Armed Chimps

[Guthrie]

I guess to make weapons, one need only be as smart as neocon war hawks

Link

Armed Chimps Draw Mixed Reviews

NRA: "Welcome to the Club!"

Neocons: "Are They Being Armed by Iran?"

by William D. Hartung

Associated Press International

NEW YORK -- February 23, 2007 -- A report in the Washington Post has revealed that chimpanzees in West Africa have been observed making spears from sticks "and using the tools to hunt small animals." The development has been cited as "the first routine production of deadly weapons ever observed in animals other than humans."

Reactions to the report were mixed. NRA spokesperson Wayne Lapierre enthusiastically embraced the news: "I say, welcome to the club! Humans aren't the only ones who need protection from threats to their homes and families. And now that animals are able to arm themselves, the gun control zealots won't be able to argue that no one needs to hunt with an AK-47."

Other analysts expressed alarm. Former UN Ambassador John Bolton said "It's clear that these chimps couldn't have developed this technology on their own. Mark my word, we will find the hand of the Iranian leadership behind this, as they try to destabilize West Africa and divert U.S. attention from their nucular program."

Vice President Cheney, who was busy provoking China during a brief trip to Asia, asserted that "nothing is off the table" as the US crafts a response to the arming of the chimps. He further argued that "this should finally put the lie to assertions by granola-eating, ankle-biting animal rights activists who claim that animals are innocent victims of human aggression."

Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Joseph Biden has a different perspective: "If the administration moves towards war with the chimps without seeking Congressional approval, they will spark a constitutional crisis."

Chimp spokesperson Howard Rubinstein termed the debate "much ado about nothing." He noted that "U.S. military spending is 600 trillion times what the chimps are spending, and spears are a poor match for tactical nuclear weapons."

In related news, Sen. Hillary Clinton argued that her term on the Senate Armed Services Committee made her "far more qualified" than her rival Sen. Barack Obama to deal with the "chimp crisis."

[Borg]

Hilarious!

Borg

[geoffrey]

From a serious, scientific type look... I hardly call this weapon use, it's tool use. They use these to poke monkey's to death hiding under rocks. When I see a chimp take down a creature beyond their physical means with a weapon, then I'll call it a weapon.

Weapon implies some sort of physical advantage gained by the user, these poking sticks don't count.

[Canadian Blue]

I loved that article.

[PolyNewbie]

Ravens use sticks in their beaks to pull insects out of holes. Parrots can be trained to eat with a fork.

[Electric Monk]

From a serious, scientific type look... I hardly call this weapon use, it's tool use. They use these to poke monkey's to death hiding under rocks. When I see a chimp take down a creature beyond their physical means with a weapon, then I'll call it a weapon.

Weapon implies some sort of physical advantage gained by the user, these poking sticks don't count.

Historically humans have used "poking sticks" as weapons for a long time, developing beyond the sharp wooden stick, to different varieties of stone and metal tips. We eventually developed long-range "poking sticks" called arrows. We even fashioned "poking sticks" completely out of metal and called them swords, some had sharp edges, some merely the sharp point. Today we mostly poke holes in each other using little bits of metal fired at high speed from a gun, trust me, poking is a highly effective way to kill.

The OP is Hilarious by the way.

[Slavik44]

From a serious, scientific type look... I hardly call this weapon use, it's tool use. They use these to poke monkey's to death hiding under rocks. When I see a chimp take down a creature beyond their physical means with a weapon, then I'll call it a weapon.

Weapon implies some sort of physical advantage gained by the user, these poking sticks don't count.

To be fair, if I beat a 6 year old over the head with a baseball bat I am still commiting assault with a weapon, regardless of my already physical superiority.

[geoffrey]

...trust me, poking is a highly effective way to kill.

I don't disagree. But this is a tool to get monkey's out of a hole, not to gain a physical advantage over an otherwise more powerful creature.

To be fair, if I beat a 6 year old over the head with a baseball bat I am still commiting assault with a weapon, regardless of my already physical superiority.

I'm not talking law, I'm talking cultural development. The reason human's invented weapons (let's take a club or spear) is because we are relatively defenseless on the open plains (where we roamed). A lion is going to kick your ass no matter how tough you are. With a spear though, we gain an advantage, becoming a more dominant species through our use of the weapon. There is no such cultural advantage to these chimps having poking sticks, they could easily and often do, kill these creatures with their bare hands. In other words, while it's a great example of tool use, it doesn't show a progression socially for chimps. It gives them no real advantage other than ease of use.

The one area where we'd see major development from the chimps would be if they used such 'spears' to begin hunting larger game allowing them to progress to a hunter-gatherer society.

[BubberMiley]

From a serious, scientific type look... I hardly call this weapon use, it's tool use. They use these to poke monkey's to death hiding under rocks. When I see a chimp take down a creature beyond their physical means with a weapon, then I'll call it a weapon.

Weapon implies some sort of physical advantage gained by the user, these poking sticks don't count.

You have the sense of humour of a vulcan.

[Electric Monk]

So in a fight between a 300lb Hells Angel and a 105 lb elderly librarian, if the librarian uses a baseball bat it's a weapon, and if the biker uses the same baseball bat it's a tool?

[Guthrie]

So in a fight between a 300lb Hells Angel and a 105 lb elderly librarian, if the librarian uses a baseball bat it's a weapon, and if the biker uses the same baseball bat it's a tool?

no, no, no ... it isn't about bikers using baseball bats on little old librarians --- it's about whether the bikers are smart enough to MAKE a baseball bat and THEN go use it on an old librarian

(of course, one never reads about the biker who is brave enough to take on a well read librarian)

[Electric Monk]

I realize that, I was asking geoffrey. I contend that a weapon can also be a tool, and vice-versa.

If that was a joke, I apologize. (Darn smilies are MIA.)

[geoffrey]

I realize that, I was asking geoffrey. I contend that a weapon can also be a tool, and vice-versa.

Of course it can be. I can use a hammer to hammer in some nails or bop someone on the noggin'.

I'm saying this is hardly exciting material... Chimps have displayed tool use in the past. The real progression would be from hunting small creatures to hunting larger game, allowing them to progress to hunter-gatherer status. I really don't see any move towards that here.

[Guthrie]

... hunter-gatherer status. I really don't see any move towards that here.

of course, you haven't seen anything but a news article --- nor are you an anthropologist -- the fact is, chimps are hunter-gatherers - see, there isn't any organizational level lower than 'hunter-gatherer' -- animals, other than man, are (most of them) hunter-gatherers - very few animals farm, engage in animal husbandry or have energy/matter replicators

[geoffrey]

of course, you haven't seen anything but a news article --- nor are you an anthropologist -- the fact is, chimps are hunter-gatherers - see, there isn't any organizational level lower than 'hunter-gatherer' -- animals, other than man, are (most of them) hunter-gatherers - very few animals farm, engage in animal husbandry or have energy/matter replicators

Your right that I'm not an anthropologist, but I've discussed this exact topic at length with an expert in primate evolution (an anthropology PhD student studying and varifying some early findings of tool use with Bonobos).

Chimps are not hunter-gatherers. That would imply a semi-permenant living area, and parties of chimps hunting large game to bring back to the group. It's the first division of labour, some hunt, some gather, some defend, ect. ect.. That's not evidenced here. There is no division of chimp labour... yet.

ONLY humans have ever been hunter-gatherers.

[Guthrie]

sure, kid yourself - just don't think you're kidding anyone else