Who should have the Liberals made leader?

[leonardcohen]

Dion's English is better than Harper's French. Should the CPC have picked another leader? Obviously, yes. Who do you think they should have picked?

Is this true? I don't speak French, but I was under the impression the Stephen Harpers French was very good. As for Dion, I watched him ask a question, and his timing in English was completely off. It was a long question and by the time he was done, I couldn't figure out just what he was trying to point out.

Then Stephen Harper gave a textbook answer.

But I have to wonder, if you can't ask the question well in English, and it is important, then say it in French.

So,neither Leader speaks the others official language too well,the question is, are the French more forgiving of Harpers French or the English more forgiving of Dions' English?,or is this just a tempest in a teapot?

[Canadian Blue]

What about McKenna, Tobin, or Manley. I'm sure that if the Liberal's were to hold another leadership race, a few more interesting candidates would join.

[jbg]

Dion's main problem is his english

A bit of irony, perhaps?

But on a more substantive note, Dion is a fine leader of the LPOC for Canada. My Walter Mitty dream would be for the LPOC to follow the lead of the 1993 Tories, and then re-invent themselves as something worthwhile.

The current LPOC is a brokerage party, a "natural governing party" with a floating agenda being dictated by the wet finger in the political wind.

[jdobbin]

There isn't a person alive that would deem to lead the Liberals where the partisan jackals wouldn't attempt to link them to evil incarnate.

So it goes with politics.

At any rate, it is too early to write off Dion. As I said a few weeks ago, I think Dion is wasting his time in Ottawa. He will do more good if he gets out and speaks locally in the regions, helps to fundraise and recruits candidates. It looks like he is heeding the advice many have given him.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/dion_tour

Dion travels started last Friday in Nova Scotia and will take him as far as British Columbia. He'll spend several days in Quebec and five days in Ontario, with a stop in Manitoba. He recently visited Saskatchewan and Alberta and is planning trips to the other Atlantic provinces in the near future.

The tour will include three major speeches, the first delivered last Friday in Halifax on social justice, and may include a sneak peek at some select planks in the Liberal platform for the next election.

With Dion planning to spend as much time meeting privately with party grassroots as he does speaking at public events, strategists also hope the tour will help bind fractious Liberals into a cohesive fighting force for an election that many Grits predict will be called as early as April.

For many Liberals, the tour comes not a moment too soon. They've been fretting privately that Dion is wasting his time in the Commons' daily question period, where he's ill-suited to deliver the required 30-second bursts of hyper-partisanship.

[jdobbin]

The current LPOC is a brokerage party, a "natural governing party" with a floating agenda being dictated by the wet finger in the political wind.

And one that has made it one of the most successful political parties in the modern world.

[jbg]

The current LPOC is a brokerage party, a "natural governing party" with a floating agenda being dictated by the wet finger in the political wind.

And one that has made it one of the most successful political parties in the modern world.

True. But countries, in their political development, tend to outgrow those parties, or they split. Prime examples are the US's Federalist Party (the Democrat-Republicans split off in time for the 1796 elections, the first ones that were contested), Mexico's PRI, India's Congress Party, and the Christian Democratic Party in Italy and, I believe, West Germany. Japan and Canada are about the only countries I can think of that still have brokerage parties.

[jdobbin]

True. But countries, in their political development, tend to outgrow those parties, or they split. Prime examples are the US's Federalist Party (the Democrat-Republicans split off in time for the 1796 elections, the first ones that were contested), Mexico's PRI, India's Congress Party, and the Christian Democratic Party in Italy and, I believe, West Germany. Japan and Canada are about the only countries I can think of that still have brokerage parties.

I see no danger of the Liberals going the way of the do do bird.

[Canuck E Stan]

At any rate, it is too early to write off Dion. As I said a few weeks ago, I think Dion is wasting his time in Ottawa. He will do more good if he gets out and speaks locally in the regions, helps to fundraise and recruits candidates. It looks like he is heeding the advice many have given him.

Wasting his time in Ottawa?

If he can't make it work in Ottawa,he doesn't stand a chance outside of Ottawa.

His fundraising will get him a buck and half, and recruiting new candidates, with the polls nosediving for his personal leadership abilities, he's going to have a rough time finding noteable recruits.

He better have a translator who can translate his Flip-Flopping English.

[BC_chick]

There's nothing wrong with Dion. It's not even Harper who's sinking him (IF we are to believe online polls and conservative bloggers that is). He's being sabotaged by his own party more than anything else. None of the party's heavies put their weight behind him and many people are upset with his win.

Personally, I'm starting not to care about a majority CPC government, I think it's the only way Stevie's true colours will show. How on earth he got people to believe he's sincere when he flipped 180 degrees on key issues like the environment, is beyond me.

If it takes four years of Harper to remind us what a CPC government really cares about.... so be it. It'll do nothing but ensure another decade of Liberal victories.

[jdobbin]

Wasting his time in Ottawa?

If he can't make it work in Ottawa,he doesn't stand a chance outside of Ottawa.

His fundraising will get him a buck and half, and recruiting new candidates, with the polls nosediving for his personal leadership abilities, he's going to have a rough time finding noteable recruits.

He better have a translator who can translate his Flip-Flopping English.

Some said that Harper was wasting his time in Ottawa as well if you recall. Instead, he went out on the hustings, recruited candidates and built up party headquarters so that it was better at fundraising and party management.

As far as your comment on flip flopping. Income Trusts! Troops to Iraq!

[Martin Chriton]

What does everyone have against Iggy? He seemed decent from what I've seen.

[madmax]

He will do more good if he gets out and speaks locally in the regions, helps to fundraise and recruits candidates. It looks like he is heeding the advice many have given him.

Remember how many times Harper had to flip burgers at barbecues. This was just to prove to people he was a human.

[madmax]

He better have a translator who can translate his Flip-Flopping English.

Didn't the CPC have opposed messages in French for Quebecors then for Western Canada?

[madmax]

If it takes four years of Harper to remind us what a CPC government really cares about.... so be it. It'll do nothing but ensure another decade of Liberal victories.

I read this two ways, and it still reads like a bad dream.

[madmax]

As far as your comment on flip flopping. Income Trusts! Troops to Iraq!

Harpers flip flop with Emersons floor crossing and Cabinet Position along with the Senate appointment could well have set a record for flip flopping. I was trying to figure out if the Liberals change on the GST and NAFTA flipflops happened faster. But then they really didn't mean it when they campaigned against it. Just another lie. Then I thought about the CPCs campaign, and figured , just another lie. They never intended to do it differently either. Or certainly not until after they stack the deck.

So, a flip flop is when you actually believe something and intend to change it one way and go another.

Income Trusts are definitely a flip flop for the CPC.

[geoffrey]

Income Trusts are definitely a flip flop for the CPC.

Not to defend the Income Trusts decision, which I think everyone realises I'm greatly opposed to, flip flops are a ridiculous concept. I'd rather have a leader that looks at the current situation and determines the best course of action, instead of following a hardline platform.

GST, NAFTA, Income Trusts.

The electorate will judge their decisions at the next election.

Flip flops were a terrible creation of the political right in the US and now everyone uses the term from all political camps in Canada and the US. It's outright ridiculous.

[Mad_Michael]

I like Dion, I think he's loves Canada but the world have born leaders and Dion is not a born leader. The Liberal screwed this and should have pick someone else. Dion main problem is his english and being able to communicate with Canadians. Who do you think the Liberals should have picked??

It was pretty obvious at the Liberal Convention that they were chosing with their hearts and not their minds.

By far and away, Bob Rae ran the best campaign for the leadership, his speach was masterful and he would likely be a very strong leader against Harper. He certainly has the experience to handle the media, campaign and the pressure of the position.

That Ignatieff character totally underwhelms me.

[geoffrey]

Bob Rae?!?

He'd be more of a write off in Ontario than Dion is, and that's saying alot.

[na85]

I agree with geoffrey.

Bob Rae stands little chance of being elected. He's possibly the most reviled politician by many Ontarians.

[Mad_Michael]

Bob Rae?!?

He'd be more of a write off in Ontario than Dion is, and that's saying alot.

Not likely. Polls don't support your contention.

Besides which, you are suggesting that the Federal Liberals would lose Ontario? That is laughable.

Fact is, the Federal Liberals are strong in Ontario. Thus, to have a succesful leader one needs someone who can carry the rest of the country. During the Liberal Leadership convention, all the polls consistently put Bob Rae as the strongest candidate on a national ballot.

[geoffrey]

Fact is, the Federal Liberals are strong in Ontario.

Relative comment. To the NDP, yes, to the Conservatives, not really. They are neck and neck in Ontario according to all recent polls. That's kind of sad, poor Dion.

[Mad_Michael]

Fact is, the Federal Liberals are strong in Ontario.

Relative comment. To the NDP, yes, to the Conservatives, not really. They are neck and neck in Ontario according to all recent polls. That's kind of sad, poor Dion.

Neck and neck in Ontario? Polls can say anything apparently. I wouldn't put much stock in it. Conservative polling in Ontario rises/falls all the time - but it just isn't there on Election day. It will take many years (decades) for the Conservative Party to live down that Reform Party label here in Ontario. A party that supports anti-immigrant, anti-gay views is The Enemy in Ontario. End of sentence. Harper can downplay this feature of the contemporary Conservative party, but he can't eliminate it.

Alternatively, I suspect that it might perhaps be a crossover from Provincial politics - Ontario is due for a Provincial election in November of this year and the jockeying is already started and the Ontario Liberal party is likely to go down to defeat (many stumbles lately), with John Tory's Progressive Conservative Party presently rising in the polls and very likely to take office in November.

Btw, Ontario has a long history of splitting representation and voting federally for the opposite party that holds Queen's Park. The Ontario Liberals are likely to go down in November. That suggests that Ontario is very likely to vote Liberal in the next federal election (more liberal than the last election). That's the historical pattern here.

To bring Ontario back to the Federal Conservatives requires re-establishment of the 'progressive' element that was banished when the Reform Party took over. Until then, the Federal Conservatives just seem like "Bush-lite" from an Ontario perspective.

[marcinmoka]

Who should have the Liberals made leader?

While slightly warming up to Dion (he's intelligent, though as many have already pointed out, lacks the leadership image), but I still regret Ignatieff not being elected.

They need to get rid of the delegate system of elections. Horrible.

[geoffrey]

A party that supports anti-immigrant, anti-gay views is The Enemy in Ontario. End of sentence.

Your from Toronto right? End of sentence.

Being formerly from the 905 myself, I know people there could have an appetite for conservatism, definitely tax cuts, definitely things to make the middle class better off, and I'm sure they see that in Harper. In immigrant filled Toronto, of course we won't see the CPC make a break through. That'd be just silly. Those populations have their special interests whispered into the ears of Dion daily, why would they give that up?

The polls also show that Harper is more trusted than Dion on the terms of the environment. That's a big seller in suburbia too... and reflects that Canadians may be a little sick of 13 years of 'we were about to get started' or 'if we get one more chance we might'.

[Mad_Michael]

A party that supports anti-immigrant, anti-gay views is The Enemy in Ontario. End of sentence.

Your from Toronto right? End of sentence.

10% of Canada's population and one-third of Ontario's. Pretty much the same size as Alberta and larger than the whole block of the Atlantic Provinces combined. Toronto counts as a substantially large electoral block that has a relatively predictable voting pattern based on a half-dozen key political issues. That's all I'm saying here - nothing more, nothing less.

On the basis of Toronto's federal voting record going back for 40+ years, any mention of anti-immigrant or anti-gay is electoral suicide - in Toronto. This is 10% of the seats in Parliament. That is a simple fact, like or not.

Being formerly from the 905 myself, I know people there could have an appetite for conservatism, definitely tax cuts, definitely things to make the middle class better off, and I'm sure they see that in Harper. In immigrant filled Toronto, of course we won't see the CPC make a break through. That'd be just silly. Those populations have their special interests whispered into the ears of Dion daily, why would they give that up?

You've obviously been out of the 905 belt for a long time - with the exception of a few isolated 'white' enclaves, the 905 belt is as immigrant-driven as Toronto is.

And yes, as I have already noted, Toronto and Ontario both have long histories of support of the Progressive Conservative party (the old Big Blue Machine, for example). Fiscal conservatism sells in Ontario and can sell in Toronto too. But social conservatism is toxic in Toronto and a hard sell in Ontario generally.

That's an electoral fact. The Reform Party destroyed the old PC party and took the party off to the right on the social conservative side and that is where Ontario has drawn a line. Harper, if you will recall, only succeeded in a minority and only by promising to step back on every social conservative policy issue (which had doomed a succession of previous conservative campaigns).