What keeps us together?

[geoffrey]

I suspect that Canada would be better off with Alberta out of the picture. Having natural resources is good of course but unfortunately they are concentrated in a couple of regions, which on one hand gives these regions a lot of bad attitude, while on the other, makes ROC dependent on those resources. Effectively, Canada's economy is technology and knowledge poor and raw materials rich. We cannot even process our own raw materials. An economy based on raw materials involves too much risk and complete lack of self-sufficiency. It's not what a developed country should have.

I really have to question your credentials as an economist if you think Canada would be better off without Alberta. Do you realise that nearly all economic growth came from Alberta last year, that without Alberta Canada would be absoultely without a doubt second rate to the rest of the world.

Canada is irrelevant and a waste of everyone's time if it's not for Alberta's oil. It's not only a massive economic power and the only economic engine of the country... but a major barginning chip when it comes to international trade. Our oil gives us power. That's about it, other than that Canada is a minor player in anything else.

[Borg]

What holds us together?

The lack of courage to separate and do it cleanly.

Kebec can leave tomorrow and good riddance.

They go with their share of the debt and ta ta! Take Ontario with them and be done - they can continue the fight without bringing the remainder of the country down.

Alberta can happily survive at present without Canada - if they leave - I am with them in a heart beat. Hell. B.C. could join - along with the other two western provinces and form a country far more capable of - dare I say it? Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

In fact as far as I am concerned the average Canuck from Ont or kebec is not much to consider - always wanting what the other province has - unable to protect his/her home without fear of prosecution - over taxed - more worried about the language spoken - and the beat goes on. Weak, ineffective, complaining, whining trash for the most part - always looking for a hand out or complaining about what is "fair or not fair".

While I served this country for many years - the longer I live the less I love it. I think it is because I see the rot in the two largest provinces getting worse and the people happily following along.

Borg

[jbg]

While I served this country for many years - the longer I live the less I love it. I think it is because I see the rot in the two largest provinces getting worse and the people happily following along.

Borg

To quote myself on another Board:

When we were ready to leave I asked her if we were nicer than the Nazi's and the Soviets. She looked at me an started to cry and gave me a big hug. She said she was so glad to be in America and was so thankful that we were out to stop all the bad governmental leaders in the world. She talked about how selfless we were and how the rest of the world is content to just sit back and talk about the bad leaders that are abusing the citizens yet they do nothing.

That was quite beautiful! We have no idea how blessed we are to live in the United states in the 21st century. I angers me when I hear people like Cindy Sheehan and her ilk call Bush a dictator or say how they would rather live in some other country. They have no clue what it is to live in constant fear and watch as the people you love are dragged away never to be seen again.

I am grateful that my family was among those migrants selected, who found a new home in this wonderful God-blessed country of Australia.

(The latter quote was from the memoirs of a family that escaped Germany right after Kristallnacht, and made it to Australia)

I have tears in my eyes as I write this. To me, it is simply unbelievable that the people lucky enough to inhabit countries such as the US, Canada, and Australia don't realize what a privilege it is. These are countries where one can do almost anything they want, make anything of themselves that their abilities allow, and say or write anything they want. I wish upon Cindy Sheehan coming upon a concentration camp full of bodies and near-dead people, whose only crime was being Jewish, being a gypsie, etc. Then, let them call Bush a dictator.

I am politically a liberal. I am ashamed to share a party registration and overall ideology with them.

[Riverwind]

whining trash for the most part - always looking for a hand out or complaining about what is "fair or not fair".

Actually, Albertans are the biggest whiners in the confederation right now with Quebec a close second. If you looking for a place with people who do the minimum amount of whining and complaining you will have to look to BC or maybe Manitoba.

[tml12]

I suspect that Canada would be better off with Alberta out of the picture. Having natural resources is good of course but unfortunately they are concentrated in a couple of regions, which on one hand gives these regions a lot of bad attitude, while on the other, makes ROC dependent on those resources. Effectively, Canada's economy is technology and knowledge poor and raw materials rich. We cannot even process our own raw materials. An economy based on raw materials involves too much risk and complete lack of self-sufficiency. It's not what a developed country should have.

I really have to question your credentials as an economist if you think Canada would be better off without Alberta. Do you realise that nearly all economic growth came from Alberta last year, that without Alberta Canada would be absoultely without a doubt second rate to the rest of the world.

Canada is irrelevant and a waste of everyone's time if it's not for Alberta's oil. It's not only a massive economic power and the only economic engine of the country... but a major barginning chip when it comes to international trade. Our oil gives us power. That's about it, other than that Canada is a minor player in anything else.

I completely agree. Can you imagine for the having Conservative Alberta premiers rather than Liberal Quebec premiers for the last 40 years? Canada would be a global powerhouse and a force to be reckoned with on the world stage.

[Borg]

While I served this country for many years - the longer I live the less I love it. I think it is because I see the rot in the two largest provinces getting worse and the people happily following along.

Borg

To quote myself on another Board:

When we were ready to leave I asked her if we were nicer than the Nazi's and the Soviets. She looked at me an started to cry and gave me a big hug. She said she was so glad to be in America and was so thankful that we were out to stop all the bad governmental leaders in the world. She talked about how selfless we were and how the rest of the world is content to just sit back and talk about the bad leaders that are abusing the citizens yet they do nothing.

That was quite beautiful! We have no idea how blessed we are to live in the United states in the 21st century. I angers me when I hear people like Cindy Sheehan and her ilk call Bush a dictator or say how they would rather live in some other country. They have no clue what it is to live in constant fear and watch as the people you love are dragged away never to be seen again.

I am grateful that my family was among those migrants selected, who found a new home in this wonderful God-blessed country of Australia.

(The latter quote was from the memoirs of a family that escaped Germany right after Kristallnacht, and made it to Australia)

I have tears in my eyes as I write this. To me, it is simply unbelievable that the people lucky enough to inhabit countries such as the US, Canada, and Australia don't realize what a privilege it is. These are countries where one can do almost anything they want, make anything of themselves that their abilities allow, and say or write anything they want. I wish upon Cindy Sheehan coming upon a concentration camp full of bodies and near-dead people, whose only crime was being Jewish, being a gypsie, etc. Then, let them call Bush a dictator.

I am politically a liberal. I am ashamed to share a party registration and overall ideology with them.

How sweet.

I do not see it as you do - despite the apparent similarities in our background.

In your lifetime maybe - in mine for sure - this country will have to make serious changes or fail.

I wonder if the people have the guts to do so?

Nope. Otherwise it would have happend by now.

Change only comes when forced - I wonder if this country can survive that change when forced - in my opinion no - in yours - I would suspect yes.

We will see. I am patient.

Borg

[jbg]

How sweet.

I do not see it as you do - despite the similarities in our background.

In your lifetime maybe - in mine for sure - this country will have to make serious changes or fail.

I wonder if the people have the guts to do so?

Nope. Otherwise it would have happend by now.

Change only comes when forced - I wonder if this country can survive that change when forced - in my opinion no - in yours - I would suspect yes.

We will see. I am patient.

Borg

I appreciate your response. Were it not for the openness of the English-speaking countries, in the 1890's to 1910's in accepting my people, the Jews, there wouldn't be a Jewish people now. It's that simple.

[mikedavid00]

But nationalism, Riverwind, is what keeps a country together. If Canadians can't all look at the Canadian flag and think one common unified theme, then Canada cannot survive long term.

I agree.

When I was a kid I was very nationalistic.

Now when I see our flag I just think of the Liberal Party Of Canada and Immigration for the third world.

I have no nationalism left in me and would probably give all my posessions to be able to move to the USA where I could be a proud member of their country and take part in true democrocy. Canada is a corrupt, immoral country IMO, however, I'm stuck with what I'm stuck with.

[mikedavid00]

I suspect that Canada would be better off with Alberta out of the picture.

That's laughable.

[Proud Canuck]

What keeps Canada together? I don't know really. Canada has never really had very good national myths. The big mythmaker of the twentieth century who basically defined how future generations would define Canada was Pierre Trudeau. Most of his myths (bilingualism, health care, just society, national social programs, smaller armed forces, multiculturalism, etc.) were designed to build on preconceived notions that Canadians had about the U.S. The idea was, if Canada is too complicated to be kept together through national myths, then Canadians should define themselves based on what they are not (American). Thus, the famous notion that every Canadian who studies Canada knows: Canadians are not Americans. Ultimately, I do not know how (outside of provincial nationalism) Canadians would define themselves if the U.S. was not our southern neighbour.

Trudeau was right! We are not Americans because we believe that every province in Canada has the right to follow a different political path from their neighbour which means that the provinces often wind up negotiating to keep Canada together while keeping their independence from Ottawa. Americans do not seem to want that kind independence. Their independance was founded on the belief that the rights of the individual take priority over the rights of the state. We Canadians do not believe in individual rights to the same extent as Americans and this is how Canadians like it. Look at the gun issue for example. Americans have the constitutional right to bear arms. In Canada, we do not want or need such a "right". We would rather have safe streets and clean drinking water.

There is also the American myth of the 'melting pot' vs the Canadian myth of the 'cultural mosaic'.

The American myth goes like this: A person emigrates to the United States and becomes an American by adopting the culture and values of his neighbours. This is often at the expense of his original culture and values.

The Canadian myth has the same immigrant coming to Canada to contribute his culture but keep his values.

The American melting is starting to show cracks. There are small but growing independence moverments in Puerto Rico, Alaska and Hawaii. Many Amercians of hispanic descent are calling Calixians, Texicans, or simply Mexican - American or Hispanics. The politicians in Washington are having a hard time understanding Americans who don't to be American anymore.

The cultural mosaic works because even Quebec Separtists want to remain a part of Canada, they just don't want to keep the status quo. The politicians in Ottawa understand this and keep negotiating with Quebec. Do not worry, Quebec will never leave Canada.

That is why Canada will last as country for many years to come.

[Borg]

What keeps Canada together? I don't know really. Canada has never really had very good national myths. The big mythmaker of the twentieth century who basically defined how future generations would define Canada was Pierre Trudeau. Most of his myths (bilingualism, health care, just society, national social programs, smaller armed forces, multiculturalism, etc.) were designed to build on preconceived notions that Canadians had about the U.S. The idea was, if Canada is too complicated to be kept together through national myths, then Canadians should define themselves based on what they are not (American). Thus, the famous notion that every Canadian who studies Canada knows: Canadians are not Americans. Ultimately, I do not know how (outside of provincial nationalism) Canadians would define themselves if the U.S. was not our southern neighbour.

Trudeau was right! We are not Americans because we believe that every province in Canada has the right to follow a different political path from their neighbour which means that the provinces often wind up negotiating to keep Canada together while keeping their independence from Ottawa. Americans do not seem to want that kind independence. Their independance was founded on the belief that the rights of the individual take priority over the rights of the state. We Canadians do not believe in individual rights to the same extent as Americans and this is how Canadians like it. Look at the gun issue for example. Americans have the constitutional right to bear arms. In Canada, we do not want or need such a "right". We would rather have safe streets and clean drinking water.

There is also the American myth of the 'melting pot' vs the Canadian myth of the 'cultural mosaic'.

The American myth goes like this: A person emigrates to the United States and becomes an American by adopting the culture and values of his neighbours. This is often at the expense of his original culture and values.

The Canadian myth has the same immigrant coming to Canada to contribute his culture but keep his values.

The American melting is starting to show cracks. There are small but growing independence moverments in Puerto Rico, Alaska and Hawaii. Many Amercians of hispanic descent are calling Calixians, Texicans, or simply Mexican - American or Hispanics. The politicians in Washington are having a hard time understanding Americans who don't to be American anymore.

The cultural mosaic works because even Quebec Separtists want to remain a part of Canada, they just don't want to keep the status quo. The politicians in Ottawa understand this and keep negotiating with Quebec. Do not worry, Quebec will never leave Canada.

That is why Canada will last as country for many years to come.

Good Lord!

You actually believe this crap?

Trudeau? I can line up 50 people to pee on his headstone in a heartbeat.

He was the worst thing to hit Canada in a long time - good thing he is gone but his damage will remain forever.

And unfortunately one of his kids is about to take over where daddy left off.

Best part is idiot Canucks who want to follow him as the next great leader.

And you say America is showing it's cracks?

I think you have been in the arctic too long.

You need to visit the "better parts" of Toronto.

Or better - perhaps you need to do the same in Montreal, Ottawa or Vancouver.

Borg

[tml12]

What keeps Canada together? I don't know really. Canada has never really had very good national myths. The big mythmaker of the twentieth century who basically defined how future generations would define Canada was Pierre Trudeau. Most of his myths (bilingualism, health care, just society, national social programs, smaller armed forces, multiculturalism, etc.) were designed to build on preconceived notions that Canadians had about the U.S. The idea was, if Canada is too complicated to be kept together through national myths, then Canadians should define themselves based on what they are not (American). Thus, the famous notion that every Canadian who studies Canada knows: Canadians are not Americans. Ultimately, I do not know how (outside of provincial nationalism) Canadians would define themselves if the U.S. was not our southern neighbour.

Trudeau was right! We are not Americans because we believe that every province in Canada has the right to follow a different political path from their neighbour which means that the provinces often wind up negotiating to keep Canada together while keeping their independence from Ottawa. Americans do not seem to want that kind independence. Their independance was founded on the belief that the rights of the individual take priority over the rights of the state. We Canadians do not believe in individual rights to the same extent as Americans and this is how Canadians like it. Look at the gun issue for example. Americans have the constitutional right to bear arms. In Canada, we do not want or need such a "right". We would rather have safe streets and clean drinking water.

There is also the American myth of the 'melting pot' vs the Canadian myth of the 'cultural mosaic'.

The American myth goes like this: A person emigrates to the United States and becomes an American by adopting the culture and values of his neighbours. This is often at the expense of his original culture and values.

The Canadian myth has the same immigrant coming to Canada to contribute his culture but keep his values.

The American melting is starting to show cracks. There are small but growing independence moverments in Puerto Rico, Alaska and Hawaii. Many Amercians of hispanic descent are calling Calixians, Texicans, or simply Mexican - American or Hispanics. The politicians in Washington are having a hard time understanding Americans who don't to be American anymore.

The cultural mosaic works because even Quebec Separtists want to remain a part of Canada, they just don't want to keep the status quo. The politicians in Ottawa understand this and keep negotiating with Quebec. Do not worry, Quebec will never leave Canada.

That is why Canada will last as country for many years to come.

Where are your statistics to show that there are growing independence movements in the U.S.? I have polls and surveys to show about the same number of Canadians and Americans support a melting pot, rather than a multicultural view of Canada. Additionally, there are quite a number of Canadians who support banning the gun registry and creating a right to bear arms (I should add there are a number of Americans who support abolishing the 2nd Amendment for that manner).

You seem to accept unconditionally the Liberal myths of Canada as complete truth. But it is indeed these myths that Trudeau tried so hard to create that have resulted in growing independence movements within Canada. Trudeau has all my respect for trying to create that dream, but the reality is that Canada has not accepted it.

[Riverwind]

You seem to accept unconditionally the Liberal myths of Canada as complete truth. But it is indeed these myths that Trudeau tried so hard to create that have resulted in growing independence movements within Canada.

There are no growing independence movements in Canada. The Quebec independence movement is stalled and the so-called Alberta independence movement is just a bunch of loud mouths talking tough because they think they are better than everyone else because Alberta is sitting on a bunch of oil. Now, I might change my opinion on the significance of the Alberta whinging if a pro-seperation party actually elects some seats.

[tml12]

You seem to accept unconditionally the Liberal myths of Canada as complete truth. But it is indeed these myths that Trudeau tried so hard to create that have resulted in growing independence movements within Canada.

There are no growing independence movements in Canada. The Quebec independence movement is stalled and the so-called Alberta independence movement is just a bunch of loud mouths talking tough because they think they are better than everyone else because Alberta is sitting on a bunch of oil. Now, I might change my opinion on the significance of the Alberta whinging if a pro-seperation party actually elects some seats.

The Quebec independence movement is not stalled. The PQ will form the next government here unless something radical happens with Charest.

In Alberta, the movement is stalled because Harper won. If Dion wins the next election and some Liberal lite leader becomes head of the Conservatives Alberta's independence movement will again grow. Additionally, you might want to check your facts...the AAP currently has seats in Alberta's legislature.

[Riverwind]

The Quebec independence movement is not stalled. The PQ will form the next government here unless something radical happens with Charest.

Last I heard the PQ is looking to avoid another referedum because the polls show that they would likely lose. Federalist Quebequers will elect a PQ gov't if they are unhappy with the alternatives - the PQ or the BQ gaining power is not necessarily a sign of support for seperation.

Also check you facts on the AAP:

Alberta Alliance Principles

9. We believe that the interests of Alberta are best served by a strong, unified, equal and democratic Canada.

Not exactly something you would expect from a seperatist party.

http://www.albertaalliance.com/

There no significant seperation movements outside of Quebec.

[tml12]

The Quebec independence movement is not stalled. The PQ will form the next government here unless something radical happens with Charest.

Last I heard the PQ is looking to avoid another referedum because the polls show that they would likely lose. Federalist Quebequers will elect a PQ gov't if they are unhappy with the alternatives - the PQ or the BQ gaining power is not necessarily a sign of support for seperation.

Also check you facts on the AAP:

Alberta Alliance Principles

9. We believe that the interests of Alberta are best served by a strong, unified, equal and democratic Canada.

Not exactly something you would expect from a seperatist party.

http://www.albertaalliance.com/

There no significant seperation movements outside of Quebec.

There are pro-sovereignty people within the AAP. In terms of Quebec, do not count out the separatists. I am most certainly not a separatist but I do believe a future referendum would be very close.

[Riverwind]

There are pro-sovereignty people within the AAP. In terms of Quebec, do not count out the separatists. I am most certainly not a separatist but I do believe a future referendum would be very close.

I would never dismiss the Quebec separatists as a threat. However, what I reject is your characterization that Canada is breaking apart at the seams with numerous independence movements. There is only one and a that has been around for a long time. It is possible that an Alberta variant could appear in the future but that depends on a lot of things including the price of oil.

[tml12]

There are pro-sovereignty people within the AAP. In terms of Quebec, do not count out the separatists. I am most certainly not a separatist but I do believe a future referendum would be very close.

I would never dismiss the Quebec separatists as a threat. However, what I reject is your characterization that Canada is breaking apart at the seams with numerous independence movements. There is only one and a that has been around for a long time. It is possible that an Alberta variant could appear in the future but that depends on a lot of things including the price of oil.

Agreed...fair enough.

Although I think you underestimate the importance of having a national myth of Canada to keep this country together.

[guyser]

It sure isn't lawyers, they do an incredible amount of damage to our society, and demand a high price for it. The problem is that there are no alternatives to the existing corrupt, arrogant and often exceptionally stupid legal system filled with judas goats who are too arrogant to see their real position in things.

National beliefs are not enough to hold a society togather. Mutual respect is a critical but missing element in our society and there is nowhere where this more obvious than how our courts and lawyers conduct their business.

Hmmm....slag the lawyers (until you need one right Poly?) even thought they do not pass laws , but merely argue them , and in the next breath tell us we need "respect" for one another.

So, when do you practice what you preach?

And you see I deleted the Lydon Larouche gobblydegook.

[g_bambino]

What keeps Canada together? I don't know really. Canada has never really had very good national myths.

We still have a thing called the Crown - it's apolitical, found in every province across the country, and part of its very purpose is to be a unifying body, a symbol of the nation. Unfortunately, because of its historical links to Britain, Quebec separatists turned it into something evil, and consequently politicians turned it into something invisible. While this country has always been a delicate union, in my interpretation of the past it seems that things really started to become much more precarious after the 1960s, when this iconoclastic dismantling of many of our long-standing national institutions, both physically and through historical revisionism, in favour of bland, hollow, political correctness, began. Certainly I'm all for change, and welcome the positive influences other cultures can bring to this country; but to erase what comes to us from the past, especially that which is stable and effective, is akin to demolishing the foundations under a house. It seems obvious that inane acts like removing the Crown, and replacing it with no tangible, lasting equivalent, has done no good for us what-so-ever.

While I definitely don't espouse a return to the days of Empire or some such tripe, I do think Canada needs to re-attach itself to some of its foundations, including the Crown, which has evolved into a distinctly Canadian institution in the decades nobody's really been paying attention to it. It alone won't save all our ills, but having a central focus, akin to the flag, but with a human incarnation instead of an inanimate piece of cloth, would greatly strengthen our weakened national resolve.