A New Deal?

Lost in Manitoba · November 11, 2003

Here is the link to the City of Winnipeg's New Deal proposal. Its basically a new tax plan and fiscal strategy to let the city move away from begging the feds and province for money, borrowing from lenders, and smothering homeowners with ever-increasing propert taxes. It's a blend of user fees and dedicated taxes collected by the city itself.

The other big cities of Canada seem to be interested and genuinly excited about the 'New Deal', as well as it being highly praised by the media. What's your opinion?

xcr · November 11, 2003

It sounds like it would increase the tax burdon on the poor (I dobt if landlords will lower rent), and increasing fees on things that all people need. If this is accounted for in the tax structure, howeer, then it may be a good idea.

Lost in Manitoba · November 12, 2003

Without getting too much into social engineering, this does have an influence on our behavior. The gov't wants more conservation and green policies. Well, if money is an issue with me, then obviously I will reduce the amount of garbage I throw out. This means recycling more(which won't be charged for), making conscience effort to buy products with less packaging, and ultimately lobby producers to reduce the amount of packaging, especially non-recycable packaging. The onus is on me.

MB has rent control and from what I have seen and heard, it is probably the cheapest place to live in Canada (in terms of rent).

xcr · November 12, 2003

If that is the case, than I would support the changes. Some efforts to incourage certin behaviour are necessary.

Goldie · November 12, 2003

Seems like a genuine attempt to include a people in making a sound informed descision on how to increase revenues in the least offensive manner. I lived in Winnipeg the first 25 years of my life. Great city!

A very comprehensive plan that should work well. Couple things though, How do they get income tax? And a large increase in the energy costs in the one of the coldest and hottest citys in Canada could be bad news for those just making it now.

Morgan · November 12, 2003

I think this is yet another way to to add taxes without government cutting expenditures.The government has been living handsomely off the new found taxes of their booming Internet pharamacies and now the US FDA will be cutting that Manitoba "industry" at the news. Bye, bye, a big chunk of provincial business taxes. Manitoba's NDP socialist philosophy is now catching up with them and they want to shift the responsibilities for their inability to make tough decisions to J.Q. Taxpayer. Even using the phrase "New Deal" kind of gives me the creeps.

Also, this idea of spinning the New Deal as something "noble" that will prevent Manitoba from groveling to the Feds...what a bunch of B.S. Groveling wouldn't work anyways because according Manley's budget update, the Feds have no $. The surplus is gone and Alberta and Ontario can't be forced to pony up more money for transfer payments.

Furthermore, if you compare the wording of the first column to the second column[in the linked article],there are many "would's" in the doom and gloom column of worst case scenarios yet only "could's" and "might's" in the column of optimistic new scenarios with the New Deal in place.

In other words, there's no certainty that property taxes will go down, with the "New Deal" in place. And consumers are already paying for purchases through the GST and provincial tax. As to spinning The New Deal the environmental way...honestly, do you really think that this is going to prevent people from buying new rubber tires for their car? Do you think consumers may look for environmentally friendly wings instead?

Doer's supporters are from the unions. He rose from the ranks of being CUPE's head honcho.

Both provincial and municipal civil servants make handsome salaries in Manitoba and there are too many of them. That's where Doer should look for $ - give the unions 2 choices: either major cuts in staffing levels or negotiated salary roll backs in the new contracts. But of course, Doer would prefer to spread the pain around to everyone not just his supporters.

Fyi, rent controls have made for a lot of tacky run down housing in the North End and inner city. Sounds good in theory.

The New Deal is nanny state taxation mindset on steroids.

Lost in Manitoba · November 14, 2003

something "noble" that will prevent Manitoba from groveling to the Feds

This is about cities (well Winnipeg anyway). Its being spearheaded by Glen Murray, Winnipeg's mayor, not Doer. Doer isn't completely onside, from what I hear. Glen Murray, though, is a leader in the Canadian Federation of Municipallities, as well as the spokesman for the Big City Mayors. As I understand it, this is a fight between the cities vs. Feds and Provinces. Trying to convince Ottawa to hand over control of finances will be fought tooth and nail.

The idea is that the majority of people live and make money in the city, and yet the city doesn't have enough revenue to mantain services. The majority of revenue comes from property taxes and government handouts. Does anyone think that property taxes are fair? Do you think it is right that the largest player in the economy should be in debt because they cannot get their share of tax revenue? The money is produced in the city, should it not be used to sustain that city? And, if the city actually puts in a dedicated tax guarantee, such as gas tax for roads only, than I would say so much the better.

I'm more familiar with Winnipeg, but imagine a city like Toronto, Clagary, or Vancouver under the "New Deal".

Morgan · November 21, 2003

Dear Lost,

Sorry I got the New Deal sponsor, Mayor Glen Murray, mixed up with Manitoba Premier Doer.

But it makes no difference really in my evaluation of the New Deal...more new taxes, no guarantees that property taxes will be substantially reduced as a result, all done so Murray and his over paid, over sized municipal staff levels are not reduced and so no votes are lost as a result of the cuts.

Lost, here's an article that's another way of explaining what I said before. Pay attention...New Deal= high publicity con game by Mayor who is planning to run on Liberal ticket in the next election and get appointed Director of Urban Affairs.

Highly paid City Managersshould be fired before New Deal is considered, Nov.8/03, The Sun.

How many supervisors, foremen, engineers and managers does it take to run a city department? Well, if you're talking about the city's public works department, 22 supervisors, 27 foremen, 19 engineers and 12 managers. At least those paid more than $50,000 that is. I give you the latest excerpts from "Fat City," the city's 2002 compensation disclosure report, which is causing quite a stir in this city, as Mayor Glen Murray tries to convince us why he should be raising our taxes under his proposed "new deal." ...Now you know why Mayor Murray wants to hit you with a five-cent a litre gas tax, a 1% sales tax, a 7% energy tax and a new garbage fee, among other things. He needs the money to pay for this circus. ..What we need is a "new deal" on the city bureaucracy before we make any changes to the tax system...City hall needs to go on a diet.

Craig Read · November 21, 2003

A New Deal ? Morgan is right - this is the same deal - escalating tax and spend burdens with lots of promises of 'in the future trust me, taxes will go down.'

Never in the history of mankind has a tax gone down. GST, Property Tax, Income Tax, PST, and so on ... they only go one way - UP.

This Winnipeg package has no reforms, no consumer oriented fees or usage rates, says nothing about the reform of health care or social welfare, has nothing to say on the needed reduction in the # of politicians and their handsome pensions, no transportation improvements and no improvement in Canada's very basic tier one democratic processes at the municipal level.

If you want reforms you need to base systems around the consumer. This includes health and energy systems.

Even the Swedes are privatising health care, the Brits have privatised energy. Consumer based reforms work and that would go for social services and municipal services.

Basically this plan and Martin's are concerned not with a constitutional reformation of powers and taxation between the various levels but only with securing the current tax base and increasing tax burdens on selective groups - namely business mainly; through a host of new tax schemes.

In Ontario our 'New Deal' with 2 left wing jokers running the province and Toronto includes the following:

From Howdy Doody at Queen's park:

-Increase the minimum wage [this will cost jobs]

-increase business taxes by $2.2 billion [good one, this really attracts investment]

-cancel private school tax credits [good one,no need for choice or competition in schooling]

-cancelling personal income tax deductions [thanks, like we are rolling in disposable income here]

and of course Howdy said that to slay the deficit taxes will most probably go higher. Gee thanks.

No need for reforms, consumer based -choice based health care or reducing the billions wasted each year in each ministry.

From Miller the Left wing clown [a lawyer what else do you need to know ?], who won Toronto's Mayoralship:

-cancelling the Island airport and bridge, to buy downtown votes [costs jobs and money but hey in Canada profits are bad]

-has stated that property taxes will go up [Toronto has the worst rates in North America already]

-will do nothing to reform the spending and waste at left wing city hall - including union power which must be eradicated

Looking at this mess, and tossing in King Martin, 'mr tax and spend' who increased program spending in the 90s, my conclusion is that Canada will ressemble the pre-Arnie Mexifornia within about 3 years.

Time for Toronto to keep its own money and unilaterally declare a new deal. That is the only way to get things done in a muddled Con-Federation whose constitution is out of date and whose tax payers are out of control.

Lost in Manitoba · November 21, 2003

I think you may be a bit confused about the details Craig, but no matter. What would you propose for a new deal? You often write out good long posts, so c'mon, put some thought and details down.

About the Winnipeg ND, Its funny that the business community seems to be completely on board if it's such a bad deal. And to say that the tax burden may be shifted to the poor- the direstor of Winnipeg Harvest, basically a foodbank, says that under the ND, the charity will have to pay about $5000 more per year, BUT under the new system it'll be elligble for other incentives and programs, and there will be more support in place for poor families so they may not need to rely on W.Harvest.

Craig Read · November 21, 2003

Lost, my point is the following [according to the link i read]:

1. Shifting tax burdens according the ND means that no old taxes will be reduced only new ones introduced.

2. The ND states that over time Property taxes will go down by 50 %. No chance. City Council will never relinquish this tax base and neither would the province.

3. There is no constitutional reforms or legal reforms on the city vs. the province. Due to this i fail to see how business or the tax payer can trust the words of politicians and not expect higher rate increases.

4. There is no spending reforms mentioned. The biggest issue with city's besides Ottawa and the provinces stealing their money, is the wasteful spend and huge debts they have incurred [and lower credit ratings]. Spend and debt reduction with legally enforceable balanced budgets [ie. no accounting fraud, and one strike you are in jail Mr and Mrs City Councillor] is needed.

I don't believe that politicians willingly relinquish power or tax money.

It would take a bold mayor declaring unilateral re-confederation to enact far reaching legal, constitutional, tax and spend changes. Basically what i am proposing is a radical agenda - for instance Toronto exports $25 billion out of the city. That money would be kept here, we would renegotiate tax powers and would institute a new charter clearly dividing up tax and other royalties between the 3 levels. A legally enforceable taxpayer and debt reduction pact would be made and the city would crack down on abusive spending.

The ND from Winnipeg while it contains a few good ideas does not solve the main issues.

Lost in Manitoba · November 27, 2003

On the homepage of the New Deal, found here , they have some neat little programs to calculate the cost of owning a house under the old system and what it would cost under the new deal. They just posted a couple of days ago a similiar calculator for business. I encourage anyone who owns a business to try it out, and see what the results are under the New Deal. (and of course, share your findings)

Craig Read · November 28, 2003

Reads to me like the old deal. Promises of FUTURE tax relief. Yeah right. Okay have heard that one every since 1917. Taxes never go down, unless you cut them. You first cut taxes, and cut spending and then renegotiate the powers of taxation between various levels of gov't. I see nothing in this deal that even bothers to address the underlying problems besetting local government.