Steve awards contract without asking for bids

[Canadian Blue]

Well, Harper did send out all those letters telling governmental lobbyists he would not be following Gomery's recommendations to stop things like adscam and government paybacks from happening. They musta read something tlike this:

Hi Guys;

Thanks for the funding of my campaign, don't worry the trough is open, I will be awarding contracts directly with NO open bidding.

Please find the attached list of new programs, and old ones, that are coming open for tender, if one or mor suits, please forward to appropriate ministry for immediate rubber stamp approval.

There is also a list attached of public office appointments that are open. Should you be interested, please submit your resume to the appropriate Ministry for rubber stamp appproval, if Darrel Reid can do it, you can too.

More unsubstantiated rhetoric catchme...

Here are some of my favorite quotes from the article.

Liberal MP and defence critic Ujjal Dosanjh told the newspaper that the procurement process lacks "civilian oversight" because purchases are driven mostly by military requirements, and the Harper government may not be getting the best value for its money without considering other bids.

Why in the hell would we want military equipment to be driven by military requirments. That just doesn't make any sense.

Retired Lt.-Gen. George Macdonald, who prefers the Spartan, told the Globe and Mail that it is the only plane that meets DND requirements, and is the largest and fastest of its kind.

"To compromise on the requirements in any way would be a difficult thing to address," Macdonald is quoted as saying. "If you get something that ultimately cannot perform the job as identified by the Canadian Forces, who have the best experience in doing this, (it) would be a fundamental error in the process."

Why are they asking a military general about this, they should be asking people with absolutely no experience in the military about buying new military aircraft.

Lobbying, however, is underway by the makers of a competing aircraft, the Spanish C295, as company officials attempt to persuade DND officials to alter requirements to allow them to take part in the bid.

Why should we have to alter requirments so we can get an aircraft which isn't as capable of doing the job.

Once again I don't see the issue here, and once again it's people getting their panties tied up into a knot over nothing.

As well I highly doubt the Italian's were funding the Conservative's campaign. Shit, what kind of BS argument is their going to be next.

Once again to end this BS thread off over an ethics issue, which isn't even a REAL ETHICS ISSUE, I'll end it off with a quote from the article.

Retired Lt.-Gen. George Macdonald, who prefers the Spartan, told the Globe and Mail that it is the only plane that meets DND requirements, and is the largest and fastest of its kind.

"To compromise on the requirements in any way would be a difficult thing to address," Macdonald is quoted as saying. "If you get something that ultimately cannot perform the job as identified by the Canadian Forces, who have the best experience in doing this, (it) would be a fundamental error in the process."

[geoffrey]

When you have $3 billion to spend, just jumping in to see what value comes out of it in the long run is probably not the wisest option. There may be cases where only one company can provide the service/goods. But search and rescue helicopters is certainly not one those cases.

If it's such a certainty it should be very easy for you to provide links to SAR helicoters which would fit the bill....

Actually it's to replace the Herc and the Buffalos.

This plane: http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/c295/

Better technology and more proven than the Spartan, was lobbying the government to consider it... the government didn't even go to tender.

[Catchme]

catchme had posted: Well, Harper did send out all those letters telling governmental lobbyists he would not be following Gomery's recommendations to stop things like adscam and government paybacks from happening. They musta read something tlike this:

Hi Guys;

Thanks for the funding of my campaign, don't worry the trough is open, I will be awarding contracts directly with NO open bidding.

Please find the attached list of new programs, and old ones, that are coming open for tender, if one or mor suits, please forward to appropriate ministry for immediate rubber stamp approval.

There is also a list attached of public office appointments that are open. Should you be interested, please submit your resume to the appropriate Ministry for rubber stamp appproval, if Darrel Reid can do it, you can too.

canadian blue said: More unsubstantiated rhetoric catchme...

No actually, Harper did write a letter to 65 or so "prominent establishment figures" Aka government lobbyists saying he was not following Gomery's recommendations. Perhaps you should watch the political scene and news more often and others would not have to catch you up to speed, while enduring unwarranted and caustic remarks while doing it?

Everything, as I noted before, that I state as fact, either in a mocking or straight up way can be verified, unless of course I say it was/is my opinion. And of course the letter formatting was satire but no doubt accurate in its own way.

After all Canadians have seen Harper's backroom deals put into public action. Darrel Reid gave Harper a chunk of the Christian vote and he got his Ottawa job, which he is completely unqualified for. 12 or so unqualified people were appointed to oversee the Canadian Genetics and Reproductive Board. A Calgary company gets to train all Canadian Border Crossing Guards, Harper puts un-elected people into cabinet positions, Status of Women programs were cut and offices closed as promised of right wing lobbyists that voted for Harper. That's enough examples to prove my point I believe but if you need more I got them.

TORONTO — Prime Minister Stephen Harper doesn’t agree with some of the core recommendations Justice John Gomery made in his scathing report into the sponsorship scandal.

Harper wrote a letter to 65 prominent establishment figures who had opposed Gomery’s call for firewalls between politicians and bureaucrats.

Harper's letter

canadianblue said: Here are some of my favorite quotes from the article.

Liberal MP and defence critic Ujjal Dosanjh told the newspaper that the procurement process lacks "civilian oversight" because purchases are driven mostly by military requirements, and the Harper government may not be getting the best value for its money without considering other bids.

canadianblue said: Why in the hell would we want military equipment to be driven by military requirments. That just doesn't make any sense.

Actually, your comment does not make sense, did you mean "why in the hell would we want "the purchase of" military equipment to be driven....."? or other?

And apparently the General prefers another airplane as opposed to the un-tendered contract that was given. As you can see from your own quote from the article below, he prefers the Spartan and we are not buying it apparently. Though I may be wrong in my interpretations and I am sure someone will correct me on whether or not we are indeed buying what the military thinks it should have, but I think I am correct.

Retired Lt.-Gen. George Macdonald, who prefers the Spartan, told the Globe and Mail that it is the only plane that meets DND requirements, and is the largest and fastest of its kind.

"To compromise on the requirements in any way would be a difficult thing to address," Macdonald is quoted as saying. "If you get something that ultimately cannot perform the job as identified by the Canadian Forces, who have the best experience in doing this, (it) would be a fundamental error in the process."

CanadianBlue says: Why are they asking a military general about this, they should be asking people with absolutely no experience in the military about buying new military aircraft.

Because the civilians in question would be the elected officials who would be doing their job and it is not the military that plans our foreign affairs and future military actions, it is again our elected officals who make those decisions and that is what the military determines its needs upon.

Lobbying, however, is underway by the makers of a competing aircraft, the Spanish C295, as company officials attempt to persuade DND officials to alter requirements to allow them to take part in the bid.

candian blue says: Why should we have to alter requirments so we can get an aircraft which isn't as capable of doing the job.

Perhaps it's more able to the job and they want Canada to up its requirements?

canadianblue says: Once again I don't see the issue here, and once again it's people getting their panties tied up into a knot over nothing.

This is rather a sexist remark and brings nothing to the discussion other than female bashing.

As well I highly doubt the Italian's were funding the Conservative's campaign. Shit, what kind of BS argument is their going to be next.

How do you know that the Italian company did not? Or indeed who the shareholders are? The Vatican could even be a shareholder in the company. Have you researched your speculations of doubt to see if you are correct or is that empty rhetoric on your part? After all there is 1.5 million in undisclosed corporate donations to the CPC convention. You see that is the problem with lack of openess and accountability that is expressed by these un-tendered contracts, it makes them look corrupt, even if they're not. And Canadians have no reason to believe in the CPC's without a track record and without accountability measures in place.

canadianblue says: Once again to end this BS thread off over an ethics issue, which isn't even a REAL ETHICS ISSUE, I'll end it off with a quote from the article.

You had already quoted that portion of the article. And yes, it is a REAL ethics issue. We have a minority government with no track record giving out un-tendered contracts worth billions, with no elected official oversite.

[Canadian Blue]

Actually, your comment does not make sense, did you mean "why in the hell would we want "the purchase of" military equipment to be driven....."? or other?

And apparently the General prefers another airplane as opposed to the un-tendered contract that was given. As you can see from your own quote from the article below, he prefers the Spartan and we are not buying it apparently. Though I may be wrong in my interpretations and I am sure someone will correct me on whether or not we are indeed buying what the military thinks it should have, but I think I am correct.

WRONG:

Canada's Department of National Defence is poised to buy new search and rescue aircraft, but will look at only one bid for a $3-billion contract because of the military's strict requirements, says a newspaper report.

The Canadian Forces is considering the Italian-built Spartan C27J as the only "viable bidder" when it moves to replace Buffalo and Hercules planes currently deployed in rescue missions in Canada, according to a DND document obtained by the Globe and Mail.

Because the civilians in question would be the elected officials who would be doing their job and it is not the military that plans our foreign affairs and future military actions, it is again our elected officals who make those decisions and that is what the military determines its needs upon.

I trust a person with 30 years experience in the military more than a politician with no experience other than Army Cadets. As well the elected official's should be giving the money to the people who know how to run the military best.

This is rather a sexist remark and brings nothing to the discussion other than female bashing.

How did I bash females??? It's an expression for when people start getting pissed off over nothing, so you just got your panties tied up in a knot again.

No actually, Harper did write a letter to 65 or so "prominent establishment figures" Aka government lobbyists saying he was not following Gomery's recommendations. Perhaps you should watch the political scene and news more often and others would not have to catch you up to speed, while enduring unwarranted and caustic remarks while doing it?

Everything, as I noted before, that I state as fact, either in a mocking or straight up way can be verified, unless of course I say it was/is my opinion. And of course the letter formatting was satire but no doubt accurate in its own way.

I read the paper everyday, and so far I haven't seen anything to be particularly worried about besides government policy on the environment. As for how everything you say is "fact", I doubt it, weren't you the one that said George H Bush should be hanged.

How do you know that the Italian company did not? Or indeed who the shareholders are? The Vatican could even be a shareholder in the company. Have you researched your speculations of doubt to see if you are correct or is that empty rhetoric on your part? After all there is 1.5 million in undisclosed corporate donations to the CPC convention. You see that is the problem with lack of openess and accountability that is expressed by these un-tendered contracts, it makes them look corrupt, even if they're not. And Canadians have no reason to believe in the CPC's without a track record and without accountability measures in place.

Buddy if it's an ethics issue and your crying wolf you have to come up with that not me. This is like when the Republican's were attacking the Democrats about what they knew during the Foley scandal, absolutely hilarious!

You had already quoted that portion of the article. And yes, it is a REAL ethics issue. We have a minority government with no track record giving out un-tendered contracts worth billions, with no elected official oversite.

I guess our elected official's trust the military can make it's own decision's with regards to defense spending, imagine that. Besides, as we saw in the article no other company could meet the requirments.

After all Canadians have seen Harper's backroom deals put into public action. Darrel Reid gave Harper a chunk of the Christian vote and he got his Ottawa job, which he is completely unqualified for. 12 or so unqualified people were appointed to oversee the Canadian Genetics and Reproductive Board. A Calgary company gets to train all Canadian Border Crossing Guards, Harper puts un-elected people into cabinet positions, Status of Women programs were cut and offices closed as promised of right wing lobbyists that voted for Harper. That's enough examples to prove my point I believe but if you need more I got them.

I think their's alot more to it son, their always is and your not providing us with any information behind your rhetoric.

[Catchme]

[

b]Canadian Blue said:WRONG: provides what is supposed to be evidence below[/b]

Canada's Department of National Defence is poised to buy new search and rescue aircraft, but will look at only one bid for a $3-billion contract because of the military's strict requirements, says a newspaper report.

The Canadian Forces is considering the Italian-built Spartan C27J as the only "viable bidder" when it moves to replace Buffalo and Hercules planes currently deployed in rescue missions in Canada, according to a DND document obtained by the Globe and Mail.

Oh thats right, the retired General was rubber stamping / supporting the no contest bid, by saying they had strict guidlines, even though the Spartan, Harper seems mad for, is unproven. Sso the military is getting all the other unneeded billions of dollars worth of goodies that are on order. I mean after all, there ARE comparable aircraft, that are proven, so why this sole contract if nothing is shady? Moreoever, that actual non-retired military has remained silent.

I trust a person with 30 years experience in the military more than a politician with no experience other than Army Cadets. As well the elected official's should be giving the money to the people who know how to run the military best.

Thats nice, however, that's not the way a democratic government works, especially one with a minority status. Harper is not giving them the money he is telling them what he is buying. How much military experience has Harper again? Oh, that's right NONE!

catchme said:This is rather a sexist remark and brings nothing to the discussion other than female bashing

canadianblues said: How did I bash females??? It's an expression for when people start getting pissed off over nothing, so you just got your panties tied up in a knot again

No it's not just an expession, it's a sexist remark and a gratuitous slamming of women and nothing more.

catchme said: No actually, Harper did write a letter to 65 or so "prominent establishment figures" Aka government lobbyists saying he was not following Gomery's recommendations. Perhaps you should watch the political scene and news more often and others would not have to catch you up to speed, while enduring unwarranted and caustic remarks while doing it?

Everything, as I noted before, that I state as fact, either in a mocking or straight up way can be verified, unless of course I say it was/is my opinion. And of course the letter formatting was satire but no doubt accurate in its own way.

canadian blue said: I read the paper everyday, and so far I haven't seen anything to be particularly worried about besides government policy on the environment

Your comment does not address the comments you were supposedly answering, and apparently the sections of the paper you are reading is not the news.

canadianbluesaid: As for how everything you say is "fact", I doubt it, weren't you the one that said George H Bush should be hanged

Now there you go again, off on a tangent that has no logic to the discussion at hand or indeed my words. And blue, you are better than putting false words in people's mouths as you have done here just now and elsewhere prior, you need only embrace your inner goodness for it to shine through. I have never advocated anyone being hanged not even GHB, I do not agree with the death penalty.

catchme said: How do you know that the Italian company did not? Or indeed who the shareholders are? The Vatican could even be a shareholder in the company. Have you researched your speculations of doubt to see if you are correct or is that empty rhetoric on your part? After all there is 1.5 million in undisclosed corporate donations to the CPC convention. You see that is the problem with lack of openess and accountability that is expressed by these un-tendered contracts, it makes them look corrupt, even if they're not. And Canadians have no reason to believe in the CPC's without a track record and without accountability measures in place

canadianblue said: Buddy if it's an ethics issue and your crying wolf you have to come up with that not me.

I see you never answered the questions, nor supported your comments so I guess you do use empty rhetoric. And no, there is no crying wolf, and all the effort I see being put into trying to deflect away from these suspicious un-tendered contracts, could appear to be evidence in and of its self. Also, I will not respond to the compare with the USA it is of no relevance.

catchme said: You had already quoted that portion of the article. And yes, it is a REAL ethics issue. We have a minority government with no track record giving out un-tendered contracts worth billions, with no elected official oversite

canadianblue said: I guess our elected official's trust the military can make it's own decision's with regards to defense spending, imagine that. Besides, as we saw in the article no other company could meet the requirments.

No, it is not the case of trusting the military, Harper told them what planes were being bought and what other hardware was being bought as well. No government gives up that type of spending to the military. It would be irrational to even assume so. There are such things as budgets and spending committees you know. The articles have been clear about where the decision came from originally. And no we did not see that in the article, what we saw was them saying no other plane could meet requirements, and that has been proven to not be the case.

catchme said: After all Canadians have seen Harper's backroom deals put into public action. Darrel Reid gave Harper a chunk of the Christian vote and he got his Ottawa job, which he is completely unqualified for. 12 or so unqualified people were appointed to oversee the Canadian Genetics and Reproductive Board. A Calgary company gets to train all Canadian Border Crossing Guards, Harper puts un-elected people into cabinet positions, Status of Women programs were cut and offices closed as promised of right wing lobbyists that voted for Harper. That's enough examples to prove my point I believe but if you need more I got them.

canadianblue said: I think their's alot more to it son, their always is and your not providing us with any information behind your rhetoric.

Please refrain from calling me son or any other slurr that is an attempted silencing put down. And I have provided a good deal of information for my points with absolutely no rhetoric. Moreover, Canadians have been seeing it just as I have. One thing you are correct about though, is there is a lot more to it than that!

[Canadian Blue]

No, it is not the case of trusting the military, Harper told them what planes were being bought and what other hardware was being bought as well. No government gives up that type of spending to the military. It would be irrational to even assume so. There are such things as budgets and spending committees you know. The articles have been clear about where the decision came from originally. And no we did not see that in the article, what we saw was them saying no other plane could meet requirements, and that has been proven to not be the case.

I never read anywhere in the article Harper said that the military had to buy those specific planes.

Canada's Department of National Defence is poised to buy new search and rescue aircraft, but will look at only one bid for a $3-billion contract because of the military's strict requirements, says a newspaper report.

The Canadian Forces is considering the Italian-built Spartan C27J as the only "viable bidder" when it moves to replace Buffalo and Hercules planes currently deployed in rescue missions in Canada, according to a DND document obtained by the Globe and Mail.

Oh thats right, the retired General was rubber stamping / supporting the no contest bid, by saying they had strict guidlines, even though the Spartan, Harper seems mad for, is unproven. Sso the military is getting all the other unneeded billions of dollars worth of goodies that are on order. I mean after all, there ARE comparable aircraft, that are proven, so why this sole contract if nothing is shady? Moreoever, that actual non-retired military has remained silent.

That article doesn't mention direct action's by Harper with regards to getting the aircraft, it was more about civilian oversight than anything else.

The non retired military is not allowed to send letters or make political statements to the media. Usually we have Public Relation's Officers for that.

Thats nice, however, that's not the way a democratic government works, especially one with a minority status. Harper is not giving them the money he is telling them what he is buying. How much military experience has Harper again? Oh, that's right NONE!

What are you basing this on?

I believe most democracies allow military official's to decide what kind of equipment is needed for military operation's. That's the most logical idea so, I hope I don't have to do this much more.

No it's not just an expession, it's a sexist remark and a gratuitous slamming of women and nothing more.

I'm not really slamming women, its a common term that many people use. Your getting your panties tied up in a know over nothing. Besides what are you going to do, send me to a camp so I can learn how to be politically correct.

I do believe your female undergarments are getting tied up in a knot!!! Is that better son.

Your comment does not address the comments you were supposedly answering, and apparently the sections of the paper you are reading is not the news.

The CBC is not news, alright......

Now there you go again, off on a tangent that has no logic to the discussion at hand or indeed my words. And blue, you are better than putting false words in people's mouths as you have done here just now and elsewhere prior, you need only embrace your inner goodness for it to shine through. I have never advocated anyone being hanged not even GHB, I do not agree with the death penalty.

But didn't you say:

If Saddam had it coming so did those who allowed him to do it, and that would be George Herbert Bush

Or was that your alternate personality.

No, it is not the case of trusting the military, Harper told them what planes were being bought and what other hardware was being bought as well. No government gives up that type of spending to the military. It would be irrational to even assume so. There are such things as budgets and spending committees you know. The articles have been clear about where the decision came from originally. And no we did not see that in the article, what we saw was them saying no other plane could meet requirements, and that has been proven to not be the case.

I never read anything in the article saying Harper told them what planes had to be bought. So once again what are you basing this all one, just your belief that Harper is some kind of kitten eater bent on destroying the world.

Back up your f%$kin argument's, honestly your about as bad as that nutbar Polynewbie. Back up your arguments, and don't use the "common knowledge" argument, because that only cement's my sense that your just acting like a dumb#ss

[Saturn]

I never read anywhere in the article Harper said that the military had to buy those specific planes.

Canada's Department of National Defence is poised to buy new search and rescue aircraft, but will look at only one bid for a $3-billion contract because of the military's strict requirements, says a newspaper report.

The Canadian Forces is considering the Italian-built Spartan C27J as the only "viable bidder" when it moves to replace Buffalo and Hercules planes currently deployed in rescue missions in Canada, according to a DND document obtained by the Globe and Mail.

That article doesn't mention direct action's by Harper with regards to getting the aircraft, it was more about civilian oversight than anything else.

Are you suggesting here that Harper or O'Connor would publicly state that the military has to buy those helicopters because they want the $3 billion to go to a conservative friendly supplier? You're nuts.

The fact that there are many helicopters which can be used for search and rescue, that the specifications have been written so that only one model can possibly satisfy them, and that they did not allow any other company to bid (these things are made to order, they don't just sit in a warehouse waiting for a buyer), is a clear indication that they are handing out a contract to whoever they want, not giving a contract to whoever can deliver the best product for the best price.

[Saturn]

Who knows. I'm not an aerial SAR expert. If the helicopters perform for the value of the contract then I don't care. If they don't, then the government has a serious issue on it's hands.

I don't think they have an issue on their hands as the helicopters will likely be delivered after they leave office and any problems will show up years after that. This is the sort of purchase that a government cannot be held responsible for. Just one more reason why you'd want to consider a lot of bids - to make it clear that you are not handing the contract to a friendly company (unless that's what you are doing) as you cannot be held responsible for the purchase.

[Canadian Blue]

Are you suggesting here that Harper or O'Connor would publicly state that the military has to buy those helicopters because they want the $3 billion to go to a conservative friendly supplier? You're nuts.

What are you talking about? None of the other bidders were able to meet the requirments brought forward by the Canadian Military. Once again the only people who are nuts on this board are the paranoid nut's who can't back up any of their claim's.

I don't think they have an issue on their hands as the helicopters will likely be delivered after they leave office and any problems will show up years after that. This is the sort of purchase that a government cannot be held responsible for. Just one more reason why you'd want to consider a lot of bids - to make it clear that you are not handing the contract to a friendly company (unless that's what you are doing) as you cannot be held responsible for the purchase.

Hold on, once again read the article.

Canada's Department of National Defence is poised to buy new search and rescue aircraft, but will look at only one bid for a $3-billion contract because of the military's strict requirements, says a newspaper report.

The Canadian Forces is considering the Italian-built Spartan C27J as the only "viable bidder" when it moves to replace Buffalo and Hercules planes currently deployed in rescue missions in Canada, according to a DND document obtained by the Globe and Mail.

The Italian-built Spartan C27J is being considered to replace Buffalo and Hercules planes in rescue missions in Canada, a report says.

(Courtesy Finmeccanica) The contract includes aircraft maintenance for 20 years.

Lobbying, however, is underway by the makers of a competing aircraft, the Spanish C295, as company officials attempt to persuade DND officials to alter requirements to allow them to take part in the bid.

Martin Sefzig, spokesperson for EADS-CASA, which makes the C295, told the newspaper that the plane is used in eight countries, while the Italian-built plane has not proven itself a search-and-rescue aircraft.

He said the company has not been allowed to show the Spanish plane to DND officials. Both planes, the Italian-built and the Spanish, cost about $30 million to $40 million each, the report says.

No mention of Harper, once again more paranoia coming from the left on this board.

As well I'm not sure how the Italian's and Alenia are "conservative" friendly. No links have yet been established.

Alenia North America Inc. is headquartered in Washington D.C. with offices in Seattle, Long Beach, Fort Worth and Ottawa, Canada. A wholly owned subsidiary of Alenia Aeronautica employing a workforce of over 300, Alenia North America's mission is to consolidate and expand the industrial and commercial presence of the Alenia Group in North America. It is the company utilized for major aeronautical programs and collaborative Joint Ventures with top-level U.S. companies.

Headquartered in Rome, Alenia Aeronautica is a company of the Finmeccanica Group. Alenia Aeronautica has revenues in excess of 1.2 billion Euros and a total work force of more than 8,600 employees. Its main activities comprise design and production of commercial and military aircraft; design and production of aerostructures for military and civil aircraft through Aeronavali, a wholly owned subsidiary; and the overall maintenance and modification of military and civil aircraft. Alenia Aeronautica is a partner of the major global aerospace groups, including Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Airbus, EADS, Dassault, BAE Systems and Vought.

[Catchme]

Well we know who will not be held accountable if things come to light that this NO BIDDING contract and it seems those that say Harper did not impliment all Gomery's because he wanted the top to be held accountable.

The federal Conservatives promised during the 2006 federal election to introduce an Accountability Act containing 52 measures, but when Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Treasury Board minister John Baird introduced Bill C-2 in April 2006, the bill only contained 30 measures and cut key federal ethics rules for the Prime Minister, Cabinet ministers, their staff and senior government officials. To see the ethics complaint that Democracy Watch has filed about Harper and Baird being dishonest by breaking their election promises and claiming that they have kept their promises, go to: Democracy Watch's December 12, 2006 news release

Harper Liar Liar Pants on Fire

[Canadian Blue]

What does this have to do with the purchase of the jets you claimed was an ethic's issue. Once you can find a link showing that the company gave the conservative's money in the last election, then we'll have a discussion.

So far all I'm hearing is partisan rhetoric from you and no real basis for your argument's. It's in violation of the rule's, your simply throwing around partisan rhetoric and trolling. I'm sure that other members would agree with this argument.

Once again, it has more to do with your attitude than anything.

Harper Liar Liar Pants on Fire

[Catchme]

What does this have to do with the purchase of the jets you claimed was an ethic's issue. Once you can find a link showing that the company gave the conservative's money in the last election, then we'll have a discussion.

So far all I'm hearing is partisan rhetoric from you and no real basis for your argument's. It's in violation of the rule's, your simply throwing around partisan rhetoric and trolling. I'm sure that other members would agree with this argument.

Once again, it has more to do with your attitude than anything.

Harper Liar Liar Pants on Fire

I am throwing around partisan rhetoric? Oh my!

It has to do with the fact that if any thing is shaddy with Harper awarding a no bid contracts, he cannot be held accountable, how is that partisan anything? And oh yes it has a basis even democracy Watch has launched an action against it.as i showed you in the link.

That is called being a watchful citizen of a country, and you can bet your boots, if the Liberals had just awarded several no bid contrats while making accountability laws that excluded the PM and the upper echelons, people including myself would be screaming, especially people on the right. I certainly think you would be Canadian Blue would you not?

I think your being partisan by giving Harper a pass on both awarding no bid contracts and on the ethics and accountability issues. Does that mean your trolling? No.

[Canadian Blue]

I am throwing around partisan rhetoric? Oh my!

It has to do with the fact that if any thing is shaddy with Harper awarding a no bid contracts, he cannot be held accountable, how is that partisan anything? And oh yes it has a basis even democracy Watch has launched an action against it.as i showed you in the link.

They make no mention with regards to the military contract we have been discussing.

That is called being a watchful citizen of a country, and you can bet your boots, if the Liberals had just awarded several no bid contrats while making accountability laws that excluded the PM and the upper echelons, people including myself would be screaming, especially people on the right. I certainly think you would be Canadian Blue would you not?

Harper's name doesen't appear once in the article with reference to the contract for the aircraft. No link has been shown between the company and the conservative's that would be cause for concern. As well the resign why their have been no other bidder is due to the requirments the military has brought forward, and so far the Italian aircraft is the only one which can be bought. The conservatives haven't awarded a no bid contract.

Here is the article in full:

Canada's Department of National Defence is poised to buy new search and rescue aircraft, but will look at only one bid for a $3-billion contract because of the military's strict requirements, says a newspaper report.

The Canadian Forces is considering the Italian-built Spartan C27J as the only "viable bidder" when it moves to replace Buffalo and Hercules planes currently deployed in rescue missions in Canada, according to a DND document obtained by the Globe and Mail.

The Italian-built Spartan C27J is being considered to replace Buffalo and Hercules planes in rescue missions in Canada, a report says.

(Courtesy Finmeccanica) The contract includes aircraft maintenance for 20 years.

Lobbying, however, is underway by the makers of a competing aircraft, the Spanish C295, as company officials attempt to persuade DND officials to alter requirements to allow them to take part in the bid.

Martin Sefzig, spokesperson for EADS-CASA, which makes the C295, told the newspaper that the plane is used in eight countries, while the Italian-built plane has not proven itself a search-and-rescue aircraft.

He said the company has not been allowed to show the Spanish plane to DND officials. Both planes, the Italian-built and the Spanish, cost about $30 million to $40 million each, the report says.

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Retired Lt.-Gen. George Macdonald, who prefers the Spartan, told the Globe and Mail that it is the only plane that meets DND requirements, and is the largest and fastest of its kind.

"To compromise on the requirements in any way would be a difficult thing to address," Macdonald is quoted as saying. "If you get something that ultimately cannot perform the job as identified by the Canadian Forces, who have the best experience in doing this, (it) would be a fundamental error in the process."

Opposition parties have criticized Ottawa for awarding defence contracts without considering other bids.

Liberal MP and defence critic Ujjal Dosanjh told the newspaper that the procurement process lacks "civilian oversight" because purchases are driven mostly by military requirements, and the Harper government may not be getting the best value for its money without considering other bids.

The big issue coming from the opposition is civilian oversight. However, I see no evidence that Harper is secretly benefiting from this, and as of yet no ethics issues can really be raised.

I think your being partisan by giving Harper a pass on both awarding no bid contracts and on the ethics and accountability issues. Does that mean your trolling? No.

No, it mean's that I'm being logical and rational. If you look at the article, the plane is being bought by DND and CF official's who have experience in the SAR field, and know what military requirments are needed. If other plane's don't meet the requirments what is the point of having them in the bidding process.

[Who's Doing What?]

Italian? Spanish?

WTF is wrong with the military engineer corps designing their own aircraft in partnership with a CANADIAN company?

That way the military is ensured to get everything it wants and needs in an aircraft, and our tax dollars get spent on a Canadian product, which in turn also creates jobs for Canadians.

[Canadian Blue]

Italian? Spanish?

WTF is wrong with the military engineer corps designing their own aircraft in partnership with a CANADIAN company?

That way the military is ensured to get everything it wants and needs in an aircraft, and our tax dollars get spent on a Canadian product, which in turn also creates jobs for Canadians.

We have done that, and I've heard more bitching from NCO's about how we decided to go with subpar equipment from Canada instead of getting better equipment from another nation.

[Catchme]

Italian? Spanish?

WTF is wrong with the military engineer corps designing their own aircraft in partnership with a CANADIAN company?

That way the military is ensured to get everything it wants and needs in an aircraft, and our tax dollars get spent on a Canadian product, which in turn also creates jobs for Canadians.

We have done that, and I've heard more bitching from NCO's about how we decided to go with subpar equipment from Canada instead of getting better equipment from another nation.

There actually is nothing wrong with it, who's doing what, you are quite correct, that's what other nations do, and that's how they get their euipment to sell to other nations. But heck, who wants Canada to have a better economy and more job?

Canadian blue please give examples of us doing that? And calling things subpar before they get made is unusual. And if they are subpar, they either have not be tested enough, or those military personal, whom you consider to be experts, do/did not know what they are talking about when specifying what was/is needed.

[Canadian Blue]

No, I was talking to an NCO during my drivers training course about the LSVW which has also had some "Canadian" modification's done to it using 4 cylinders instead of 6. While I was driving the vehicle it would bottom out at 10km/h going uphill, easily broke down, etc. As well talking an armoured Master Corporal about the Griffon helicopters which are Canadian made, the CF could have gotten Black Hawk's instead for a fraction of the price of Griffon's, however since Griffon's were Canadian made we went with them instead. Once again this is word of mouth, however I think that we should look at buying foreign equipment, especially if that equipment can do the job and save more money.

As well how do we know any Canadian company could make these aircraft, and offer a deal as good as the one we are currently getting which meets military requirments.

And if they are subpar, they either have not be tested enough, or those military personal, whom you consider to be experts, do/did not know what they are talking about when specifying what was/is needed.

Usually it's civilian bureaucrats who have no military experience. The new government is more pro-military though, which is a good thing. Other Armed Force's often use other nation's equipment, if that equipment is better suited. This is what's happening now with regards to the purchase of new planes.

But this isn't what the discussion is about, as it is now about an apparent ethics issue.

So, can anybody give me a link or some substance to the claim that Harper and the government is in a conflict of interest over this?

[madmax]

We have done that, and I've heard more bitching from NCO's about how we decided to go with subpar equipment from Canada instead of getting better equipment from another nation.

Like what?