9/11

[Canadian Blue]

I'm gonna end this all off with a video for you all to learn the truth behind 9/11.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od6sH4JqEqI

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:You provided a list of assertions that are either:

1) Unprovable given the evidence available

2) Have reasonable alternative explanations that do not include an 'inside job'

3) Have absolutely nothing to do with question at hand.

I think you are demonstrating elementary thought here and that 911 truthers have considered all this and decided that (1) There is plenty of evidence of conspiracy (2) Too many coincidences. (3) The points often raised are relevant - in fact Bowman makes a statement to this on his site that I have already linked on this thread.

Perhaps you are right, all these people in the truth movement like Jones, Bowman,Hoffman, Von Beulow, Wood, etc should be listening to you. Just because they are from the top of intelligence, engineering and physics doesn't mean anything. We have been through this before, apparently you still consider yourself as an authority on these matters.

You should argue points instead of using your own "expertise" to show 911 truth is nonsense. You trumping around your own expertise sounds rediculous.

[PolyNewbie]

PSE Canadian Blue: I don't read your posts. Most people don't read cut & paste jobs- especially long cut & paste jobs.

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:Then you are obviously not that good at it. The sources of error in measurements by video evidence are painfully obvious yet you have ignored them in your calculations.

Actually I am quite good at it. I've been reviewed in many magazines and regularly get complimented by Phd people from around the world. I run on word of mouth. Plus I invent new stuff. I was even on wiki at one time but emailed them to take it off.

As far as errors in observation, I am familiar with those and have accounted. Thanks for your "expert" advice though.

[Riverwind]

As far as errors in observation, I am familiar with those and have accounted.

Great, then you must be willing to acknowledge that the collapse time is somewhere between 10-15s. You are deluding yourself if you think you can reduce the uncertainty to anything less than that based on video evidence.

[Canadian Blue]

Actually I am quite good at it. I've been reviewed in many magazines and regularly get complimented by Phd people from around the world. I run on word of mouth. Plus I invent new stuff. I was even on wiki at one time but emailed them to take it off.

I call bullshit, anyone else. I highly doubt you were on wiki, and I very much doubt you've been complimented by "Phd People".

I use cut and paste jobs to back up my arguments, something which you are incapable of.

I think you are demonstrating elementary thought here and that 911 truthers have considered all this and decided that (1) There is plenty of evidence of conspiracy (2) Too many coincidences. (3) The points often raised are relevant - in fact Bowman makes a statement to this on his site that I have already linked on this thread.

Are you just going to blame an international banking cabal, please somebody has already made the claim before and tried to fix it.

Polynewbie's statements:

Do you think getting to vote means democracy when both parties in the USA and all four out of five main parties in Canada are controlled by private central bankers that print our money for nothing, lend it at face value and use profits to control our society in every way from media to publishing to education and medacine through focus groups, tax free foundations and think tanks ?

Many people say there is a great big conspiracy for world government that has been going on for a very long time. Many people have said something to this affect like Kennedy and Larry MacDonald. The current Ron Paul certainly believes there is a grand conspiracy for world takeover by the banks. The banks have even spoken of such a conspiracy and basically admitted it. We have been warned about it be other bankers in the 30's.

The Nazi view of international banking.

Internationally, the Nazi Party believed that an international banking cabal was behind the global depression of the 1930s. Control of this cabal, which had grown to a position where it controlled both Europe and the United States, was identified with an elite and powerful group of Jews. However, a number of people believed that this was part of an ongoing plot by the Jewish people, as a whole, to achieve global domination. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which began its circulation in Russia at the beginning of the 20th century, were said to have confirmed this, already showing "evidence" that the Bolshevik takeover in Russia was in accordance with one of the protocols. Broadly speaking, the existence of large international banking or merchant banking organizations was well known at this time. Many of these banking organizations were able to exert influence upon nation states by extension or withholding of credit. This influence is not limited to the small states that preceded the creation of the German Empire as a nation state in the 1870s, but is noted in most major histories of all European powers from the 16th century onward. Nevertheless, after the Great Depression, this libelous and unverified manuscript took on an important role in Nazi Germany, thus providing another link in the Nazis ideological motivation for the destruction of that group in the Holocaust.

Once again you hold beliefs which are more similar to the nazi's then the rest of us.

As far as errors in observation, I am familiar with those and have accounted. Thanks for your "expert" advice though.

Strangely enough the vast majority of experts in structural engineering agree with the official story behind 9/11. Yet for some reason an electrical engineer seem's to know more than them.

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:Great, then you must be willing to acknowledge that the collapse time is somewhere between 10-15s. You are deluding yourself if you think you can reduce the uncertainty to anything less than that based on video evidence.

I agree with that. I worked from initial times not complete times and accounted for uncertantly, thank you for your expert advice once again.

You must have got the 15 seconds from Hoffmans site. Have you offered Hoffman any of your advice ?

[Riverwind]

Perhaps you are right, all these people in the truth movement like Jones, Bowman,Hoffman, Von Beulow, Wood, etc should be listening to you. Just because they are from the top of intelligence, engineering and physics doesn't mean anything.

A lot of smart people are hopelessly deluded. That is why I said their opinion means nothing if it not supported by a large number of other people with qualifications in the field. The fact is the overwhelming number of structural and civil engineering experts in the world do not support the truthie analysis.

Frankly, I am doubt I will ever change the minds of people such as yourself. I only bother to respond because I believe the junk science that you post needs to be deconstructed lest someone who does not understand science gets the wrong impression.

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:The fact is the overwhelming number of structural and civil engineering experts in the world do not support the truthie analysis.

Actually the "the overwhelming number of structural and civil engineering experts" simply will not discuss 911. Its very hard for a professional to speak against the establishment, I won't discuss why but if you were any where near as qualified as you pretend to be you would already know that.

Watch JBG, see how much he wants to talk about facts around 911. He belongs to a secret society just like engineers.

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind, how about getting back to the facts. How do you explain the following ?

(1) 3 buildings collapseing straight down at near freefall speed.

(forget this one, I know you say that would naturally happen)

(2) Cheneys stand down orders

(3) Evidence at base of towers after collapse- melted metal and concrete mixed togather in the "meteor"

(4) Incomplete & delayed investigation (guilty behaviour)

(5) Unusual destruction of evidence

(6) Key people involved in US government being Machevellians/Straussians, of which Carl Schmitt was as well. This philosophy says that its OK to lie to the public, the public are there to serve the needs of the oligarchy and as Kissinger described the army in Vietnam - "...just a bunch of dumb animals". The guys in US government are actually NAZI's because they follow the same philosophers as NAZI's. The are direct philosophical ties to the NAZI's as well as blood/financial (Bushes)

(7) Who is getting rich off the wars started by 911 ?

(8) why do you think Osama did it ? - Lets hear some of your evidence !

[Canadian Blue]

Watch JBG, see how much he wants to talk about facts around 911. He belongs to a secret society just like engineers.

What are you talking about? Are you saying that all engineers and lawyers belong to a secret society. Seriously dude get a psychiatrist.

(6) Key people involved in US government being Machevellians/Straussians, of which Carl Schmitt was as well. This philosophy says that its OK to lie to the public, the public are there to serve the needs of the oligarchy and as Kissinger described the army in Vietnam - "...just a bunch of dumb animals". The guys in US government are actually NAZI's because they follow the same philosophers as NAZI's. The are direct philosophical ties to the NAZI's as well as blood/financial (Bushes)

Neoconservatism has very little in common with nazism. Once again you are creating false allegation's.

Are you just going to blame an international banking cabal, please somebody has already made the claim before and tried to fix it.

Polynewbie's statements:

QUOTE

Do you think getting to vote means democracy when both parties in the USA and all four out of five main parties in Canada are controlled by private central bankers that print our money for nothing, lend it at face value and use profits to control our society in every way from media to publishing to education and medacine through focus groups, tax free foundations and think tanks ?

QUOTE

Many people say there is a great big conspiracy for world government that has been going on for a very long time. Many people have said something to this affect like Kennedy and Larry MacDonald. The current Ron Paul certainly believes there is a grand conspiracy for world takeover by the banks. The banks have even spoken of such a conspiracy and basically admitted it. We have been warned about it be other bankers in the 30's.

The Nazi view of international banking.

QUOTE

Internationally, the Nazi Party believed that an international banking cabal was behind the global depression of the 1930s. Control of this cabal, which had grown to a position where it controlled both Europe and the United States, was identified with an elite and powerful group of Jews. However, a number of people believed that this was part of an ongoing plot by the Jewish people, as a whole, to achieve global domination. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which began its circulation in Russia at the beginning of the 20th century, were said to have confirmed this, already showing "evidence" that the Bolshevik takeover in Russia was in accordance with one of the protocols. Broadly speaking, the existence of large international banking or merchant banking organizations was well known at this time. Many of these banking organizations were able to exert influence upon nation states by extension or withholding of credit. This influence is not limited to the small states that preceded the creation of the German Empire as a nation state in the 1870s, but is noted in most major histories of all European powers from the 16th century onward. Nevertheless, after the Great Depression, this libelous and unverified manuscript took on an important role in Nazi Germany, thus providing another link in the Nazis ideological motivation for the destruction of that group in the Holocaust.

Once again you hold beliefs which are more similar to the nazi's then the rest of us.

PSE Canadian Blue: I don't read your posts. Most people don't read cut & paste jobs- especially long cut & paste jobs.

Sorry, I didn't take into account all of the voices in your head.

[PolyNewbie]

Rules of neoliberal fascist sycophants for arguing on discussion groups:

(1) Avoid facts

(2) Dismiss facts as meaningless when they cannot be avoided (ex: testimony of Cheney giving stand down order)

(3) Discredit experts who agree with facts as possibly delusional even when their expertise shows them to be at the very top of their profession.

(4) Label someone as an anti semite when you can't win an arguement

(5) Label someone an antisemite when they talk about banks & the financial oligarchy.

Go along with the "neocon" label because its missleading and therefore useful.

[Riverwind]

(1) 3 buildings collapsing straight down at near freefall speed.

There is nothing unusual about buildings collapsing into their footprint. In fact, getting a building like the WTC towers to tip over would be quite difficult. I have illustrated why with a simple example. I asked you to provide a counter argument and you refused - mostly likely because you don't have one.

The speed of the fall is also not particularly unusual. There was more than enough potential energy in the structures to pulverize the concrete without a significant reduction in the speed of collapse. You agreed that the actual collapse times could be as long as 15s which is not even close to free fall.

(2) Cheney's stand down orders

There is no evidence that Cheney gave the order - there is only testimony from one person claiming that there was one. Even if we assume that testimony is accurate there is no evidence that the stand down order was anything other than the result of confusion and incompetence in the command chain. Canadian troops in Afghanistan have died because of communication problems in the USAF command chain. That more than explains any stand down order.

(3) Evidence at base of towers after collapse- melted metal and concrete mixed together in the "meteor"

Inconclusive at best. A lot of energy was released by the collapse of the building and fires were likely trapped underground and kept burning for days trapping heat. This could cause the same effect. It is certainly not proof that explosives were used.

(4) Incomplete & delayed investigation (guilty behaviour)

The gov't has plenty of incompetence to cover up. There is evidence that the gov't knew something like the WTC attack was going to happen but they did nothing. However, incompetence does not mean the gov't planned the event.

(5) Unusual destruction of evidence

People were primarily concerned with finding survivors and the various emergency services were not very well co-ordinated. Furthermore, it was a crime scene but everyone on the ground that day would have believed that they already knew exactly why the buildings collapsed. So the quick disposal of the steel is not surprising.

(6) Key people involved in US government being Machevellians/Straussians, of which Carl Schmitt was as well.

This is just a delusional rant that means nothing.

(7) Who is getting rich off the wars started by 911 ?

Irrelevant, every event creates opportunities for profit. There are people getting rich off global warming but does that mean they are responsible?

(8) why do you think Osama did it ? - Lets hear some of your evidence !

He claimed to do it and that is a good start but let's assume that he was just bragging. We do know that the planes were taken over by people who looked Muslim and the cockpit voice recorders captured people speaking Arabic. So there is little doubt that Muslim terrorists took over the planes and flew them into buildings. Frankly, the onus for proof here is on you.

None of your points really tell us anything about what happened. Even if they are true there are reasonable alternate explanations that don't include an inside job. More importantly, your list omits things which strongly suggest there was no inside job. The lack of collaborators coming forward is one example. The total incompetence of the Bush gov't is another as is the fact that information about missing WMDs and Abu Gharib did made it to the media.

When somone sits down and looks at all of the information available (including information that you choose to ignore), a reasonable person can only conclude that the official story is basically correct and any inconsistencies are due to a lack of accurate data or incompetence.

[jbg]

There is always uncertainty to any arguement stating that 911 was an inside job, but there are so many ways of showing this with very high certainty that it is likely to be true.

Here are some

(1) 3 buildings collapseing straight down at near freefall speed.

That is perfectly consistent with their being rammed by jets.

(2) Cheneys stad down orders

What is a "stad down order"?

(3) Evidence at base of towers after collapse

Were you there? Or did your brain suffer a concussion from being there?

(4) Incomplete & delayed investigation (guilty behaviour)

The investigation was demanded as a partisan exercise by the Democrats, who knew full well that Bush's performance in this particular disaster was more than adequate.

(5) Unusual destruction of evidence

Cleanup of a site must proceed, for the sake of reconstruction and safety. There is no need to leave it intact for the benefit of Internet trolls.

(7) Suspicious crash in Pennyslivania

(8) Suspicious crash in Pentagon

I've seen the arguments on various Internet sites and they are patently ridiculous.

(9) Past behaviour, Oklahoma, wtc93, Kennedy, Iraq war, Haiti war, Afgan war.

Slogans

(10) Clear & deliberate destructiuon of US economy underway.

I live here and we are hardly destroyed.

Now, tell me, why do you think Osama did it ?

Because he hates the West, and wants the Caliphate.

[Canadian Blue]

jbg, I think Polynewbie believes you are in an evil secret society.

Watch JBG, see how much he wants to talk about facts around 911. He belongs to a secret society just like engineers.

It's hard to find rational and logical reasoning in somebody that paranoid.

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:There is nothing unusual about buildings collapsing into their footprint. In fact, getting a building like the WTC towers to tip over would be quite difficult. I have illustrated why with a simple example. I asked you to provide a counter argument and you refused - mostly likely because you don't have one.

Your basic analysis was too frought with errors. You have only illustrated your own incompetence in basic physics, nothing more.

jbj:That is perfectly consistent with their being rammed by jets.

Its not natural for buildings to collapse into their own footprints at near freefall speed. A building collapsing into its own footprint being natural would mean that things naturally fall through the path of most resistance rather than least resistance. Two buildings were hit by planes, three collapsed, wtc7 collapse has all the characteristics of a controlled demolition and no building has ever collapsed like this without CD. There are clearly visible explosions in wtc1 & wtc2 during the collapse. Even FEMA siad the official version of the wtc7 collapse had a very low probability.

jbg:What is a "stad down order"?

Its a stand down order (you got me again). People in the Pentagon have testified in congressional hearings that Cheney repeatedy gave a stand down order for defences of the White House / Pentagon area during the attacks, yet key people from the White House were moved to safer locations.

jbg:Were you there? Or did your brain suffer a concussion from being there?

You are a sharp guy jbg, no wonder you are a lawyer giving arguement like this. As explained there is a mass of fused concrete and steel called the "meteor", there is another slab of steel that was formed by many pieces melting togather. FEMA reports evidence of sulfidization of beams that can only be explained by CD charges. Multiple bent beams that could only be bent that way from explosions.

jbg:The investigation was demanded as a partisan exercise by the Democrats, who knew full well that Bush's performance in this particular disaster was more than adequate

Thankfully the Rockefeller Democrats are there to save us from the Rockefeller Republicans. Its illegal to remove evidence from the scene of an accident before investigating.

jbg:Cleanup of a site must proceed, for the sake of reconstruction and safety. There is no need to leave it intact for the benefit of Internet trolls.

No need to question anything. Just because gov has lied about the war in Iraq and mysteriously lost 3 trillion dollars and is filled with war profiteers doesn't mean we shouldn't just close our eyes and trust them.

Are you a machiavellian jbg ?

jbg:I've seen the arguments on various Internet sites and they are patently ridiculous.

crash site spread over 8 square miles, Rumsfeld admitting that the plane was shot down by accident. Nothing to worry about. No investigation by FAA at 8 square mile crash site - first accident in history not investigated by FAA. Nothing unusual here.

jbg:I live here and we are hardly destroyed.

Automotive industry falling apart, currency supply soon doubling again after doubling once between 2001 & around 2004. Colleges and Universities stepping up programs in law enforcement & security. Police state comming into view- cameras being installed, constitution being dismantled, real estate going down, 400 trillion in derivative markets. The economic indicators keep rising because of a rising currency supply, not rising productivity.

Of course you know that society is esentially run by central bankers and their tax free think tanks, focus groups and tax free foundations. The large number of macheviallians graduating university is by no accident. The bankers want to implement their new world order. BS all you want but I know that you know this.

jbg: (re why Osama did it) Because he hates the West, and wants the Caliphate.

Did you see that on TV ? Did you read "Clash Of Civilizations" ? Did you see Brezinsky on CNN the other night talking about Iraq. He mentions "nationalism" and how it applys to Iraq and its overthrow - they cut him right off.

So these Muslims are going to attack us then ? How ? Beach invasion, bombing ? Are they going to take us over through the Muslim owned media ?

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:Inconclusive at best. A lot of energy was released by the collapse of the building and fires were likely trapped underground and kept burning for days trapping heat. This could cause the same effect. It is certainly not proof that explosives were used.

Heat required to liqify metal would not be explained by this. Heat required to fuse concrete and metal would not be explained by this. The sulfidization of beams is evidence that explosives were used. The cut beams at the bottom of the towers is indicative of explosives. The melted masses of concrete and metal is evidence of explosives. The fused metal and concrete is evidence of exploives. A beam bent into an ohmega shape with no stress fractures is evidence of high heat explosives. See 911 Mysteries Part1: Demolition

People like Judy Wood (Phd in civil & materials), Jim Hoffman (well published MIT mathematician), Stephen Jones + many others say there is a huge energy deficit that can only be explained by explosives being used.

I guess these people should be listening to you.

There is not much support for the official version - only enough to create a report.

[White Doors]

QUOTE

WhiteDoors:uhhh.. explosions do not necessarily means 'explosives'. Just one of many many fallacies in the logic of your 'arguments'.

If something isn't explosive than it can't explode. But maybe those massive explosions are caused by electrical short circuits

Gas lines?

[stignasty]

9/11 pilots' friend: I'm innocent

POSTED: 10:54 a.m. EST, January 5, 2007

HAMBURG, Germany (AP) -- A Moroccan convicted as an accessory to murder in the September 11, 2001 attacks made an emotional declaration of innocence as a court opened hearings Friday to set his sentence.

<snip>

The appeals court convicted el-Motassadeq as an accessory to the murder of 246 passengers and crew members aboard the aircraft used in the attacks, and ordered the Hamburg state court to set a new sentence.

El-Motassadeq, 32, a slight man with a long beard who has always maintained he knew nothing of the hijackers' plans, appeared relaxed for much of Friday's session, but became agitated when presiding Judge Carsten Beckmann asked if he wanted to make a statement.

"Can anyone in this room swear by God that what it is in this verdict is the truth about me?" he asked.

"I swear by God that I did know the attackers were in America," he shouted in accented German. "I swear by God that I did not know what they wanted to do."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/01/05...1.ap/index.html

Now, wouldn't you think, that if the attacks weren't carried out by fanatical terrorists, this guy would say something like "Hey, those guys you convicted me of collaborating with... they didn't do it... it was an inside job." Then again, if he did say that people would think he was nuts.

[Riverwind]

Riverwind:There is nothing unusual about buildings collapsing into their footprint. In fact, getting a building like the WTC towers to tip over would be quite difficult. I have illustrated why with a simple example. I asked you to provide a counter argument and you refused - mostly likely because you don't have one.

Your basic analysis was too frought with errors. You have only illustrated your own incompetence in basic physics, nothing more.

If that is the case then why don't you answer the question that I have asked you repeatedly:

If the top of the tower tips then something must be applying a force at a pivot point while it is tipping. What is the magnitude of the force at the pivot point and what happens if the pivot point is not capable of applying a force of this magnitude?

The answer is the force must be equal to the weight of the building and that the pivot point will collapse if it cannot apply that force. Once the pivot point collapses the building must move straight down because there is no force acting on it other than gravity.

Go ahead - evade the question again. You aren't fooling anyone with unsupported rants about a 'bad analysis'.

People like Judy Wood (Phd in civil & materials), Jim Hoffman (well published MIT mathematician), Stephen Jones + many others say there is a huge energy deficit that can only be explained by explosives being used.

Can only be explained? I don't think so. There are so many variables such as the distribution of burning material inside the building and the exact geometry of the collapsed structure. This argument is an interesting discussion point but at the end of the day it is simply not possible to prove that the only explaination for the observations is an explosion.

[kimmy]

I love how PolyNewbie's (alleged) electrical engineering degree has turned into a "degree in applied physics". It has a nice symmetry with the way other Truthies' qualifications mysteriously inflate, like how Fetzer somehow morphed from a philosophy professor into a theoretical physicist.

I run on word of mouth. Plus I invent new stuff.

Well, here's two things we can all agree with, at least.

I was even on wiki at one time but emailed them to take it off.

This reminds me of the woman who bills himself as an FDA-recognized expert because she posted her goofy theory in a message on a comments-section of an FDA article.

-k

[Riverwind]

It has a nice symmetry with the way other Truthies' qualifications mysteriously inflate, like how Fetzer somehow morphed from a philosophy professor into a theoretical physicist.

PN made this claim:

Jim Hoffman (well published MIT mathematician)

A little research and you discover that this guy is a software engineer by profession and his experience with theoretical physics seems to come from working as a coder for real scientists that wanted to prove their theories. He is most definitely not a mathematician and has no association with MIT other than he happened to work with some MIT people on a few projects. I could not find out whether Jim Hoffman actually had a degree in engineering or if he is one of those self-taught computer programmers.

Anyways I found this funny analysis of the truthie credentials (sorry for the long quote - it is so humoursly written I did not want break it up).

I compiled the list of members and categorized them by specialty, position and institution, which actually was rather difficult. Oddly enough many of the members don't list their qualifications or university, which is quite strange, since every professor I have ever met is more than happy to go on for hours about their academic credentials.

I came up with a list of 76 members, expecting it to be full of Ivy League engineers and distinguished Middle Eastern scholars, experts bent on proving that the US government, and not Osama bin Laden attacked the World Trade Centers. I was wrong.

Out of the 76 "experts" the most common academic discipline was philosophy, with 9 members, including a co-founder. Since 7 members did not even list an academic discipline, this was 1/7 of their credentialed membership. English/literature and psychology came in next with 5 members each. Even theology and "humanities" came in with 4 and 3 members respectively. Among actual scientific fields, physics was way in front, with 5 members, including the aforementioned Dr. Jones. I am not sure as to their academic credentials though, at least one of the "physicists", Jeffrey Farrer, isn't even a professor, he is a lab manager at BYU. One has to wonder whether Steven Jones' janitor is also listed as an associate member?

So how many engineers do they have? Out of the 76, a grand total of 2. Jean-Pierre Petit, a French aeronautical engineer, who despite the obvious handicap of being French actually seems to have a relevant qualification. Curiously enough though, he doesn't seem to have written a single word on 9/11. He has written though, on a mysterious plot by the US military to bomb Jupiter with anti-matter weapons!

The second engineer is Judy Wood, who has been mentioned in the comments here for her bizarre billiard ball from the top of the World Trade Center theory. OK, Ms. Wood is an actual Mechanical Engineer at Clemson, but thus far her work has been primarily focused on the stresses of dentistry. A fascinating field no doubt, but hardly relevant to planes crashing into buildings.

So how many structural engineers are listed? Absolutely zero. How many experts in Middle Eastern studies, or the Arabic language? Also zero. But they do have a professor of social work!

So I thought, maybe I am being too narrow minded? Maybe these are just America's best and brightest minds, even if they are working out of their fields of specialty. Noam Chomsky at least, regardless of what you think of his kooky politics, is a respected professor of linguistics at MIT. So I looked up this list of the top 20 universities in the world (17 located in the US) from the Economist, expecting to find the schools of our distinguished scholars to be well represented on it.

Wrong. A total of one professor, Kevin Barrett, a Professor of Folk Lore at the University of Wisconsin-Madison was represented.

Total number of "scholars" from the Ivy League, zero. Total number of "scholars" from Tunxcis Community College, one.

Source: http://www.debunking911.com/jones.htm

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:A little research and you discover that this guy is a software engineer by profession and his experience with theoretical physics seems to come from working as a coder for real scientists that wanted to prove their theories. He is most definitely not a mathematician and has no association with MIT other than he happened to work with some MIT people on a few projects. I could not find out whether Jim Hoffman actually had a degree in engineering or if he is one of those self-taught computer programmers.

You are an idiot. He has a Phd in computer graphics. He used computer graphics to interpret and solve math problems to do with molecular physics & shapes and has published in a lot of prestigious places - especially for his age.

[PolyNewbie]

kimmy:I love how PolyNewbie's (alleged) electrical engineering degree has turned into a "degree in applied physics". It has a nice symmetry with the way other Truthies' qualifications mysteriously inflate, like how Fetzer somehow morphed from a philosophy professor into a theoretical physicist.

All engineering is applied physics ! Fetzer is a theoretical physicist, well published too. All Phd's are philosophers.

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:The answer is the force must be equal to the weight of the building and that the pivot point will collapse if it cannot apply that force. Once the pivot point collapses the building must move straight down because there is no force acting on it other than gravity.

No !!! (again) It doesn't stop rotationg when the structure supporting the rotation fails - that is conservation of mementum. You really have no idea what you are talking about yet talk like you are an expert- this makes you look even more moronic.

Why don't you do a paper discrediting 911 conspiracy theories ? Get it peer reviewed. You would be the first ! Really, why are you wasting your time talking to us ? Explain why buildings collapse through the path of most resistance instead of the least resistance.

List the engineers that support the official version.