islam into their lives...I mean....isn't that how Islam expanded? In a non colonial, gender neutral way?

[Peter F]

Youre so full of shit your stink is coming through my monitor.

Good. I'm glad. Maybe it you will realize that the shit on your monitor is your own .

We are there to support the karzai giovernment to become self sufficient. One of the ways of doing that is defending the people rebuilding the country from being murdered by these animals.

So far so good.

Unfortunately for your delicate sensibilities, this can sometimes mean blowing the crap out of the enemy, and make no mistake, the enemy of the CF's and the karzai government is the taliban.

No shit sherlock. I agree 100%.

I guess you just want them to surrender to them and hope the taliban build roads and bridges?

You guess wrong.

Since when has negotiations meant surrender? Surrender what?

Did the Hon.Jack Layton mention surrender? The only people spouting surrender is you and your ilk in an attempt to discredit what Hon.Jack Layton is saying. You know full well he never mentioned 'surrender'. You know full well that negotiations mean just that - negotiations.

So what's all this bullshit of yours about surrender?. You know its bullshit yet you keep spitting it out.

Why the need to spew bullshit about surrender? Why the smokescreen? What are you trying to obscure?

Why do you insist on being willfully ignorant?

You won't recognize that negotiation is precisely what Kharzai is aiming for. He has to, he has no other choice. The NATO nations also recognize this. The whole point of the military operations is to bring the Taliban to realize that thier only hope for success is through negotiations with the Kharzai government. They are trying to prove to the Taliban that they (the Taliban) will achieve nothing without negotiating.

Because the Taliban are not restricted to within Afghanistans borders, and because NATO is in the position politically, that extension of the war to Afghanistans neighbours is to be avoided; there is no way in hell NATO can achieve your much sought for complete and utter unconditional Victory over the Taliban. Therefore, the Taliban must either be brought to the negotiating table or the Kharzai government must be left to stand on its own...wich is why Kharzai will be seeking negotiations also.

The willfull ignorance is yours.

[White Doors]

And what exactly would we have to concede to them?

Burqa's must be worn on Wednesdays and Thursdays but not during the full moon on every other Saturday?

Compulsive praying to Allah only has to be followed when beaten?

Women are free to work so long as they are chained to their pious brother?

Little girls are allowed to go to school if they proclaim an oath to go through genital mutilations?

You can fly a kite so long as you don't look at it?

public beheadings now by invitation only? - mess to be cleaned up at least 2 hours prior to the soccer game?

You think negotiations will solve all this and you call me ignorant?

haha

We are there to make sure that the government is able to defend itself against these murderous fascists.

When they are able to, we go.

Until we get there, everythign we have contributed already is in jeopardy.

[M.Dancer]

What would Taliban Jack offer in negotiations? What would he ask for?

Equal Opportunity Suicide Bombers?

Transgendered Celestial Virgins?

No one under 8 may be executed?

Agenda for Historic Peace talks between Jack Layton and Taliban leader - room 202 Casino Du Lac Leamy, Quebec

8:00 am – Jack Layton opening comments and welcome to assembled media and Taliban representative.

8:05 am – Taliban representative walks to podium, poses for photographs with Mr. Layton.

8:06 am – Taliban representative cleaves Mr. Layton in the forehead with giant axe.

8:08 am – Peace talks end.

8:10 am – Olivia Chow says she is "encouraged by talks” – announces plan to run for leadership of NDP.

http://rickmercer.blogspot.com/2006/09/far...-to-summer.html

The Taliban's bargaining position has been quite clear since their inception. They don't bargain. And when you possess the ineffable wisdom of Allah, any mitigating of Allah's will is blasphemy, and blasphemers are killed.

[M.Dancer]

And what exactly would we have to concede to them?

Burqa's must be worn on Wednesdays and Thursdays but not during the full moon on every other Saturday?

Compulsive praying to Allah only has to be followed when beaten?

Don't make me go out and buy a tin foil hat....stop stealing my Ideas from my brain!

[AndrewL]

I guess when you don't know history you don't know who Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great are.

Feel free to put down Karl Marx and pick up a history text.

Next!

I know that if we are comparing moments in history that Alexander the great and Ghenghis khan are in no way comparable at all to the current situation. I think it is far more relevant to keep our comparisons in modern history and not go back to the ancient world or the 13th century. That is ridiculous. Or are you proposing that NATO begin using the tactics employed by Khan?

Andrew

[White Doors]

And what exactly would we have to concede to them?

Burqa's must be worn on Wednesdays and Thursdays but not during the full moon on every other Saturday?

Compulsive praying to Allah only has to be followed when beaten?

Don't make me go out and buy a tin foil hat....stop stealing my Ideas from my brain!

Great minds!

[White Doors]

I guess when you don't know history you don't know who Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great are.

Feel free to put down Karl Marx and pick up a history text.

Next!

I know that if we are comparing moments in history that Alexander the great and Ghenghis khan are in no way comparable at all to the current situation. I think it is far more relevant to keep our comparisons in modern history and not go back to the ancient world or the 13th century. That is ridiculous. Or are you proposing that NATO begin using the tactics employed by Khan?

Andrew

As equally disengenious as comparing the current operation to the Soviet one and the Bristish one before that. If you agree, we are making progress

[AndrewL]

Maybe he feels that the reason Afghanistan is Muslim becasue a proto Taliban Jack negotiated Islam into their lives...I mean....isn't that how Islam expanded? In a non colonial, gender neutral way?

Now we are getting somewhere. The first afghanis to long ago accept and submit to islam were also the first to resist soviet occupation. See where this is headed?

Andrew

[White Doors]

Maybe he feels that the reason Afghanistan is Muslim becasue a proto Taliban Jack negotiated Islam into their lives...I mean....isn't that how Islam expanded? In a non colonial, gender neutral way?

Now we are getting somewhere. The first afghanis to long ago accept and submit to islam were also the first to resist soviet occupation. See where this is headed?

Andrew

Uhh.. No, merely another example of the Afghan's being conquered...

Same as Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great.

[AndrewL]

As equally disengenious as comparing the current operation to the Soviet one and the Bristish one before that. If you agree, we are making progress

Nonsense. The people the brits and the soviets fought are the aame people that live in afghanistan today. They were not the same people in the 13the century and they certainly were not the same poeple in alexanders time. (there was no such thing as afghanistan in either of those periods, BTW).

We are talking islamic insurgency, a deep hatred and distrust of the west, modern western soldiers who are ignorant, and the fact that we have already been there 6 years and the rhetoric we use makes us sound like the russians.... "ifonly we build that highway, everybody will love us" gimme a fuckin break.

Andrew

[AndrewL]

Uhh.. No, merely another example of the Afghan's being conquered...

Same as Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great.

Wow. OK, now lets move beyond grade six history class... and maybe start to understand the world and its people in a little bit more detail.

Whatever, you are just a waste of time.

Andrew

[White Doors]

As equally disengenious as comparing the current operation to the Soviet one and the Bristish one before that. If you agree, we are making progress

Nonsense. The people the brits and the soviets fought are the aame people that live in afghanistan today. They were not the same people in the 13the century and they certainly were not the same poeple in alexanders time. (there was no such thing as afghanistan in either of those periods, BTW).

We are talking islamic insurgency, a deep hatred and distrust of the west, modern western soldiers who are ignorant, and the fact that we have already been there 6 years and the rhetoric we use makes us sound like the russians.... "ifonly we build that highway, everybody will love us" gimme a fuckin break.

Andrew

There were no Pashtuns in Afghanistan in the 13th century?

Really? If they were not there, where were they? On vacation?

Modern western soldiers are ignorant?

Seems to me they did a good job in Kosovo? no? No Pastuns there eh? wait - no this is a religious thing.. Wait, not it's the difficult terrain.. wait.. wait a minute.. The karzai regime is corrupt... no wait.. we are murdering innocent civilians....

I think you are at the end of your talking points list now.

ta ta

[White Doors]

Uhh.. No, merely another example of the Afghan's being conquered...

Same as Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great.

Wow. OK, now lets move beyond grade six history class... and maybe start to understand the world and its people in a little bit more detail.

Whatever, you are just a waste of time.

Andrew

I know.

Don't you just hate it when you don't have a good rebuttal?

Try again later if you like.

Oh, btw - here is a little tidbit for ya - proof that the best advice received is often the same as the advice that you give.

The history of the Pashtuns is ancient, and much of it has yet to be fully researched. From the 2nd millennium BC to the present, Pashtun regions have seen invasions and migrations including Aryan tribes (Iranian peoples, Indo-Aryans, Medes, Persians and Mauryas), Scythians, Kushans, Hephthalites, Greeks, Arabs, Turks, and Mongols. There are many conflicting theories about the origins of the Pashtun people, some modern and others archaic, both among historians and the Pashtuns themselves.

Ancient references

The Greek historian Herodotus first mentioned a people called Pactyans, living on the eastern frontier of the Persian Satrapy Arachosia as early as the 1st millennium BCE.[17] In addition, the Rig-Veda mentions a tribe called the Pakthas (in the region of Pakhat) inhabiting eastern Afghanistan, and some have speculated that they may have been early ancestors of the Pashtuns.[18] Other ancient peoples linked to the Pashtuns includes the Bactrians who spoke a related Middle Iranian language.

Pashtuns are also historically referred to as ethnic Afghans, as the terms Pashtun and Afghan were synonymous until the advent of modern Afghanistan and the division of the Pashtuns by the Durand Line which is a border drawn by the British in the late 19th century. According to V. Minorsky, W.K. Frazier Tyler, M.C. Gillet and several other scholars, "The word Afghan first appears in history in the Hudud-al-Alam in 982 CE."[19] It was used by the Pashtuns and refers to a common legendary ancestor known as Afghana.

It is believed that the Pashtuns emerged from the area around Kandahar and the Sulaiman Mountains, and began expanding millennia ago.[9] In this geographic location they would have often been in close contact with the ancient Persians and Indians,[20] and may have been Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Hindus, and Jews prior to the arrival of Muslim Arabs in the 7th century.[21][22][23]

from wikipedia btw - no need to pick up a heavy heavy bookie wookie with your little tired limp wrists..

[White Doors]

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