Tories Release Dire Forecast on Kyoto

[B. Max]

More information.

http://www.ec.gc.ca/doc/media/m_123/toc_eng.html

This will be the good news. There are to many variables that they can't factor in. They can only factor in how many business they know will close their doors, they can't predict what business will actually do. They make assumptions that business will pay the extortion and not just close their doors and move out of the country. There is no way of knowing how investment will react. If investment doesn't get a return, they pull their money, foreign investment would avoid the country like the plague. They can't predict the effect it will have on wages. Exactly how many people will lose their homes and most likely collapse the real estate market. They can't predict how it will snowball. How many people are living pay cheque to pay cheque with mortgages and other payments. Even if they have a job they're gone immediately. It takes a long time to build a economy and it becomes complicated in the process but wrecked virtually over night.

[noahbody]

No hurricanes last year though devastion predicted. Ships stuck in ice. I have to shovel my walk this moring and it's April. Global warming is the new WMD.

[ScottSA]

I don't have any doctorates in earth science. I don't need one, I simply need to remember what everyone has said. Do you know of anyone who knows what they are talking about and claims that we can somehow reverse the warming trend, if indeed there is one? Do you know anyone who can explain how shuttling industry from pollution-regulated countries to unregulated countries is going to cut back on CO2?

Ya I remeber what a lot of people have said too. Most of them have degrees dealing with the earth sciences though.

The world will correct itself if given time. The bigger the correction it has to make the worse things are going to be for us.

Well if the rich lead the way in developing new technologies that are E friendly, eventually they will be able to sell them to the developing countries and there will be little to no need for regulation at all.

You have the solution right here, probably unbeknownst to you. The operative is "eventually". Eventually a lot of things will happen; the trend toward cleaner energy will continue and succeed eventually, we will wean ourselves off fossil fuels eventually, and the earth will continue to clean up and eventually will be clean...that trend has been happening since the 70s. Even if manmade CO2 is causing a slight uptick in GW, if GW is indeed taking place, then Kyoto is certainly not going to effect it positively by making more CO2.

[Who's Doing What?]

You have the solution right here, probably unbeknownst to you. The operative is "eventually". Eventually a lot of things will happen; the trend toward cleaner energy will continue and succeed eventually, we will wean ourselves off fossil fuels eventually, and the earth will continue to clean up and eventually will be clean...that trend has been happening since the 70s. Even if manmade CO2 is causing a slight uptick in GW, if GW is indeed taking place, then Kyoto is certainly not going to effect it positively by making more CO2.

YA, you might aswell wait until the missiles have been launched to build a bomb shelter.

THE longer we wait to change, and the slower we accomplish it, the worse the results will be. Wouldn't you rather pay a dime today to save a dollar tomorrow? Apparently not.

[ScottSA]

You have the solution right here, probably unbeknownst to you. The operative is "eventually". Eventually a lot of things will happen; the trend toward cleaner energy will continue and succeed eventually, we will wean ourselves off fossil fuels eventually, and the earth will continue to clean up and eventually will be clean...that trend has been happening since the 70s. Even if manmade CO2 is causing a slight uptick in GW, if GW is indeed taking place, then Kyoto is certainly not going to effect it positively by making more CO2.

YA, you might aswell wait until the missiles have been launched to build a bomb shelter.

THE longer we wait to change, and the slower we accomplish it, the worse the results will be. Wouldn't you rather pay a dime today to save a dollar tomorrow? Apparently not.

It's not a question of paying a dime today, it's a question of destroying the economy for no reason whatsoever. Kyoto will simply make things worse. Do you know what the treaty is even about? Do you know what its requirements are and what the net result is? I bet not. I bet you're one of the folks who run around signing petitions to ban dihydrogen oxide.

[Martin Chriton]

So the country will collapse ecconomically according to the CPC.

The world will destroy us evironmentally according to most scientists.

Hmm.....A case of Give me Poverty, or Give me Death.

I think the CPC is saying to take it slow and not rush into it. We can't meet the Kyoto targets in 2-3 years. If we wanted to meet them we should've started a few years back. At this point, we should admit we failed on Kyoto, and come up with a new long term strategy.

[Who's Doing What?]

It's not a question of paying a dime today, it's a question of destroying the economy for no reason whatsoever. Kyoto will simply make things worse. Do you know what the treaty is even about? Do you know what its requirements are and what the net result is? I bet not. I bet you're one of the folks who run around signing petitions to ban dihydrogen oxide.

Uh huh. I remeber when Free Trade was going to ruin the economy according to some.

I fail to see how it will ruin the economy when atleast one new entire sector of development and manufacturing will have to be created to handle the new products needed.

As for the sending billions to other countries, is it not also true that once we are below emission standards and have extra credits other countries will be sending us money to buy our left over credits?

[B. Max]

'ScottSA' post='210289' date='Apr 20 2007, 03:20 PM']

one new entire sector of development and manufacturing will have to be created to handle the new products needed.

What new products what new industry. If that were the case it would already exist.

[Who's Doing What?]

What new products what new industry. If that were the case it would already exist.

Well in a sense it already does exist. We already are producing wind turbines for the home, solar panels, hybrid cars, energy efficient appliances, but still it is not enough. There is still a lot of room for growth. New products, new technologies, all need to be developed and manufactured. Even if we don't try to meet Kyoto, we should still be striving to reduce GHG's, amost other things, and we need new technology to do so effectively. Lowering our energy demands or providing new sources is going to be a big part of reducing GHG's. Just look at the industry created by single products, like cars, computers, cell phones, and other things. One new technology spawns variety that creates jobs in development, sales, distribution, and manufacturing, not to mention the management need for all these areas. The next GHG or eco-friendly inovation could spawn an industry similar to that of the automotive or computer industries.

[noahbody]

I fail to see how it will ruin the economy when atleast one new entire sector of development and manufacturing will have to be created to handle the new products needed.

"I fail to see, therefore I am a Liberal."

[Michael Bluth]

Even if we don't try to meet Kyoto, we should still be striving to reduce GHG's, amost other things, and we need new technology to do so effectively. Lowering our energy demands or providing new sources is going to be a big part of reducing GHG's.

We already are striving to reduce GHG's.

The steps needed to meet Kyoto would kill the economy.

That's the whole point.

[B. Max]

Just look at the industry created by single products, like cars, computers, cell phones, and other things. One new technology spawns variety that creates jobs in development, sales, distribution, and manufacturing, not to mention the management need for all these areas. The next GHG or eco-friendly inovation could spawn an industry similar to that of the automotive or computer industries.

There are four core industries. From which all else comes from. That can't be changed. It is a natural law that has always existed and always will. Kyoto would devastate those industries and the everything else would collapse along with it.

[Who's Doing What?]

There are four core industries. From which all else comes from. That can't be changed. It is a natural law that has always existed and always will. Kyoto would devastate those industries and the everything else would collapse along with it.

Whatever. Industry sectors then. Doesn't change the fact that as we require new products and new technologies, jobs will be created. They might not replace all the jobs lost, but the collapse of the economy is not going to happen. It's just Chicken Little running around telling everyone that the sky is falling just because the idea of reduced emissions doesn't fit the CPC political game plan.

Edit: Actually looking back you are the one who brought up "industry". I said "sectors of development and manufacturing". So thanks for taking us off on a tangent. Try to keep up in the future.

[Who's Doing What?]

"I fail to see, therefore I am a Liberal."

Not another one. Tell me, just where is the CPC brainwashing camp that makes everyone believe anyone who isn't a CPC supporter a Liberal.

Such brilliant decuctive skills. I applaud your reasoning.

[Who's Doing What?]

We already are striving to reduce GHG's.

The steps needed to meet Kyoto would kill the economy.

That's the whole point.

Reported

[Michael Bluth]

We already are striving to reduce GHG's.

The steps needed to meet Kyoto would kill the economy.

That's the whole point.

Reported

You are trying to report an argument that is more logically sound and clearly presented than your own?

Man hiti you sure are one sorry Liberal.

[Who's Doing What?]

You are trying to report an argument that is more logically sound and clearly presented than your own?

Man hiti you sure are one sorry Liberal.

Reported

[Michael Bluth]

You are trying to report an argument that is more logically sound and clearly presented than your own?

Man hiti you sure are one sorry Liberal.

Reported

If you reported *every* argument that is more logially sound and clearly presented than your own you would have to do it for every post you make on this board.

[Who's Doing What?]

If you reported *every* argument that is more logially sound and clearly presented than your own you would have to do it for every post you make on this board.

Reported

[madmax]

1) The world is going to come to and end

2) If we try to do something about it, we will lose our jobs.

These are the over the top arguements that I hear from the Green and CPC fearmongerers.

Again the Liberals, like Afghanistan are trying to play both sides of the fence. They block as much Climate Legislation from getting done as they preach it should get done.

The Conservatives are going to be dragged kicking and screaming into the realm of climate change.

Talk of the end of the world is premature, yet that is no reason to continue to waste another year not addressing the issue.

Fact is, until some Conservatives within the party actively seek out a solution, the Conservatives are left with nothing but fear mongering and trying find a way to convince Canadians that we really shouldn't be too concerned about Climate Change.

I would have been more interested to see a plan by the Environment ministry that had some teeth, and then see what the finance dept position was on the plan.

But clearly the intention of Baird was to shape the electorate.

If the CPC are against Kyoto, as many CPC supporters in this forum appear to be then why haven't they just said,

"We don't believe in climate change."

"The end of the world is coming."

[noahbody]

"I fail to see, therefore I am a Liberal."

Not another one. Tell me, just where is the CPC brainwashing camp that makes everyone believe anyone who isn't a CPC supporter a Liberal.

Such brilliant decuctive skills. I applaud your reasoning.

Yes I realize you could be NDP or Green or non-partisan as well. Liberal just made a better punchline.

Yes the economy would be greatly affected. Corporations exist to make more money for the shareholders. Rightly or wrongly so, there would be massive layoffs rationalized that it was something that had to be done. Usually the other thing that's first to go is advertising dollars, which would in turn affect that industry. In markets such as Calgary, people who have boughten a house in the last few years and have a big mortgage would be hooped, if they have to sell and move to get another job.

Even if you believe in the principles of Kyoto, you must realize that as a solution it is useless. The plan to meet the targets only raises money to export to countries. A Canadian solution that would keep money in this country's economy would be a lot smarter, especially is Canada can meets its targets it isn't going to have a signifiant impact on the overall environment.

[madmax]

Here is an article regarding the Bairds Approach

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonis...ff-87163b8086ae

Most important, it suggests meeting Kyoto targets means cutting emissions by one-third annually, starting Jan. 1, 2008 -- an overnight shift in consumption that would have a radical impact.

But that isn't how Kyoto is structured. First-phase reductions are averaged over five years, until 2012, and can be carried over to the next phase if unmet.

What I don't like about this is that it appears that the government has chosen to cook the books.

Jan 1, 2008? 275000 job losses by 2009?

There has been that much job loss in Manufacturing the last few years, and not a peep from this government. These jobs are real losses, not just projected.

The problem with a skewed report like this is that a credible argument regarding the Liberals dragging their feet, has been totally undermined by an irresponsible report that will undermine the Environment Minister.

It would appear that few are taking the Ministers report at face value, or very seriously.

[B. Max]

Whatever. Industry sectors then. Doesn't change the fact that as we require new products and new technologies, jobs will be created. They might not replace all the jobs lost, but the collapse of the economy is not going to happen. It's just Chicken Little running around telling everyone that the sky is falling just because the idea of reduced emissions doesn't fit the CPC political game plan.

Edit: Actually looking back you are the one who brought up "industry". I said "sectors of development and manufacturing". So thanks for taking us off on a tangent. Try to keep up in the future.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Where will you get the material for your so called new technologies and new products. Just like man made global warming which doesn't exist, neither will your new products.

[madmax]

Even if you believe in the principles of Kyoto, you must realize that as a solution it is useless. The plan to meet the targets only raises money to export to countries. A Canadian solution that would keep money in this country's economy would be a lot smarter, especially is Canada can meets its targets it isn't going to have a signifiant impact on the overall environment.

These are good points. One of the most troubling things about Kyoto, is that once the Government made a decision, they didn't implement anything. They just sat.

I almost believe that the Liberal Plan was to let emmissions rise and just pay a bill at the end of the day. Here you go, we are doing our part, here is some money. There is little evidence to point to anything else.

[Who's Doing What?]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Where will you get the material for your so called new technologies and new products. Just like man made global warming which doesn't exist, neither will your new products.

Right. There is no such thing as innovation or creativity.

No point in researching new ways to generate energy, or new manufacturing processes, or new energy efficient products, B. Max has declared they will never exist. Sure, whatever you say man.