3,500 City of Ottawa Jobs to be bilingual

[Leafless]

I have not been to Gatineau, but if that city's policy is unilingual French and Ottawa is being forced to go bilingual, I think that is unfair.

I'm for justice yet against fairness. As I mentioned, the best solution in my opinion would be for Ottawa to become a city-state, but alas because of the seperatists that is not preferable, so we live in a compermise. Gatineau is in Québec, a French-language province. Ottawa is in Ontario, officially English-speaking and unoficially bilingual, going by quotas. Why should the municipality of Gatineau be expected to go beyond provincial expectations? Ottawa is complying with Ontarian expectations, and likewise Gatineau is complying with Québec's expectations.

Ottawa is an 'officially bilingual municipality' (despite any kind of referendum concerning city of Ottawa residents) and the city of Gatineau Quebec is not. There is NO comprise concerning any kind of bilingualism policy ANYWHERE in Quebec.

But Ottawa, Ontario is not recognized provincially as being officially bilingual despite constant badgering from francophone groups.

Federal demographics see Ottawa-Gatineau linked as a federal state which is totally undemocratic with the population of Ottawa, Ontario, seen as willing accomplice, which is so far from the truth since again there has never been any type of referendum to justify this federal link.

[Kapitän Rotbart]

From what I hear, most or all public service positions beyond the junior levels are bilingual, which means that 95+% of Canadians living outside of Quebec and 50+% of Quebeckers would not qualify for them. That's 5/6 of the population. Reducing your pool of potential employees to 1/6 its original size just based on language seems pretty dumb. I presume that many of these employees are analysts, researchers, etc. who 1) never see a customer and 2) have a specialized set of skills that are in short supply.

I do not really see this as an issue. Most of our public servants are from the Ottawa area and live in Orléans. Also, I am for privatization. The federal government should outsource most of its work to companies who do not require bilingualism to all its workforce. Not because of the language issue but rather because I value efficiency, which is something no government has proven itself capable of delivering. For now, the government is still making exceptions by hiring monolingual Canadian residents where the required skills other than language are in short supply.

when the reality is French for all practical purposes is a not a commercial language of Canada.

If the federal government is trying to satisfy Quebec's political-cultural image as being 'distinct' it should do so utilizing the proper political process which it did not have much luck with in the past, rather than pursue and implement fraudulent measures.

It may not be a commercial language for the most part, but that does not mean the government should favor English over French. Both languages are equally official in the federal government. Many countries in the European Union have English as a commercial language, despite the fact that English is not an official language for the majority of these countries. Just because English is an official language in Canada does not mean that it should be "more official" than the other official language, being French.

If political-cultural issues are to be discussed, I must mention that the liberals, ever since Trudeau, have been trying to make Canada more and more bilingual nation-wide. It's the conservatives (for instance Stephen Harper) who are trying to let Québec become more and more distict. One possible solution is to let Québec have sovereignty-association like South-Tyrol has in Italy. However, I am still not sure if that is truly in the interest of most Canadians. In fact, because there are so many bilingual francophones in the Canadian government already, even if Québec has sovereignty-association, the Canadian government outside of Québec will probably conserve bilingualism just to spite you! MDR... Pretty much anywhere within 300 kilometers (180 miles) from Québec's provincial boarders in Ontario and New Brunswick and a bunch of other communities will conserve the importance of bilingualism, even if Québec does become sovereign.

Ottawa is an 'officially bilingual municipality' (despite any kind of referendum concerning city of Ottawa residents) and the city of Gatineau Quebec is not. There is NO comprise concerning any kind of bilingualism policy ANYWHERE in Quebec.

But Ottawa, Ontario is not recognized provincially as being officially bilingual despite constant badgering from francophone groups.

Federal demographics see Ottawa-Gatineau linked as a federal state which is totally undemocratic with the population of Ottawa, Ontario, seen as willing accomplice, which is so far from the truth since again there has never been any type of referendum to justify this federal link.

Ontario is unofficially bilingual. The province ensures that services are available in both languages where there is a significant francophone population (I think the cut-off line is at 8%... so if at least 8% of residents in a given part of Ontario speak French, French-language services are available). Québec, however, is not bilingual provincially (as you all know by now). For Gatineau to be a bilingual municipality in a monolingual province is like having a bilingual municipality in a monolingual country. I don't hear the Gatineau residents pressuring their town hall into becoming a bilingual municipality, so I don't even see the issue.

Just because the federal government has offices in Gatineau does not mean Gatineau should be bilingual. Federal government offices already offer service in both languages on both sides of the Ottawa river. Everyone who does their Kindergarten to high school completion has had to take language courses for both official languages, therefore for the little time an Ontarian spends in Gatineau, one should be able to manage at ease. I guess for the purpose of tourism it might be cool for Gatineau to be bilingual, but in my opinion it would be even cooler in Ottawa becomes a city-state. For the purpose of tourism, there are plenty of cool things Canada could do... like require all visible signs nation-wide to be bilingual. Would be cool for tourism. People of other countries have told me how cool they think it is that Canada is the only country to have stop signs in a language other than English.

Just wanted to say that if the federal government declares Canada an officially bilingual country, they should live up to it. They're on the right track for requiring both languages. I think it's time people realize the importance of bilingualism and make sure they have all required skills for any career they plan on getting into, including their second Canadian language. It takes a few years to learn another language without immersion, yet immersion is available in Ottawa, so someone can whip up a skill allowing them a much larger proportion of the job market at tax payers' expense. I don't understand why not everyone is rushing to sign-up lists for classes to become bilingual. Considering the skill being available at tax payers' expense, it only makes sense that bilingualism be required for government jobs because that means they wouldn't be hiring people not willing to learn a free skill.

[Leafless]

Just wanted to say that if the federal government declares Canada an officially bilingual country, they should live up to it. They're on the right track for requiring both languages.

The federal government can't declare Canada a bilingual country, its illegal.

The only way the feds could do that is if all provinces in Canada voluntarily become officially bilingual, which you will never see, so forget it.

You know it really makes me laugh with Canada's official languages.

English never required any sort of official status since it is already the majority commercial language by choice.

Official languages only served as a blatant discriminatory attempt by the federal government to try to force official bilingualism on Canada but failed miserably.

Any English speaking federal civil servant who bows to the pressures of resorting to learn French for federal employment is only jeapordizing the future of those English speakers who have no intention of bowing to federal official bilingualism for federal employment. They are supporting a dictatorial federal government.

The federal government IMO has no business outside of Quebec implementing any type of bilingual policy since all Canadian provinces outside of Quebec are majority English. Besides what federal government would possibly endanger its own entity by hiring francophone's from a province that contain a large percentage of separatist who's main goal is to break up the country.

[Kapitän Rotbart]

The federal government can't declare Canada a bilingual country, its illegal.

Illegal? Under what law? Under all federal documents, America's 51st state (the one with the maple leaf) has two official languages.

The only way the feds could do that is if all provinces in Canada voluntarily become officially bilingual, which you will never see, so forget it.

Alas it wouldn't happen, but it's the liberals' dream. I don't see the need in pressuring the western provinces into becoming bilingual, but they have little importance to me in the big picture compared to Ontario and Québec in terms of federal politics. (Most Westerners are liberal, except for Alberta and a third of BC are really conservative, so it always balances out.)

English never required any sort of official status since it is already the majority commercial language by choice.

Not true! Do you know any Canadian history? Until America had independance day, there were hardly anyone speaking any language other than French and aboriginal languages in the 51st state. Then the loyalists moved North, then when England clued in that they had all this land in North America even after losing the United States, they sent a bunch of Brits, Scots and Irishmen, quite often to teach the loyalists how to speak European English because the loyalists by then were talking like Americans! Time went by, then there was an agreement that the Francophones could explore and settle, but could not bring their language with them outside lower Canada. They explored several parts of the Western Canada and United States, and settled. That's the main reason why French is the only language spoken in certain small towns out west. Basically, French was the language of choice until the loyalists came in. Now, people want to speak English because either that is what is spoken at home or because America exports it's dollar, language and culture to the world. It's effortless for Canadians to celebrate the English language with the American mass media, yet anything available in French is on a smaller scale or quite often European, which is of a very different culture. That's why French speaking Canadians feel alone with their combination of language and culture, and do everything they can to hold on to it.

Of course with Globalization, less spoken languages disappear and a select few grow in importance, but as long as French remains part of the big four, and a third of Canadians speak French (while a quarter of Canadians speak it as a first language) and feel strongly about conserving their culture and language, it won't disappear. They were here first. Just because the loyalists came in from other states does not mean we cannot share Canada. Also, it seems that the monolingual Anglophones who are against bilingual policies want to treat the francophones the same way the early Canadians treated the aboriginals. Just because one of the two people are more numerous and speak a more important language internationally does not mean that they should choose their language over all others.

Official languages only served as a blatant discriminatory attempt by the federal government to try to force official bilingualism on Canada but failed miserably.

I'll agree to a certain extent. Bilingualism has not yet fully succeeded, and therefore is still a fail... but I see it more as a work in progress and it can still happen. The easiest way is if all provinces comply and become bilingual, but that will not likely/easily happen.

Any English speaking federal civil servant who bows to the pressures of resorting to learn French for federal employment is only jeapordizing the future of those English speakers who have no intention of bowing to federal official bilingualism for federal employment. They are supporting a dictatorial federal government.

Wow, that's a whole lot of spite! An English speaking federal civil servant who learns a new skill for the job is doing him/herself a favor. Sure if more do it, it's easier to expect the skill out of candidates, but that's a good thing. Don't you wish fed servants were more skilled? It's not going to hurt anyone.

The federal government IMO has no business outside of Quebec implementing any type of bilingual policy since all Canadian provinces outside of Quebec are majority English. Besides what federal government would possibly endanger its own entity by hiring francophone's from a province that contain a large percentage of separatist who's main goal is to break up the country.

It's firstly a bad thing to assume that francophones are seperatists. There are several anglophone seperatists in Québec aswell. Also, just because outside of Québec, Canada is predominantly English-speaking doesn't mean anything. Just like the English did, we could invite tonnes of French-speaking immigrants to populate "English Canada". The feds often employ bilingual people, regardless of where they're from. Tonnes of them are from Ontario. Also, if more anglophones become bilingual and take these jobs, you can be sure that there will be fewer seperatists in parliament, so encouraging anglophones to become bilingual might be the best thing for national unity.

In Canada you have the right to consume in your prefered domestic language, and for that to be possible, we need people who can serve in all Canadians' prefered domestic language, whether English or French. By making Canada more bilingual, you'll be able to consume government services with greater ease in your prefered domestic language accross the nation. I do not see how requiring bilingualism for federal jobs could be a bad thing. Besides, no one is forcing you to work for the government, nor to live in Ottawa, nor to even live in Canada. I don't think the current system is perfect either, but to change it, you have to play the game. Make sure you are bilingual, then get in the government, then advocate against bilingualism from within. You could even become a lobbyist. If you can convince a liberal francophone in parliament that the federal government's bilingual policies are draconian, then you're off to a good start. Good luck buddy

[Leafless]

The federal government can't declare Canada a bilingual country, its illegal.

Illegal? Under what law? Under all federal documents, America's 51st state (the one with the maple leaf) has two official languages.

How can you possibly describe Canada as being a bilingual country when the definition of bilingual is: "able to speak two languages esp. fluently."

Countries cannot talk so the word must be used in relation to a person who is able to speak two languages.

Languages fall under provincial authority and even if the federal government ever made an attempt to improperly describe the country as being bilingual, it would only be able to do so if all provinces in Canada adapted both official languages for legal usage by residents of their respective provinces.

"Canada is a bilingual country" is used, but is a totally wrong way to describe something that does not legally exist.

Federally speaking the 'official languages of Canada' is a legal commodity within the federal government but 'officially bilingual' is a poor and wrong way to describe it and is nothing more than federal propaganda to make it sound impressive.

[Leafless]

English never required any sort of official status since it is already the majority commercial language by choice.

Not true! Do you know any Canadian history? Until America had independance day, there were hardly anyone speaking any language other than French and aboriginal languages in the 51st state. Then the loyalists moved North, then when England clued in that they had all this land in North America even after losing the United States, they sent a bunch of Brits, Scots and Irishmen, quite often to teach the loyalists how to speak European English because the loyalists by then were talking like Americans! Time went by, then there was an agreement that the Francophones could explore and settle, but could not bring their language with them outside lower Canada. They explored several parts of the Western Canada and United States, and settled. That's the main reason why French is the only language spoken in certain small towns out west. Basically, French was the language of choice until the loyalists came in. Now, people want to speak English because either that is what is spoken at home or because America exports it's dollar, language and culture to the world. It's effortless for Canadians to celebrate the English language with the American mass media, yet anything available in French is on a smaller scale or quite often European, which is of a very different culture. That's why French speaking Canadians feel alone with their combination of language and culture, and do everything they can to hold on to it.

Of course with Globalization, less spoken languages disappear and a select few grow in importance, but as long as French remains part of the big four, and a third of Canadians speak French (while a quarter of Canadians speak it as a first language) and feel strongly about conserving their culture and language, it won't disappear. They were here first. Just because the loyalists came in from other states does not mean we cannot share Canada. Also, it seems that the monolingual Anglophones who are against bilingual policies want to treat the francophones the same way the early Canadians treated the aboriginals. Just because one of the two people are more numerous and speak a more important language internationally does not mean that they should choose their language over all others.

The country is English because after France lost on 'The Plains of Abraham' they relinquished all rights to Canada to Britain and therefore were insignificant but nevertheless were one of the original four founding provinces that formed Canada and were given rights concerning their own language, religion and civil law.

The Americans back then were just as British or English speaking as the loyalist.

The countries Britain, U.S. and Canada were basically an English entity and did have great influence concerning language.

[Leafless]

Any English speaking federal civil servant who bows to the pressures of resorting to learn French for federal employment is only jeapordizing the future of those English speakers who have no intention of bowing to federal official bilingualism for federal employment. They are supporting a dictatorial federal government.

Wow, that's a whole lot of spite! An English speaking federal civil servant who learns a new skill for the job is doing him/herself a favor. Sure if more do it, it's easier to expect the skill out of candidates, but that's a good thing. Don't you wish fed servants were more skilled? It's not going to hurt anyone.

No its not spite, its simply being objectionable concerning a federal government implementing its own discriminatory law to discredit the English language and its users, concerning the majority commercial language of Canada as being an artificially inferior language not suited for the federal public service.

You refer learning French as a "skill" and I refer to it as an unnecessary discriminatory imposed condition of qualifications that has no bearing on the skill of an individual but simply describes the 'totalitarian nature' of the federal government not being in line with normal democratic and freer ways of a capitalistic country.

[Leafless]

It's firstly a bad thing to assume that francophones are seperatists. There are several anglophone seperatists in Québec aswell. Also, just because outside of Québec, Canada is predominantly English-speaking doesn't mean anything. Just like the English did, we could invite tonnes of French-speaking immigrants to populate "English Canada". The feds often employ bilingual people, regardless of where they're from. Tonnes of them are from Ontario. Also, if more anglophones become bilingual and take these jobs, you can be sure that there will be fewer seperatists in parliament, so encouraging anglophones to become bilingual might be the best thing for national unity.

No one is claiming ALL Francophone's are separatist but relating to the last referendum, around 50% are.

Who are the several anglophone separatist in Quebec? If your making reference to an English group that does not want to be part of any type of Quebec separation, it is perfectly understandable and it is their right, as currently there is no political process to accommodate Quebec's potential separation wish.

You say "we could invite tonnes of French speaking immigrants to populate English Canada just like the English did."

I must ask you who is "WE", since Quebec is doing just that in its own province, mainly importing French immigrants from African countries. There was never any law barring French immigration to Canada. Your just angry because the countries so many immigrants come from, speak English rather than French.

The feds, as you say, do employ bilingual people no matter where they come, because they have to or they would be accused of discrimination, which is the case anyways as 78% of the federal public service bilingual positions are occupied by Francophone's.

http://www.hrma-agrh.gc.ca/ollo/or-ar/stud...1/index02_e.asp

[Leafless]

In Canada you have the right to consume in your prefered domestic language, and for that to be possible, we need people who can serve in all Canadians' prefered domestic language, whether English or French. By making Canada more bilingual, you'll be able to consume government services with greater ease in your prefered domestic language accross the nation.

No you are wrong.

In order for that to be accomplished, individual provinces must first become 'officially bilingual'.

If this is your personal ideology fine, but to promote it in the sense you are , it is a form of Nazism including racism.

I could understand your logic if the federal government was responsible for every one's welfare including employment, but this is NOT a communist country, it is a freer capitalistic country, so what the federal government is doing in the way of 'officially degrading the English language by law' is so totally undemocratic it is incomprehensible, but is nevertheless happening.

I think it is due time to have a national referendum on whether or not Canada wishes to retain Quebec in confederation.

[Kapitän Rotbart]

Ok, I'll agree to call Canada a country of two languages as opposed to a bilingual country, but I still find that subjective (bilingual means of two languages, which happens to be the case for Canada).

In order for that to be accomplished, individual provinces must first become 'officially bilingual'.

If this is your personal ideology fine, but to promote it in the sense you are , it is a form of Nazism including racism.

I was referring to people being able to be served by the feds nation-wide in their preferred domestic language... I am leaving provincial policies out of this because I know that the provinces would never comply to create the utopian "bilingual Canada".

Racism? Since when am I attacking a people of a given race? I have not done so yet. If you choose to work in a certain country's government, fluency in official languages is naturally required. Canada's been a little slow at requiring this. Nazism was about authoritarianism and "racial purity", which is just downright evil. Requiring a certain skill for a job is not about racial purity, and people of a given ethnicity in Canada will not disappear.

what the federal government is doing in the way of 'officially degrading the English language by law' is so totally undemocratic it is incomprehensible, but is nevertheless happening.

"Degrading the English language"? They're not lowering the importance of the English language, they're just increasing the importance of the French language. There's no subtraction, only addition. This does not make any less of the English language in Canada, it only adds to national unity... doing the only thing the feds can do without forcing the provinces into becoming bilingual.

No one is claiming ALL Francophone's are separatist but relating to the last referendum, around 50% are.

Who are these francophones? Again, assuming there are no francophones outside Québec. Only two thirds of Canada's francophones reside in Québec.

Who are the several anglophone separatist in Quebec?

I know some, and I've been told of others. They're quite the minority, but separation is more of a provincial issue than a national issue... This post is about bilingual jobs in Ottawa, and I would rather save provincial politics for another thread. My point was that there are separatists in Québec, of both languages, and that there may be a high correlation between francophones and québécois, and there's a correlation between québécois and separatists, but when you try to correlate francophones and separatists, it's suddenly not nearly as high a correlation (less than a third of Canada's francophones are separatists, making them a real minority).

Your just angry because the countries so many immigrants come from, speak English rather than French.

1. Check your spelling.

2. I was speaking hypothetically.

3. Though the second part of the statement is likely to be true, I don't actually care (in other words, I'm not angry). I'm just glad that the federal government is requiring both languages for many jobs. Each man / woman is responsible in becoming qualified for any job they consider applying.

4. I actually have no language preference, I think it's cool to meet people of different backgrounds, regardless of the languages they bring. Again, I was speaking hypothetically.

You refer learning French as a "skill" and I refer to it as an unnecessary discriminatory imposed condition of qualifications that has no bearing on the skill of an individual but simply describes the 'totalitarian nature' of the federal government not being in line with normal democratic and freer ways of a capitalistic country.

Has learning a second language hurt anyone? It makes for a more educated society. I think requiring bilingualism will make for a "smarter Canada". It's not discriminatory! Anyone who was not "born lucky" to a parent who knows both English and French that is now bilingual has had to learn a second language the hard way. Regardless of one's first language, one can achieve bilingualism. If you are saying that another group of people may find it easier to achieve bilingualism than your group of people means you are the one being racist, suggesting that your group of people is less capable than those of the other group. If you want to complain about those "born lucky" (raised in both languages), you're referring to a small minority. Undemocratic? You never chose your first language. Also, those averaging highest income in Canada are from highest to lowest: bilingual anglophones; bilingual francophones; monolingual anglophones; then monolingual francophones. The anglophones average higher income than francophones initially, and those knowing both official languages average even higher income. If anything, anglophones still have the upper hand, because it's easier for them to rise to the top due to being of the dominant culture. Francophones who were only raised in the French language have to learn the language and culture of their anglophone neighbors to meet the same success the anglophones achieve simply by learning the French language. I'm not complaining because I was born lucky, but I see the struggles on both sides and I think the anglophones have to put less effort in the end towards achieving success because their culture is already dominant in Canada's private sector. However, because English is a more widespread language, there is a higher rate of bilingual francophones than bilingual anglophones. There's nothing stopping you from increasing the bilingual anglophone population.

The Americans back then were just as British or English speaking as the loyalist.

Not according to a Canadian documentary about the Canada's English language. When loyalists came up to Canada, they sounded just like Americans.

No its not spite, its simply being objectionable concerning a federal government implementing its own discriminatory law to discredit the English language and its users, concerning the majority commercial language of Canada as being an artificially inferior language not suited for the federal public service.

English will always be required by the feds. It will always be a suitable language for federal public service. Increasing French does not decrease English!

[Leafless]

"Degrading the English language"? They're not lowering the importance of the English language, they're just increasing the importance of the French language. There's no subtraction, only addition. This does not make any less of the English language in Canada, it only adds to national unity... doing the only thing the feds can do without forcing the provinces into becoming bilingual.

Yes, it is an attack on the English language by the federal government dictating an undemocratic linguistic social policy.

This is like an automobile dealership being forced to sell his competitors automobiles along with his own.

You don't seem to understand culture is a component of race, so to force another cultures language into an existing main stream commercial language is a 'racist attack'.

This devalues common usage of the English language within the federal government public service and is also a source of confusion and a cause of dissension concerning the competitive quest for power.

There has never been a national referendum on this issue so I don't know how you can make the claim "it only adds to national unity" and forget your manipulative polls. Another area of concern is that there is virtually no controls to limit linguistic abuse relating to power.

[Leafless]

Has learning a second language hurt anyone? It makes for a more educated society. I think requiring bilingualism will make for a "smarter Canada". It's not discriminatory!

This is a matter of opinion and again you are dictating your view which is not law of the land.

This is what makes it discriminatory, a dictated one sided linguistic view in an 'official multicultural country' that is NOT 'bicultural'.

Even if the country was bicultural, it is still discriminatory since the federal governments official bilingual policy is dictated by force in a manner not consistent with the freedoms associated with a capitalistic country.

[Kapitän Rotbart]

This is a matter of opinion and again you are dictating your view which is not law of the land.

That's why I said "I think". Forums are for sharing opinions!

This is what makes it discriminatory, a dictated one sided linguistic view in an 'official multicultural country' that is NOT 'bicultural'.

Even if the country was bicultural, it is still discriminatory since the federal governments official bilingual policy is dictated by force in a manner not consistent with the freedoms associated with a capitalistic country.

I don't exactly grasp what you mean by "bicultural"... Canada has multiple cultures, and if you mean "two fully intertwined distict cultures", I'd see that as one new culture, so please explain!

Most capitalist countries have only one official language, and even if they have more than one official language, it's not a big issue. It wouldn't be an issue in Canada if Canada were a national republic, allowing the feds to run everything nation-wide and leave no freedom to the provincial gov't. But I'm sure we can agree that being a national republic would not be favorable.

This is like an automobile dealership being forced to sell his competitors automobiles along with his own.

No, because in this case both languages are domestic.

You don't seem to understand culture is a component of race, so to force another cultures language into an existing main stream commercial language is a 'racist attack'.

Firstly, language is a skill. Secondly, culture and race have their correlations, but one is not the component of another. Races can be distiguished by ethnic, hereditary traits. Culture is knowledge! Culture must be learned... people do not automatically celebrate a certain culture just because they are of a certain race. In other words, you're telling me that forcing knowledge upon others (that would otherwise only be shared between a smaller portion of the population) is racist. I will first point out that I am for education and its availability, but I am against requiring children to go to school beyond the sixth grade (they're already literate by then and those not willing to learn are waisting tax money), so I kind of agree with your logic that it is terrible to force people to study. I also know that one cannot be forced to learn (for instance parents and teachers often have to motivate students in order to reach their interest). However, requiring a certain skill from everybody in my opinion makes sense (as opposed to only requiring a given skill from people of a certain race... now that would be racism!).

Also, as I mentionned earlier, most anglophones do not need to integrate into a new culture, only learn a new language in order to optimize potential success within Canada. Francophones for the most part actually have to integrate into the dominant culture within their own country, aswell as learning a new language in order to meet the same potential.

This devalues common usage of the English language within the federal government public service and is also a source of confusion and a cause of dissension concerning the competitive quest for power.

What confusion? I think most Canadians are now aware of the skills needed to work for the federal government.

Another area of concern is that there is virtually no controls to limit linguistic abuse relating to power.

Man, did you have a bad experience? Seriously, linguistic abuse makes me think of a grammar lecture. You cannot be abused by a skill.

I'll admit there's a humongous hole in the federal government system in terms of their language policies though (I'll admit I'm not completely for their policies as a whole, but I am for a bilingual federal government). I hate how the government identifies people by their first language. In fact, I think it's the liberals who started this, but it's pretty much affected everyone. If people would not identify themselves by their first language, Canada would be a much better place. Whenever I'm asked my first language and I say both it drives them nuts!!! They want to test me in my second domestic language, which they cannot identify because I have two domestic mother tongues. Also, I've heard rumors (from biased anglophones but I would easily believe it if I had more evidence) that the feds are tougher when testing anglophones with French as a second language than when they test francophones in their English language skills. It's possible considering the already high number of francophones in the federal government who help eachother out, but this to me is just rumors. If it's true though, I will agree that there is racism within the federal government. This, however, is not the racism you were talking about in my understanding. The main reason why there are more francophones in the federal government than anglophones is because anglophones are less willing to learn the other domestic language.

However, Canadians' unwillingness to learn a second language just because it's "of another culture other than their own" disgusts me.

Also, speaking of racism... there is still skin color/nationality-based racism in Canada in the private sector... probably to a greater than language-based discrimination in the private sector.

Give a WASP two applicants, one being a WASP, the other being a Frenchman/Indian/African/etc. Both applicants have the same skills, bilingualism is not required for the job, not a CRTC-licenced employer and therefore no minority quotas... the WASP will hire the WASP due to familiarity and justify it by saying the WASP applicant was better dressed for the interview or any subjective excuse for choosing one over the other, when the two applicants presented themselves equally. This is a reality that will most likely always exist. Is it racism? It's familiarity. I can't say I agree with this... I'd rather the employer choose over the flip of a coin in the case of two equally skilled applicants. There is the reality that there are now more francophones in the federal government than anglophones, and the only way this can truly be changed is if more anglophones become bilingual and compete for those jobs. Otherwise, as you said, the federal government will be run by a bunch of francophones. If the feds ever become 100% francophone, then it may become very difficult for anglophones to ever find employment within the federal government. It's not by writing letters that this will change, it's by becoming bilingual, penetrating the government and making a difference. I wouldn't be too concerned about separatists, though, they're still a minority amongst francophones.

Here's for a silly (but relevant) comparison... Why is there a high correlation between blonde women and dental hygiensists? (For the purpose of the comparison, assume this is true.) Do you think they turn down brunettes or redheads over blondes? I doubt it, they just get more qualified blonde applicants. If only francophones apply for federal jobs, only francophones will be hired. Get the skills you need, get in there and make a difference!

[Leafless]

This is what makes it discriminatory, a dictated one sided linguistic view in an 'official multicultural country' that is NOT 'bicultural'.

Even if the country was bicultural, it is still discriminatory since the federal governments official bilingual policy is dictated by force in a manner not consistent with the freedoms associated with a capitalistic country.

I don't exactly grasp what you mean by "bicultural"... Canada has multiple cultures, and if you mean "two fully intertwined distict cultures", I'd see that as one new culture, so please explain!

If you don't exactly grasp what I mean by "bicultural", then why don't you include my full reply to the statement you submitted???????

Then maybe you would understand or make it possible for me to reply in a coherent manner.

You are purposely trying to obfuscate my replies to accommodate your constant insignificant lecturing and lowly attacks.

[Leafless]

This is like an automobile dealership being forced to sell his competitors automobiles along with his own.

No, because in this case both languages are domestic.

The point was the dealership was FORCED by government law, to sell his competitors domestically produced vehicles as in comparison to the federal government dictating and implementing an undemocratic linguistic social policy.

[Leafless]

This devalues common usage of the English language within the federal government public service and is also a source of confusion and a cause of dissension concerning the competitive quest for power.

What confusion? I think most Canadians are now aware of the skills needed to work for the federal government.

Canadians are FORCED to comply to an undemocratically implemented language policy.

Are you suggesting their is no confusion and no dissension in the ranks of the federal public service owing to the federal 'official bilingualism policy.

BWA-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.

Maybe you can tell me why Francophone's are so overly represented (represented regarding Canada's total Francophone population) in the ranks of the federal public service?

What about other Canadians from other provinces? Should they not be entitled to their FAIR SHARE of federal employment?

[Leafless]

You don't seem to understand culture is a component of race, so to force another cultures language into an existing main stream commercial language is a 'racist attack'.

Firstly, language is a skill. Secondly, culture and race have their correlations, but one is not the component of another.

Language is a component of culture and culture is a component of race.

"All languages have a system of sounds, words, and sentences that can adequately communicate the content of culture."

http://anthro.palomar.edu/language/language_1.htm

Language is only a skill if there is a demand for it, unlike the artificial demand of federal 'official bilingualism'.

Here is some more federal propaganda for you.

http://www.ocol-clo.gc.ca/faq.asp?Lang=English#q1

[Kapitän Rotbart]

If you don't exactly grasp what I mean by "bicultural", then why don't you include my full reply to the statement you submitted???????

Then maybe you would understand or make it possible for me to reply in a coherent manner.

You are purposely trying to obfuscate my replies to accommodate your constant insignificant lecturing and lowly attacks.

No, I'm trying to respond to what you say one segment at a time... I do not do this in a way to obfuscate your replies. Also, this is a forum... we're here to discuss the topic, not grade how well eachother is discussing it. As much as I believe that you're wrong about this matter and that your arguments are flawed, I would keep this to myself and I think it's unfortunate that you have to comment on the quality of my arguments on a forum. Remember, arguing over the Internet is pointless because even if you win, you still won't get a prize (http://youareretarded.ytmnd.com/), so let's just stick to the topic.

Anyway, if you still feel the issue of biculturalism is worth discussing, please elaborate. I don't really get the context, because Canada has more than two cultures.

The point was the dealership was FORCED by government law, to sell his competitors domestically produced vehicles as in comparison to the federal government dictating and implementing an undemocratic linguistic social policy.

Kids have been required to take French language classes in English language schools, yet I don't hear anyone complaining about that issue. It's also undemocratic, yet it doesn't seem to bother anyone.

Maybe you can tell me why Francophone's are so overly represented (represented regarding Canada's total Francophone population) in the ranks of the federal public service?

What about other Canadians from other provinces? Should they not be entitled to their FAIR SHARE of federal employment?

I think I explained this one already. There are mostly francophone applicants for federal jobs because there are too few bilingual anglophones applying. If there's a skewed candidate pool, there will be a skewed result. If you learn French and apply for a job in the federal government you can increase the anglophone population within those jobs. As long as there are more francophone applicants, there will be more francophone civil servants.

Fair share?! Now you're sounding communist. The doors are open to all those having the required skills. Anyone can achieve these skills, therefore no one is forbidden from working for the feds.

Language is a component of culture and culture is a component of race.

"All languages have a system of sounds, words, and sentences that can adequately communicate the content of culture."

http://anthro.palomar.edu/language/language_1.htm

Language is only a skill if there is a demand for it, unlike the artificial demand of federal 'official bilingualism'.

Here is some more federal propaganda for you.

http://www.ocol-clo.gc.ca/faq.asp?Lang=English#q1

Actually, you failed to prove your own argument. By the way, I did follow both links. The quote says languages can communicate culture.

1. The quote does not say "language can communicate the content of its culture"

2. Nor does the quote say "language cannot communicate the content of other cultures".

Seems to me that all languages can communicate the content of all cultures according to that quote. However, if you must link culture and language, I'd say it's a "many to many" relationship. A language can be spoken by people of more than one culture and people of one culture can speak many languages... even as a majority (by many I mean in this case more than one, but I use the word "many" because we're talking about relationships). Again, culture is knowledge and is independant of race. Children adopted to parents of a different racial background is the most obvious example (because they are raised in the culture of their adoptive parents). There may be tendancies, but one is not the component of another.

Language is a skill whether in demand or not. For instance, any foreign language I could speak is a skill, even if I do not need it for work. Also, I ride a unicycle (alas I cannot juggle though)... that's not useful for any job in the federal government, yet I do believe it is a skill. Cooking is also a skill, despite the fact that most government employees do not use their cooking skills on the job (possibly none do, because that work can easily be outsourced).

[Leafless]

Actually, you failed to prove your own argument. By the way, I did follow both links. The quote says languages can communicate culture.

1. The quote does not say "language can communicate the content of its culture"

2. Nor does the quote say "language cannot communicate the content of other cultures".

The point of the matter is the federal government VIOLATED their own 'Official Languages of Canada' law.

'Official Languages of Canada' Section 16(1) quite clearly states:

" English and French are the official languages of Canada and have EQUAL RIGHTS and PRIVLEDGES as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada."

It makes NO MENTION of COMPULSARY BILINGUALISM as a qualification for employment.

BTW- This thread is totally 'off topic' as it should be directed to city of Ottawa 'official bilingualism' and not federal bilingualism.

This thread was initiated to illustrate the dramatic loss of democratic rights and related city job losses pertaining to the implementation of an 'official bilingualism policy' in a majority English city. The tax payers of Ottawa had no legal recourse, such as a referendum to determine if this undemocratic language policy should have been implemented initially without the voice of the tax payers who pay the bills, in their own majority English speaking city.

I would prefer or rather DEMAND to see Ontario like Quebec, 'OFFICIALLY ENGLISH' to prevent any minority culture intervention.

[Hydraboss]

Kids have been required to take French language classes in English language schools, yet I don't hear anyone complaining about that issue. It's also undemocratic, yet it doesn't seem to bother anyone.

Careful there, you're opening up a whole new subject. My kids are forced to learn the all-but-dead bastardized version of French as of grade 4 here in Alberta. There has been huge push-back from parents regarding this, but it stands as the Alberta cirriculum. What we, as parents, have been advised to do by school administrators unofficially (you know, black trenchcoat-whispering under a bridge type of communication) is to ignore the French marks on their report cards. My wife and I simply don't make the kids do any homework or assignments in that almost-language. If they fail the course...who cares. It doesn't affect their overall marks or grade achievements.

And the federal government policy of bilingualism is discriminitory. Why don't they have mandatory language requirements for people from India, or China, or Yemen, or Kentucky? French should be restricted to Kwebek as far as funding goes, and that should only be provincial money not federal. This country is not bilingual and never will be. Why don't they quit flogging a dead horse with my tax dollars and put it to good use.

If Kwebek wants to have it's own language laws, then I can think of two scenarios where this would be acceptable:

1) Kwebek can dictate it's own language laws, and so can every other province. Welcome to Alberta. Only English allowed.

2) Kwebek separates and can dicatate it's own language laws, and so can Canada. Welcome to Canada. Only English allowed.

[geoffrey]

1) Kwebek can dictate it's own language laws, and so can every other province. Welcome to Alberta. Only English allowed.

Other than Courts and Passport offices, you'll have a hard time finding French service in Alberta.

I decided to test my theory out at the Passport office in SW Calgary, I needed to renew so I go in, speak French, they had let me speak to the only French person there. It was miraculous really, I dodged the entire line, even though anyone would realise I'm not a francophone. I filled out the French form ahead of time, spoke French to the ladies there, and whoosh, 10 minutes.

I recommend it to anyone that doesn't want to wait in the huge queues. Might not work if you've got lots of French speakers in your area and the passport officers speak French.

It's funny, the difficulty in finding French service in Alberta actually gives you little benefits here and there.

As a note to that, the office is actually designated English only as it's a satellite from the main office downtown. They had no obligation to do anything for me.

[Argus]

From what I hear, most or all public service positions beyond the junior levels are bilingual, which means that 95+% of Canadians living outside of Quebec and 50+% of Quebeckers would not qualify for them. That's 5/6 of the population. Reducing your pool of potential employees to 1/6 its original size just based on language seems pretty dumb. I presume that many of these employees are analysts, researchers, etc. who 1) never see a customer and 2) have a specialized set of skills that are in short supply.

I do not really see this as an issue.

That is because you apparently place a higher value on a manager's ability to speak both languages than on his ability to - manage. That is understandable given you appear to be a Francophone. However, we English have this anal retentive fixation on efficiency which continues to survive despite all efforts to squelch it. Fairness too.

Most of our public servants are from the Ottawa area and live in Orléans.

Silliness. The percentage of Ottawans who can pass the highest level of SLE tests is still quite small. And most of those are Francophones. Again, you clearly have no problem with all senior levels of management being French - largely Quebecers. Those of us not French and not Quebecers clearly do.

Also, I am for privatization. The federal government should outsource most of its work to companies who do not require bilingualism to all its workforce. Not because of the language issue but rather because I value efficiency, which is something no government has proven itself capable of delivering.

If you supported efficiency you would be in favour of hiring an employee or promoting an employee who was the best - as opposed to your stated preference of hiring them because they can speak both languages. This brings up the old joke about the drowning person in the pool calling out for help and the lifeguard shrugging and saying "I can't swim. But don't worry! I am bilingual!"

For now, the government is still making exceptions by hiring monolingual Canadian residents where the required skills other than language are in short supply.

Isn't that sweet. It occasionally hires someone who can actually do the job, as opposed to someone who can fumble through it, making many mistakes and poor decisions, but who can fill out his reports in both official languages.

You are for efficiency, right? Right.

Canadians. In fact, because there are so many bilingual francophones in the Canadian government already, even if Québec has sovereignty-association, the Canadian government outside of Québec will probably conserve bilingualism just to spite you!

Not possible. Antipathy towards these kinds of policies would require any government to immediately remove most bilingualism requirements - or the people would remove that government.

Just because the federal government has offices in Gatineau does not mean Gatineau should be bilingual. Federal government offices already offer service in both languages on both sides of the Ottawa river. Everyone who does their Kindergarten to high school completion has had to take language courses for both official languages, therefore for the little time an Ontarian spends in Gatineau, one should be able to manage at ease.

I don't suppose it has occured to you that there is a higher percentage of Anglos living in Gatineau than Francophones in Ottawa?

They're on the right track for requiring both languages. I think it's time people realize the importance of bilingualism and make sure they have all required skills for any career they plan on getting into, including their second Canadian language.

Naah, you don't actually have to know anything. You can be a complete idiot. You just have to be able to say stupid things in both official languages.

[Leafless]

As a note to that, the office is actually designated English only as it's a satellite from the main office downtown. They had no obligation to do anything for me.

There you go!

They were treating you as some kind of official misfit.

[Kapitän Rotbart]

Hydraboss,

What we, as parents, have been advised to do by school administrators unofficially (you know, black trenchcoat-whispering under a bridge type of communication) is to ignore the French marks on their report cards.

That's actually unfortunate. If I were raising a kid studying a compulsory foreign language (other than English or French) I'd still care about the child's language training regardless. Just because French is almost inexistant in Alberta doesn't mean that one should go carelessly about education. That's a very bad lesson to one's child! Parenting's a whole other topic, so back to official languages.

If Kwebek wants to have it's own language laws, then I can think of two scenarios where this would be acceptable:

1) Kwebek can dictate it's own language laws, and so can every other province. Welcome to Alberta. Only English allowed.

2) Kwebek separates and can dicatate it's own language laws, and so can Canada. Welcome to Canada. Only English allowed.

Whether Québec seperates from Canada or not will have little or no effect on Alberta in terms of language policies. Alberta already has only English as an official language provincially, so the only real advantage of being fluent in French is for those who think they may end up moving East, working for the feds or for certain companies who make use of that skill. However, learning French in school is still a better investment of one's time than learning a foreign language in school, even in Alberta, considering French is not a difficult language to learn compared to many other languages spoken by a large proportion of the world's population (not necessarily as a first language) and is the only language used in a very sizeable part of Canada. Even Albertans get free language training in school, meaning those who chose to not learn it should not complain about the oportunities that are taken from them.

I'm actually against provincial language laws, such as Law 101 in Québec and a similar law in BC where all signs and banners must be readible in English. I don't really see the need. If a Chinese restaurant can make enough money in Vong Kong/Vong Kouver with signs and menus only in Chinese, let them. If you are for provincial language laws, you are just as bad as Québec's provincial government.

Ontario's unofficial bilingualism is probably as good as it gets in Canada... however I wish it were easier for communities to open their own schools anywhere in Canada in their prefered language, whether domestic or foreign.

Also, I personally don't like Québec nor the fact that they get a big portion of federal funding... not because of the language issue but because they're communists!

Argus,

That is because you apparently place a higher value on a manager's ability to speak both languages than on his ability to - manage. That is understandable given you appear to be a Francophone. However, we English have this anal retentive fixation on efficiency which continues to survive despite all efforts to squelch it. Fairness too.

I'm for justice yet against fairness. If the manager does not have the required management skills nor the capacity of learning them, they should not be a manager. Just because I am prefered on the job market for skills I have worked towards (yes, I had to study English and French in school, meaning I had to learn my grammar) does not mean I'm trying to squelch efficiency.

Also, you seem to be pointing the finger as if I were "one of them". I'm just as English-speaking as you are (I'm fluent in English as of age two... I happen to be fluent in French as of the same age, but that does not make me any less of an anglophone). Adding a language does not subtract from another. If you cannot comprehend that one can be raised in two languages equally, you're worse than the feds.

If you supported efficiency you would be in favour of hiring an employee or promoting an employee who was the best - as opposed to your stated preference of hiring them because they can speak both languages. This brings up the old joke about the drowning person in the pool calling out for help and the lifeguard shrugging and saying "I can't swim. But don't worry! I am bilingual!"

Not quite. Using your example, I'd have the pool outsource the lifeguard service to a private company who would have their own policies. I'm saying those representing the gov't should be bilingual, but not necessarily those working indirectly for the government (through the private sector).

Isn't that sweet. It occasionally hires someone who can actually do the job, as opposed to someone who can fumble through it, making many mistakes and poor decisions, but who can fill out his reports in both official languages.

You are for efficiency, right? Right.

It seems that you are convinced that bilingual people have no skills beyond languages.

Not possible. Antipathy towards these kinds of policies would require any government to immediately remove most bilingualism requirements - or the people would remove that government.

According to our current system, no political party is interested in abolishing language policies... the conservatives may not add to them, but no sizeable party is suggesting we abolish them. Also, we could remove the government, but under the monarchy, we'd have to ask the Queen to do that, who would not likely remove the Canadian government over a language policy. Canada still has ridiculously low unemployment (7%)... if it rises above 30% the Queen just might intervene. Other than crying to the Queen, Canadians cannot easily overthrow the government because Canadians do not have the right to bear arms (gun control is mind control!).

I don't suppose it has occured to you that there is a higher percentage of Anglos living in Gatineau than Francophones in Ottawa?

I'm not so sure about that one... a lot of them are bilingual though.

Leafless,

They were treating you as some kind of official misfit.

Not really, they just provided service beyond the quotas. I myself am surprised that they had an employee fluent in French in Calgary. Either way, there's no harm in making the service available in French, in this case there was an employee who could serve in both languages as well as do the job... this is not compermising efficiency.

The point of the matter is the federal government VIOLATED their own 'Official Languages of Canada' law.

You make a good point. They kind of did violate their law, which is a terrible law that should be revised (like many others).

[Leafless]

The point of the matter is the federal government VIOLATED their own 'Official Languages of Canada' law.

You make a good point. They kind of did violate their law, which is a terrible law that should be revised (like many others).

Yes, I wonder how the federal government will ever retrieve billions of illegally paid tax payers dollars, over the years and respond to the injustices concerning thousands of English speaking Canadians who were denied employment (and many who lost their employment with the federal government), with the federal government because of improperly implemented discriminatory and racist federal 'official bilingualism'.