Is Le Pen for real?

[BC_chick]

Make sure to read the whole thing.....

Le Pen courts Jewish vote

Jean-Marie Le Pen courted the French Jewish vote in an interview with an Israeli daily in the lead-up to presidential elections. "Jews who are French and linked to France, and whose interests are those of France, should vote for me as a bloc," the right-wing candidate told Ma'ariv on Thursday. Elections will be held Sunday.

Le Pen suggested that front-runner Nicolas Sarkozy, the son of a Hungarian immigrant and a French woman of Greek Jewish origin, was not "French enough" to lead the country.

"The French president has to embody the French nation," he said. "Sarkozy has only one grandparent of French origin. He might fulfill legal obligations to present himself as candidate, but he does not fulfill the ethical conditions. I myself fit much better than many other candidates to be at the head of this country."

Le Pen also said there is no proof that Tehran intends to develop military nuclear capacity. "And even if this is Tehran's intention, one can not prohibit Iran what its neighbors, Pakistan, India, Israel and China already have." Asked about President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's declarations that Israel should be destroyed, Le Pen answered, "He did not say how."

Le Pen called on France to have a greater role in the Middle East and expressed astonishment that Israel, although "responsible for all damages caused in Lebanon," did not take part at a Lebanon aid conference in Paris. The summer war in Lebanon was sparked by a cross-border raid by the Lebanese terrorist group Hezbollah in which eight soldiers were killed and two kidnapped.

That's gotta be some kind of evil taunt. Not even Le Pen is that out of touch with reality. But then again, looking at his other ambitions I wonder whether or not he really believes what he is saying here.

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/101274.html

[ScottSA]

"Jews who are French and linked to France, and whose interests are those of France, should vote for me as a bloc," the right-wing candidate told Ma'ariv on Thursday..."And even if this is Tehran's intention, one can not prohibit Iran what its neighbors, Pakistan, India, Israel and China already have." Asked about President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's declarations that Israel should be destroyed, Le Pen answered, "He did not say how."

Two little problems here. First, the obvious one, is that this position is hardly the best way to win the Jewish vote, and second, there's a little thing called the NPT, which Iran is a signatory to. What he is in effect saying is to scrap the NPT because some folks broke it, and allow unrestricted nuke procurement. That is insane.

[jdobbin]

That's gotta be some kind of evil taunt. Not even Le Pen is that out of touch with reality. But then again, looking at his other ambitions I wonder whether or not he really believes what he is saying here.

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/101274.html

Le Pen seems to thrive on the outrageous. France seems to have a short supply of leadership at the moment.

[marcinmoka]

Le Pen seems to thrive on the outrageous. France seems to have a short supply of leadership at the moment.

Part 1 - Yes, Le Pen is absurd. If not dangerous. I'd go call him crazy, but in a legal sense, that would make him unaccountable for the things he says. One cannot excuse him.

Part 2 - Sarko(zy) is the leadership France needs. Desperately. Of the three serious candidates, he is also the SOLE with a coherent plan of action.

You could argue Segolene Royale does too, but I don't think anyone but impressionable young ideologues take it seriously. Most of her support, as well as Bayrou, is hailing from people who do not support them, but are simply afraid of Sarkozy, and *gasp*, anglo-saxon liberalism.

[rover1]

Yes, he is for real. But not as 'for real' as previously.

[marcinmoka]

And amen to that.

If they do not get their fiscal house in order, and fail to provide more genuine opportunities for both immigrants and youth, we will only see twice as many Le Pen / FN - tistes rise once to take over.

Only 2 days left. I'm awaiting anxiously.

[BC_chick]

Sarko(zy) is the leadership France needs. Desperately. Of the three serious candidates, he is also the SOLE with a coherent plan of action.

True. But looking at the platform itself, it works both both for him and against him. I do think he's going to win though.

[marcinmoka]

But looking at the platform itself, it works both both for him and against him

I think I know what you're saying. For him, in that he will slow down the decline, against him, since it will rile up bourgeoisie marxist ideaologues (an irony in itself). Correct?

[Michael Bluth]

Part 2 - Sarko(zy) is the leadership France needs. Desperately. Of the three serious candidates, he is also the SOLE with a coherent plan of action.

Sarkozy would make a great President.

I wold like to see a Sarkozy - Le Pen runoff. Just to ensure a Sarkozy win.

[marcinmoka]

It's perplexing how vocal and passionate the anti-Sarko crowd is. Mind you, having worked there as teacher, I can say first hand that pragmatism is shunned, and everyone is taught to abide by some ideal. May 68' is still the subject of lore.

Example : Racism in the labour market. It exists in France (in short, I blame it on the small but vocal minority of second generation, who tarnish the image of their parents by being annoying, lawless hooligans, but that's a whole other thread) . Yet for decades, racism in a nation who's motto contains "equality and fraternity" (+ liberty) was ignored, as if it couldn't exist.

Then a paradigm shift occurred in November of last year,and (outer) Paris was burning. Youth had no jobs, and nothing to do. So they burned more cars than is usual. Yet 11 candidates seek scapegoats. The extreme left blames it on capitalism.....and jews. The extreme right, on immigrants themselves....and jews. Than the center dosen't ignore it but dosen't accept it. And Segolene, well....she's just Segolene living it out in Sego-Land where everyone makes smores and sings koom-ba-ya all day.

It's only Sarko who broke the taboo and admitted discrimination exists (though not towards the car-burners, because frankly speaking, would you hire them?? It's their peaceful parents who face the legitimate challenge).

He proposes a few years of affirmative action, which I generally find unjust towards the poor, but not visibly a minority. But in weighing things out, it is a far lesser evil than social unrest, petty theft, and the increasing animosity amongst races, with all the derivatives that surface as a result.

Yet the irony is, he is the one who is tarnished in the public eye as being a racist, despite wanting to do the most to improve social cohesion.

Et ca, j'ai du mal a croire!!!!!

[ScottSA]

He proposes a few years of affirmative action, which I generally find unjust towards the poor, but not visibly a minority. But in weighing things out, it is a far lesser evil than social unrest, petty theft, and the increasing animosity amongst races, with all the derivatives that surface as a result.

Yet the irony is, he is the one who is tarnished in the public eye as being a racist, despite wanting to do the most to improve social cohesion.

Et ca, j'ai du mal a croire!!!!!

Le pen is absolutely right in calling for an abrupt end to immigration. At least immigration from North Africa. Everything else is a bandaid destined to fail.

[BC_chick]

He proposes a few years of affirmative action, which I generally find unjust towards the poor, but not visibly a minority.

Maybe here in North America, but in France higher education is free. That means the rich, the poor and the immigrants can all get an education, but afterward the poor don't continue to wear their perceived social disadvantages on their skin colour when looking for a job the way that the immigrants do. Therefore, ultimately, it's the immigrants that end up paying the price in the job-market.

Sarkozy's own Hungarian, Jewish, and Greek lineage is proof that France doesn't care about immigrants as much as they do about non-white immigrants.

[rover1]

France is under considerably more illegal immigration pressure than Canada will ever be or ever could be for geographical and other reasons. Ditto for Spain.

[geoffrey]

Applying Canadian values to France simply won't ever grant you a clearer picture of the situation. France is not a multicultural nation, nor should we ever expect them to be. They are French, and that is their choice.

Personally, Sarkozy seems ok, but he's a little bit too right wing in the social issues for me to ever vote for him. He's on record saying French kids need religion in their education... in whatever form... also supporting the subsidization of mosques (another uggh). Big government right wing politics with an ounce of protectionism is going to be bad for everyone involved.

On the other hand, we have Mr. Francois Bayrou who would be an excellent choice for President. A fierce globalist, open markets supporter... without all the social conservativism of Sarkozy. The UDF is a good central choice for France. Third way politics of Clinton are the way to go. The country desperately needs someone like him to cut their spending and get it to a more sustainable position.

[marcinmoka]

Maybe here in North America, but in France higher education is free. That means the rich, the poor and the immigrants can all get an education, but afterward the poor don't continue to wear their perceived social disadvantages on their skin colour when looking for a job the way that the immigrants do.

I take you haven't studies in a French University recently. Free....but pathetic. And after the labour market reforms, that should be issue number II.

In the first month of school, there is absolutely no space to sit. People end up sitting on the steps in classrooms. By mid year, there is about 1/3 of the students. It's not that they don't show up to lectures, it's that they drop out. Dropout rates are around 55%, i.e over half. But the government still ended up allocating resources to the 1/2 who did drop out, while the 1/2 who remains and actually is in need of the resources, are outta luck.

That's why the rich families send their kids to the Grandes Ecoles, (private universities with world rankings).

[BC_chick]

On the other hand, we have Mr. Francois Bayrou who would be an excellent choice for President. A fierce globalist, open markets supporter... without all the social conservativism of Sarkozy. The UDF is a good central choice for France. Third way politics of Clinton are the way to go. The country desperately needs someone like him to cut their spending and get it to a more sustainable position.

The fact that for the first time his party broke past the 8-10% support (up to 25% recently) shows that France doesn't really want the heavy-leaning right or left ideologies of Royal or Sarkozy. It's obviously too late for this election, but hopefully France won't slide into an abyss of bipartisanship like we're seeing everywhere else.

[marcinmoka]

He's on record saying French kids need religion in their education... in whatever form

I'm not to cool to this idea.

But regarding this idea:

also supporting the subsidization of mosques (another uggh).

At first I was skeptical, but I realized there is one GREAT VALUE in this proposal. If you get to subsidize the mosques, you in turn get say in how they are run and control their direction. I think it is a brilliant measure.

The Brits are now starting to pay attention to this idea, because their old "laissez-faire" approach has spawned radical mosques with even more radical Imams. Et le voila, 7/7 unfortunately occurred.

This way the French can just veto a radical preacher,as well as monitor activity in search of fundamentalist sentiment. I too am against big government, but when Fundamentalism is a reality, and this seems a good combat it.

As per Bayrou, (I too am a big fan of the Clintonian third way) I kinda of liked him, but he is not fit to govern France, at least not yet. He would not make the tough decisions France needs, and while he wouldn't be reckless with the economy as Segolene Royale, he would just slump and continue with the old Chirac approach.

[BC_chick]

Maybe here in North America, but in France higher education is free. That means the rich, the poor and the immigrants can all get an education, but afterward the poor don't continue to wear their perceived social disadvantages on their skin colour when looking for a job the way that the immigrants do.

I take you haven't studies in a French University recently. Free....but pathetic. And after the labour market reforms, that should be issue number II.

In the first month of school, there is absolutely no space to sit. People end up sitting on the steps in classrooms. By mid year, there is about 1/3 of the students. It's not that they don't show up to lectures, it's that they drop out. Dropout rates are around 55%, i.e over half. But the government still ended up allocating resources to the 1/2 who did drop out, while the 1/2 who remains and actually is in need of the resources, are outta luck.

That's why the rich families send their kids to the Grandes Ecoles, (private universities with world rankings).

So? Overcrowded or not, absent of rich kids or not, we're still left with the problem that after graduating the poor whites don't wear their disadvantages in their names and all over their face in the job-market the way visible minorities do.

[marcinmoka]

So? Overcrowded or not, absent of rich kids or not, we're still left with the problem that after graduating the poor whites don't wear their disadvantages in their names and all over their face in the job-market the way visible minorities do.

I know, that's why I'm not big fan of American style affirmative action. But I think (as I stated earlier in this thread) that if it is capped a short term boost, like 5 years, that would do no harm.

One small step at a time....

[marcinmoka]

Le pen is absolutely right in calling for an abrupt end to immigration. At least immigration from North Africa.

I don't care where they are from, as long as they can contribute to society. The Maghreb, or Poland, Brazil, India, Russia or China. Whatever, as long as they respect the laws, are tolerant, *actively want to fit into their host society* , are motivated to work, and have the skills and motivations to lead successful lives.

They lack skilled workers, and lord knows, their tax base is not getting any larger (even though they are a rarity, with a positive birth rate). Cutting off all immigration would hurt them even more, but it is true, they need to diversify their immigration, not just from one or two regions. That only serves to prevent social cohesian as groups feel more akin to stick amongst themselves for longer periods of time.

[BC_chick]

So? Overcrowded or not, absent of rich kids or not, we're still left with the problem that after graduating the poor whites don't wear their disadvantages in their names and all over their face in the job-market the way visible minorities do.

I know, that's why I'm not big fan of American style affirmative action. But I think (as I stated earlier in this thread) that if it is capped a short term boost, like 5 years, that would do no harm.

One small step at a time....

Your statement to which I was originally responding was:

He proposes a few years of affirmative action, which I generally find unjust towards the poor, but not visibly a minority.

I was pointing out that in a society where everyone has access to education, affirmative is not really needed for the poor as much as it is for visible minorities.

[marcinmoka]

I was pointing out that in a society where everyone has access to education, affirmative is not really needed for the poor as much as it is for visible minorities.

But if you are poor, regardless of race, chances are you attended a less than desireable high school. It's already part of the stigma. There was an economic study in Britain last year, where it turned out that poor whites from now defunct industrial centeres were really doing the worst in terms of school, substance abuse, major criminality, etc.

It's a hard question to approach. In the US, you end having rich blacks or asians getting preferential treatment over poor whites. That only adds to social tensions further. If such an action is proposed, it should be done according to "class" rather than blindly based on ethnicity. But than again, 5 years of action towards visible minorities won't do too much harm, and it's the best of all other options, thus why I support it.