Will people of Toronto sell their votes

[jdobbin]

I think I have you both hooped as far as wildernss goes.

Seriously if Ontario was such a great powerhouse, why oh why do people decide to go out west for high paying work. I have not heard of a person that I know going out east except to catch a Leafs game. I live smack in the middle of AB and T.O. If Southern Ontario is that great why aren't they attracting labour from MB???

They have attracted labour from Manitoba. 2006 is the first year in a couple of decades where Ontario didn't pretty much gain from every province.

Even Alberta loses people. Many retirees go to B.C.. Many Saskatchewan workers head back to Saskatchewan now that they have some oil money there to attract them back.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/061221/d061221d.htm

[geoffrey]

Even Alberta loses people.

It's a young man's province. You work hard, you make money. That's about all in Alberta.

Unless your an outdoors person, then there is reason to stick around. But if not, there is little reason to be here.

[blueblood]

Just for interest sakes, is there any links showing that the economy of Ontario is slowing down to an eventual standstill and that Alberta's is taking off. I'm just interested in seeing some facts and figures.

[geoffrey]

Just for interest sakes, is there any links showing that the economy of Ontario is slowing down to an eventual standstill and that Alberta's is taking off. I'm just interested in seeing some facts and figures.

Above all others, Alberta serves as the poster child for economic outperformance. Real economic growth there likely hit 7.5% in 2006--an impressive feat, though scarcely unprecedented for this high-growth province. Alberta stands in stark contrast to Ontario, which is home to more than 40% of national output. Not since the early 1990s recession has Ontario found itself at the back of the bus. But that's almost surely where Ontario will be when 2006 growth rates are finalized, with its muted 1.5% real GDP gain just one-fifth as fast as Alberta's.

Source: http://www.canadianbusiness.com/managing/strategy/article.jsp?content=20061225_84169_84169

You can also get the provincial GDP's for 2006, minus 2005 divided by 2006 and you've got your annual change... if you wish to verify those stats.

[Saturn]

The Gardiner Expressway/QEW serves the purpose of subsidizing property values in the outer suburbs at the expense of the city. The city has the honour of paying for the pleasure.

Let the 905 belt pay for their commute.

They should be but how exactly do you force them to? You can't stop them from coming into the city. The 905 belt gets lots of free rides on the backs of Torontonians - not just for their commute. The only way I see it is to amalgamate the whole GTA and then everyone will be paying their fair share. Of course, suburbanites wouldn't want to do it because they enjoy lots of TO services for free. The other way to do it is to entirely pay for the project through provincial/federal funds (so that Torontonians don't get with the bills for services suburbanites use for 30 years). Obviously, neither the province nor the feds will like this idea. Can you think of any reasonable ways of charging outsiders when the come in to the city? I can't.

[Saturn]

Sure it wins some votes - but remember, all these "projects" are actually initiated by the cities and their province - then they go to Ottawa to ask for co-funding. They are not Ottawa's idea so if people don't like the choice of projects, they can yell at the province.

Not true. Cities can suggest a number of projects. Then the province and the feds can pick and choose which projects to fund. Obviously, they'll fund the projects that will deliver the most votes for them in the most critical areas, regardless of the worthiness of usefulness of these projects.

[Saturn]

Seriously if Ontario was such a great powerhouse, why oh why do people decide to go out west for high paying work. I have not heard of a person that I know going out east except to catch a Leafs game. I live smack in the middle of AB and T.O. If Southern Ontario is that great why aren't they attracting labour from MB???

They have been for many decades. In the last couple of years, AB has enjoyed a great boom because of oil prices skyrocketing. This is not some sort of permanent state of affairs. Alberta's grown will slow down by a third this year alone and by more in the next few years.

[Saturn]

Above all others, Alberta serves as the poster child for economic outperformance. Real economic growth there likely hit 7.5% in 2006--an impressive feat, though scarcely unprecedented for this high-growth province. Alberta stands in stark contrast to Ontario, which is home to more than 40% of national output. Not since the early 1990s recession has Ontario found itself at the back of the bus. But that's almost surely where Ontario will be when 2006 growth rates are finalized, with its muted 1.5% real GDP gain just one-fifth as fast as Alberta's.

It's reasonable for you to compare Alberta's best year on record with Ontario's worst in 15 years.

In the last few years Alberta has done quite well. However, NFLD is expected to lead in economic growth in 2007 (must be very sad for you out there that those eastern losers in NFLD will beat you). In 2008, Ontario is expected to pull out in front (as usual). So stop gloating and be nice.

[Saturn]

then you should ask Miller why he set aside the funding.

...oh man do we have to have his name in any thread? The biggest idiot to be mayor in a long time if forever

Why exactly is he the biggest idiot? I thought Mel was the biggest idiot.

[Keepitsimple]

Sure it wins some votes - but remember, all these "projects" are actually initiated by the cities and their province - then they go to Ottawa to ask for co-funding. They are not Ottawa's idea so if people don't like the choice of projects, they can yell at the province.

Not true. Cities can suggest a number of projects. Then the province and the feds can pick and choose which projects to fund. Obviously, they'll fund the projects that will deliver the most votes for them in the most critical areas, regardless of the worthiness of usefulness of these projects.

Perhaps you can support why you think it's "not true". As I have stated before (details and link in my previous post), all the expenditures were part of the Ontario Government's "Move Ontario" program - for which I don't think Dalton's getting enough credit. Cities and Municipalities worked with the Provincial Liberals to come up with this overall plan. Ottawa has no input to the plan....but they can choose which initiatives to co-fund.....and that's quite reasonable. My main point is that Ottawa doesn't dream up these projects on their own to gain votes - they are already on the City/Provincial drawing board. It's all quite logical...if a City cannot fund an initiative on it's own, then they have to go to the Province to seek some assistance....then the province makes a plan and creates a priority list. Then, as is usually the case, the Province goes to Ottawa to see if they can get some co-funding. In the Conservatives last budget, they had put aside an amount (not sure how much) to fund transit/infrastructure initiatives - now, with the exception of the Eco-Trust intiatives (next budget) they are drawing from those funds for these projects.

Everyone except the Conservatives are saying that there will be an election. If there is no election in the short term, would you have a different opinion of these expenditures?

[Mad_Michael]

Everyone except the Conservatives are saying that there will be an election. If there is no election in the short term, would you have a different opinion of these expenditures?

Ontario has an election in November 2007. Dalton is doing his best to buy re-election like all politicans do.

[Mad_Michael]

Why exactly is he the biggest idiot? I thought Mel was the biggest idiot.

That would depend upon whether we are discussing Provincial Premier Idiots, or merely Municipal Mayor Idiots.

Two distinct subjects here.

[Mad_Michael]

My parents moved here when I was a teenager for better opportunity, which they got. I make far more than I ever would in Toronto... I have lots of friends going to school back there making $10 an hour doing clerical work with the same education I have... it's very sad looking at the state of affairs in Eastern Canada.

Look at an Ontario business or engineering grad class and see where they are taking jobs. In Alberta, the opportunities are far far greater. I'm suprised more people don't take that up.

I wouldn't move back to the 905 or to Ontario in general in the foreseeable future. It's a stagnant place, a terrible place to make your name. I'll take my inflated salary, weekends in the Rockies and clean(er) air anyday. Why would I trade that for 1/2 of the money, a much faster pace of work and living without any reward, no real wilderness nearby and thick smog.

No sir, I didn't get kicked out, I'd never go back.

I have no objections to people moving to other places in Canada where they might be better able to make a living suitable to themselves and/or their families. This is a major advantage of living in such a big country with free mobility.

What I don't understand is why so many of those people feel the need to make up crap just to show spite?

Or why people feel the need to assert that every place is inferior to the place they are at.

It does seem to suggests that someone has some unresolved 'issues'.

Ontario and Toronto are doing just fine economically. They are not dying or stagnant.

Indeed, a little stagnation might be nice for a change in Toronto in order to play catch up to the high rate of population growth that Toronto constantly suffers from.

[guyser]

Why exactly is he the biggest idiot? I thought Mel was the biggest idiot.

Apart from the fact that he comes across to me as slimey? Yea, well Mel was a funny nut to have as mayor, until his faux pas on boiling and his wifes indiscretions.

Millers first term was supported heavily thru the 905 people who did not want the island airport.They of course could not vote, but the groundswell they encouraged to defeat the competitor put him in.

The last election did not have any competition as Jane was flopping around too much at the start and well...my friend Stephen LeDrew never had a chance. (and I did not vote for him)

Too cozy to unions,too NDP for me.

[jdobbin]

It's a young man's province. You work hard, you make money. That's about all in Alberta.

Unless your an outdoors person, then there is reason to stick around. But if not, there is little reason to be here.

I disagree that there is no reason to be there after you retire. What Alberta does now to make their province a liveable province will ensure that people continue to live there long after they work.

No one can do anything about the temperature but if the province ensures that there will be homes suitable for seniors built into their planning, they will go a long way to keeping people. What 70 year old senior wants a four bedroom home with large yard if they are not capable of taking care of it? The problem is that when they sell it, they often can't buy a smaller place or a condo or move into a seniors residence anywhere nearby. That, and not having any services makes people move to senior friendly areas in B.C. or elsewhere.

[dlkenny]

This subsidy amounts to $35 from each Canadian and the $1 billion is spread over 7 or 8 years.

IMV, Harper should have cut taxes and then let the Ontario government decide whether to subsidize Toronto's transit system. After all, these improvements will increase the property values of Torontonians. They are the wants to benefit directly from this.

Of course, politically, one can imagine the conversation around the Cabinet table. Who are the non-Torontonians going to vote for?

Harper got his headline with the sexy word "billion".

I would expect that Montreal and Vancouver will be soon on the PM's schedule.

No, Alberta. He was in Edmonton today to announce $150 million into the development of a pipeline for carbon sequestration for reducing greenhouse gases. This is a good idea because it makes use of the ground which used to house oil and gas, the ground specifically that used to house natural gas is perfect for this because it simply takes the place of the gas. For anyone who doesn't know, natural gas is made up of 80% methane and methane is a greenhouse gas 10 times more potent than CO2 so by using the Natural gas and replacing it with CO2 the climate change footprint left by seepage is 10x less.

I think to an extent Harper is politicking and making promises to get votes...but who cares if he's willing to actually live up to the promises? Remember that Harper is a former Reform Party member and believes in listening to the people and reacting to the concerns of the majority. That's one of the principles the Reform/Alliance was built on. In a different light though, I think he's moved the party toward the centre and I don't think he's the scary guy that people made him out to be. Of course he wants a majority just like the liberals do so that he can actually get some things done. I doubt that he wants a majority to impose a "secret agenda" it's just that the current government is stalled and it would be a good thing to get some progress in the house of commons again.

[Saturn]

Why exactly is he the biggest idiot? I thought Mel was the biggest idiot.

That would depend upon whether we are discussing Provincial Premier Idiots, or merely Municipal Mayor Idiots.

Two distinct subjects here.

Who's the premier? Mel or Miller?

[Saturn]

Remember that Harper is a former Reform Party member and believes in listening to the people and reacting to the concerns of the majority. That's one of the principles the Reform/Alliance was built on.

Quite the opposite - Harper is a backroom dealer, who believes that people are too stupid to know what's good for them and so need to be governed someone (him) who knows what's good for them even if it's against their will or even if he has to trick them into agreeing with him. While populism was one of the main principles of Reform, Harper liked it - he is not a people person at all.